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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    I disagree. I have never read anything that has said only a "few" have "attempted" raiding.

    Left out in the cold? Did you even read what I wrote? I don't refuse to play with nice people that just happened to strike a nerve. I refused to play with ninjas, and assholes, why are you arguing for their sake? We would all be in a better game without them. All you have to do is be nice and try hard and no one will bother you. This is little 16 year old me back in Vanilla "Hey I would like to join your guild to raid, I have heard many good things and would love to go to MC!" Well guess what? They gave me a trial raid spot because they liked me and I was nice and tried my best!!!!!!!!!!!!

    You must have had a bad server. The trouble makers were always shamed on mine. You ninjad? You got called out in trade and people wouldn't group with you. Super racist? Callled out in trade and no groups. Quit after the first wipe on a boss? Called out. Guild hopper? Called out. Those are all undesirable traits. Back then your choice was transfer, be nice, or leave the game. Thats how it should be.

    My comment about sub losses is simple. If MoP were the casual utopia, where are so many casual players quitting? Because that design doesn't hold attention. Its short term. Its so easy, there is nothing to build up to anymore. When each new ToT wing would come out, my LFR group would complete it in the first run, with a few wipes on each boss.
    You only have to look at sites such as wowprogress.com to see that raiders are a tiny minority.

    You are only seeing things from one point of view, say you are looking for a quick heroic you ask in trade for the last dps spot two people whisper you, one you know one you don't, you naturally invite the one you know. This is where the problems start to arise unless you are part of the group it is difficult to become part of it and without being part of the group it is difficult to run any heroic or raid content. This is why they had to introduce LFD and LFR.

    In my experience calling people out creates just as many problems as it solves and it is all forgotten in the space of a few days. I do not think what results to bullying people out of the game is very helpful or desirable.

    The subs were lost during Cata not MOP, the majority during difficult period at beginning, many of those that left were so called casual and a lot of them are not coming back. Perhaps the casuals do not share your view on what is easy and what is not? Perhaps they do not agree that wiping in LFR is enjoyable?

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    From where I sit, the problem with most casual players is that they are unwilling to accept the fact that there are elements of the game that might require more effort / time than they're willing to put in, so consistently demand that nearly all things be modified to suit them.

    For them, subscription should equal access AND success. That's the problem.
    This post is ironic to me because personally I have never seen a thread on these forums asking Blizzard to nerf normal or hardmode raids. I do however see 1-3 threads each week on these forums asking Blizzard to increase the difficulty of everything in the game, threads bashing LFR players, and asking for LFR to be removed from the game.

  3. #103
    Because having the game that you enjoy replaced by a different game that largely caters to an audience that doesn't include you can be annoying? I'm not arguing about my own preferences, I'm just saying it seems pretty clear why people might be bothered by the direction WoW's been taking.

    They greatly enjoyed the game as it once was, but because they stopped being the majority, they don't get to play that game anymore. Not too difficult to see why some of them might find that at least a little bothersome. Especially when it's a game that you really enjoy, or have taken a personal investment in. It's not just irrational bickering.
    Last edited by RabidHexley; 2013-04-22 at 08:43 PM.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Justforthis123 View Post
    I wonder why some people need to write so much for such an easy answer to an obvious question.

    : Nothing.

    Why? Because what milions of people want is better than what few thousands people want.
    That line of thinking is so demented it's terrifying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Then the [MMORPG] genre started attracting more players. These players wanted more of a "game" and less of a "world" [...]

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by RabidHexley View Post
    Because having the game that you enjoy replaced by a different game that largely caters to an audience that doesn't include you can be annoying? I'm not arguing about my own preferences, I'm just saying it seems pretty clear to me why people might be bothered by the direction WoW's been taking. They greatly enjoyed the game as it once was, but because they stopped being the majority, they don't get to play that game anymore. Not too difficult to see why some of them might find that at least a little bothersome. Especially when it's a game that you really enjoy, or have taken a personal investment in. It's not just irrational bickering.
    But why is not catering to the hardcore player? Heroic raids are as, if not more, difficult as any previous raids many guilds are stuck trying to beat normal content which suggests that this is, also, more difficult. Raiders and hard core players were never the majority they just thought they were. The main difference is now casual players have access to raids via LFR which seems to be a massive problem for some players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfsage View Post
    That line of thinking is so demented it's terrifying.
    Why? As Mr spoke once said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    But why is not catering to the hardcore player? Heroic raids are as, if not more, difficult as any previous raids many guilds are stuck trying to beat normal content which suggests that this is, also, more difficult. Raiders and hard core players were never the majority they just thought they were. The main difference is now casual players have access to raids via LFR which seems to be a massive problem for some players.
    I'm not looking to rehash a discussion I've already had, but in regards to raiding it's about how the existence of options effects the player experience. It may not seem like it on a surface level, but having the option for an easier route does effect more than just players who prefer easy modes. There's a reason the developers of Dark Souls opted to not put an easy mode in the game (it's just the most recent well known example I can think of).

    'But if the person preferred more challenging options, the presence of an easy mode shouldn't effect their choice?' It's not quite that simple. It removes some of the accomplishment because completion is no longer unique. Running a challenging heroic raid isn't quite as fun or rewarding when you've already run through the same raid multiple times on an easier difficulty. Getting that feeling of progression and accomplishment (which is pretty much the majority of hardcore raiding's appeal) takes much more effort on the part of the player than it once did.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by RabidHexley View Post
    I'm not looking to rehash a discussion I've already had, but in regards to raiding it's about how the existence of options effects the player experience. It may not seem like it on a surface level, but having the option for an easier route does effect more than just players who prefer easy modes. There's a reason the developers of Dark Souls opted to not put an easy mode in the game (it's just the most recent well known example I can think of).

    'But if the person preferred more challenging options, the presence of an easy mode shouldn't effect their choice?' It's not quite that simple. It removes some of the accomplishment because completion is no longer unique. Running a challenging heroic raid isn't quite as fun or rewarding when you've already run through the same raid multiple times on an easier difficulty. Getting that feeling of progression and accomplishment (which is pretty much the majority of hardcore raiding's appeal) takes much more effort on the part of the player than it once did.
    My memory is a bit sketchy on Ulduar but every raid that has had a heroic mode has required players to complete on normal first why, with the introduction of LFR, is this suddenly a problem? Why would a heroic raider, even, need to bother with LFR?

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    My memory is a bit sketchy on Ulduar but every raid that has had a heroic mode has required players to complete on normal first why, with the introduction of LFR, is this suddenly a problem? Why would a heroic raider, even, need to bother with LFR?
    Ulduar was actually the very last raid to not have a heroic mode.

    Simply because it's there. The reward for spending however many weeks it takes to progress through a raid isn't the same when the option exists to do it today. This is all referring to progression and accomplishment. You might say that hardcore raiders need to stop being babies and stick to their corner of the game, but that doesn't change the fact that the game isn't the same. Which is all that I'm saying.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by RabidHexley View Post
    Ulduar was actually the very last raid to not have a heroic mode.

    Simply because it's there. The reward for spending however many weeks it takes to progress through a raid isn't the same when the option exists to do it today. This is all referring to progression and accomplishment. You might say that hardcore raiders need to stop being babies and stick to their corner of the game, but that doesn't change the fact that the game isn't the same. Which is all that I'm saying.
    I was talking about how the heroic versions were activated in Ulduar, I'm sure you did not need complete the normal mode first but as I said I can't quite remember.

    I don't understand why, the top heroic guilds cleared the normal modes within a week or two in the past and this never seemed to bother them, in fact many would spend time practising on the PTR before the raid was even released. It seems to me that the true hardcore players don't seem to care about lesser content and that it is the average raider who has the most issues with LFR and the main problem is now that the bads have access to content that they were previously excluded from.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I was talking about how the heroic versions were activated in Ulduar, I'm sure you did not need complete the normal mode first but as I said I can't quite remember.

    I don't understand why, the top heroic guilds cleared the normal modes within a week or two in the past and this never seemed to bother them, in fact many would spend time practising on the PTR before the raid was even released. It seems to me that the true hardcore players don't seem to care about lesser content and that it is the average raider who has the most issues with LFR and the main problem is now that the bads have access to content that they were previously excluded from.
    You're talking about players on the far end of the spectrum. But they're on a different type of level, they get realm firsts, and get to be top 300 guilds and the like. In that regard the fun is the race.

    Edit: Yes, part of the feeling of accomplishment does have to do with the fact that it's exclusive to the players capable of completing the content. Does that make it necessarily bad? I wouldn't say so. It may be just a game, but accomplishment is fun, and in a game like this it was a unique type of enjoyment. And what you're pretty much saying is to suck it up.

    Many many edits. My bad.
    Last edited by RabidHexley; 2013-04-22 at 09:50 PM.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by RabidHexley View Post
    You're talking about players on the far end of the spectrum.
    Yes? And? Isn't that the point that now there is content available for each end of the spectrum? Surely for the overall health of the game this is the best possible solution? You do not see LFR players calling for nerfs so as they can run heroic raids yet many seem to think that LFR should either be made more difficult or removed altogether.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by pretenses View Post
    I was reading the thread about WotLK, and it got me to thinking.

    Most of the complaints I read about the game are about how the game is too easy, or that it's directed at the 'casual' player. Why? I just don't get it.

    I've been playing since vanilla, though I didn't play too much in BC, and played a lot in WotLK, and since I've been doing the cycle a lot of us are used to. Play, feels grindy after a few months, retire, come back a few months later.

    I don't understand why everyone complains about how "easy" it is, or how "faceroll" certain things are, and really, the "end of the sense of community" drives me insane. WoW isn't worse off than it was pre WotLK (when a lot of this started happening). Do you remember how bad it sucked having to get a group together to do a dungeon? Do you remember how hard it would be to get a spot in a raid guild, or hell, even get a raid team together? It wasn't impossible, but it definitely was harder than it is, and I distinctly recall many people complaining about it.

    As for the sense of community, we've always had little shits in the community, with their heads up their asses. It'll never change. WoW brings out the arrogance in certain people. It's still definitely possible to find a guild with good, friendly people. If you choose to join a hardcore raiding guild where noone talks, well that's your problem isn't it?

    Really, what's so wrong with the direction WoW has been going in for the last 3 xpacks?
    The difference being, as one of the better players myself, I never had a problem finding groups. I never had a problem having a raid guild available, and getting into every guild I chose has been easy. When people are talking about a lack of community, they are talking about how you can't really become well known on your server unless you are already in a position of prestige or you are an asshole in trade. Before I started my super raiding career I was still known on my server as one of the better healers on the server. I knew quite a few of the good dps and tanks on top as well. I actually knew quite a bit of my server that played near the same times I did. Fast forward to Wrath and I only knew a couple of the other guilds, to Cataclysm and I really didn't know anyone. No one pugged anymore so I never met other players on the server. I couldn't do 10's or normals separate anymore so I never got to go around and see how other people were playing unless I leveled an alt (which I did), and then LFR came out and that went to poo as well. No one wanted to pug raids, they just wanted to LFR and do their guild raid.

    I'd like to think people aren't so much complaining that the game is going casual, even though things are being nerfed to hard and too quickly, and all other content is completable by a trained monkey. They are complaining that this game might as well be a single player game with bad AI that spouts profanity and puts you down if they think you are doing bad, whether you really are or not.

  13. #113
    If the game feels too easy to get to the end, then once the players who are better and more organized beat all the content, they're rather bored.

    If you shift all the content to be laughably easy, and then just make hard modes, there's no content motivation to do better, only different numbers on the same skins of gear.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    If you shift all the content to be laughably easy, and then just make hard modes, there's no content motivation to do better, only different numbers on the same skins of gear.
    "Hi everyone. I want you all to pay for the content only I and a small number of my friends will do. But that's ok, because I'll like it better this way, even if it sucks for all of you."
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  15. #115
    People are upset and blame casuals because WoW no longer resembles an MMORPG, it's a theme park MMO game where you select your ride (queue up), sit in the cart and see the sites (faceroll bosses), collect your prize tokens (valor points) and buy your prize (valor gear).

    If this type of WoW was introduced during the birth of the MMORPG genre it would have a been a massive flop.

  16. #116
    (1) : feeling or showing little concern : nonchalant
    (2) : lacking a high degree of interest or devotion
    (3) : done without serious intent or commitment
    I think this guy nailed it. End raiding (normal and heroic) requires commitment and interest. Casuals, as the word says it, don't have interest to do those things so it's not made for them.

    *edit

    I just want to clarify that I don't think casuals are people who play less hours. If you like to min/max, read about lore, group with other people and make effort to accomplish something in game you are not casual.
    You are casual if you log in, don't care about anything but just want to play for a while until you get bored and then move on to another game.
    Last edited by Thalmar; 2013-04-22 at 11:12 PM.

  17. #117
    This is of course highly subjective, but if you want to play games but are unwilling to dedicate both time and effort to get what you want you should just stick to Angry Birds or something instead. The whole gaming industry, and community, is in severe decline because of these people. Everyone wants to be "elite gamers", but no one wants to work for it.
    You cannot do that while stunned.
    You cannot do that while stunned.
    You cannot do that while stunned.
    You die.
    You are dead.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Coronius View Post
    This is of course highly subjective, but if you want to play games but are unwilling to dedicate both time and effort to get what you want you should just stick to Angry Birds or something instead. The whole gaming industry, and community, is in severe decline because of these people. Everyone wants to be "elite gamers", but no one wants to work for it.
    This is of course entirely subjective, but if you want to play games but are unwilling to adapt to what the average player wants, you should stick to niche games like Dark Souls. The tiny elite minority of gamers is in a severe panty twist because they can't deal with business realities. Everyone else is tired of "elite gamers" acting like they're doing us a service by merely existing.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    "Hi everyone. I want you all to pay for the content only I and a small number of my friends will do. But that's ok, because I'll like it better this way, even if it sucks for all of you."
    I understand this arguement but don't agree with it. Just because you pay for a game doesn't mean you're entitled to win the game. WoW is in no way compelled to make the game for "hardcores" or "casuals". In fact they should be shooting for the middle of the two which is most likely the majority of their playerbase. Problem is only Blizzard knows the numbers and trends of players and they're, to put it generously, less than forthright about divulging that information.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    You're full of shit honey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    This is of course entirely subjective, but if you want to play games but are unwilling to adapt to what the average player wants, you should stick to niche games like Dark Souls. The tiny elite minority of gamers is in a severe panty twist because they can't deal with business realities. Everyone else is tired of "elite gamers" acting like they're doing us a service by merely existing.
    But average player doesn't want to raid. At least majority of WoW players don't raid. Does that mean Blizzard should stop producing raid content?

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