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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by The Illusive Man View Post
    Raiding 14-16 hours a day during those progression weeks? I always knew that those "world first" guilds are crazy but I never thought that they were that crazy. How can you spend so much time a day sitting in-front of your computer and trying to down a boss? I would understand it if it was their full-time job but apparently they are doing it as their "hobby".

    BTW: You really can´t compare a professional Piano player or a professional athlete to a "world first" gamer because it is a different thing they try to achieve. You know an athlete spends a lot of hours to practice so that he can win championships, medals and other prices and a professional Piano player practices so that he can play in-front of a very big crowd and to write new songs. So tell me what does a "World first" gamer that plays 14 hours a day achieve with this? All they achieve is to be featured on a few gamer sites and maybe get a few fans. They don´t get medals or money a Piano player or athlete would (the best of them because those guys in these guilds claim to be the best too).

    So if you try to compare the best athletes to the best "raiders" then you see that all those top raiders do is spend their entire life in a game trying to down a boss for a bit of fame on a gaming site. They do not earn millions or world-wide fame with it like the best athletes do.
    Well, but this is your issue. If you can't understand the motivation of people who want to be the best in a competition, then it is not the fault of the 'world-first' guilds. Once again - feel free to not approve the achievements of those players. On the other hand, I think it is kind of sad, that the only valid motivation in your opinion seems to be money.

    Maybe the sportsman or the piano player ends up earning a lot of money, but I assume, only very few start doing a sport or playing the piano with the intention to become famous and earn a lot of cash. Everybody tries to improve themselves in the things he does - some take it a step further and try to become the best. This is absolutely not limited to musical instruments or sports, you can see this in nearly every aspect of live. Have you ever read a little in the guinnes book of records? There is a whole bunch of records, noone would ever pay them money for. Those people only did it for the fun and to become the best in their respective area.

    Whenever there is a possibility of competition coming along with a broad base of people to compete, there will be people who try to maximize their success and become the best, no matter if there is any prize to win.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Art3x View Post
    Still needing 90 lessers as of 7:45 cst
    We will probably need to wait for restarts for some parts of the hotfix to kick in. Don't turn the quest in until then.
    Q: Where the fuck is Xia Xia, SIU?!?!
    A1: She needs to start making eggs for Easter...
    A2: Drunk and sleeping somewhere.

  3. #63
    Congratulations Method for slaughtering Blood Legion this tier, despite their one day head start each reset! The only reason BL got any 25man world firsts was because of the earlier reset couplied with blizzard nerfing twins by 15%, when method were so far ahead on that race already.

    Really well played

  4. #64
    Method raided 14-16 hours a day during much of the progression.
    ...that cannot be healthy, surely?

  5. #65
    Wow has always been more about time spent than skill I dunno why people are shocked by this.....Wow is a low skill cap ceiling game as far as PvE anyway, as long as you're able to follow a rotation and do boss mechanics at the same time you're good to go. The main thing that holds people back is the time investment needed and its always been the case.

  6. #66
    Mechagnome TrollShaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calthric View Post
    ...that cannot be healthy, surely?
    I think it's unhealthy. The interview said they take 5 minute breaks once every few hours, too.
    But if you want to race for world first, real-life activities must be sacrificed, I suppose.

    Troll altoholic | Windrunner and Barthilas Horde

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollShaman View Post
    I think it's unhealthy. The interview said they take 5 minute breaks once every few hours, too.
    But if you want to race for world first, real-life activities must be sacrificed, I suppose.
    People often try to downplay how much they have to sacrifice, though. Granted, none of us are in the shoes of a world first raider, so we don't know what their personal lives are like. But if you are raiding that much, something else has to be sacrificed for it. I love this game, but I'm not so sure those sacrifices would be worth being "the best" at a game. Riggnaros always talks about how to be "the best" at something you have to produce results, come up with new ideas, etc. Wouldn't all of those skills be better served in an outlet in which career and financial opportunities are involved? You can still raid 12-15 hours per week and clear content while it's relevant. There's plenty of guilds on WoW Progress that prove this. I wonder what those guilds who raid 20-25 hours per week and still lose to 12-15 per hour week guilds think when it happens.
    Last edited by Freese; 2013-04-23 at 02:50 PM.

  8. #68
    Mechagnome Tekloth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kouby View Post
    This has got nothing to do with learning a skill as complicated as playing piano, this is wow, this is a video game, you can learn how to dps competitively with any class and any spec just by reading a forum, I'd like to see you learn to play piano by reading a forum post...

    So this is what it has come to? Skill is measured by time spent?

    You see, with your analogy, I'd think someone who learned piano in a few days is much more talented than some guy who had to spend months on end learning the same skill.

    This is the same thing for world first, some guilds invest literally their whole life for a given period of time to get the prize, when most people aren't ready to sacrifice their whole irl life and jobs just to be first, and probably even if they could, wouldn't understand the point, this screws the measure.

    This is a world first only in the sense that they are competing with guilds who have the same playtime available, and that's certainly not a whole lot, so yeah, grats to Method who got their world first in competition with what? 2, 3 other guilds?

    So what? A guild that plays 5 times less often than Method but still clear the content in only a couple of months? Fuck them? They actually spent a shitload less time in the raid than Method, but because Method were willing to sacrifice their IRL, they get the "best players" tag, when other guilds cleared the content with significantly less time invested?

    So, basically, for wow progress: time invested = skill ?

    So yeah, grats to Method for having invested 500+ hrs of play time in less than a couple of months, them and BL are probably the only guilds in the world who could be bothered to spend so much time in there.
    I just think this whole world first thing is so overblown: some guys spend their life in a raid so now they have to be acknowledged as the best? This is so wrong in so many ways I can't even be bothered to continue commenting.

    To me, the world first now has little more meaning than "these guys have litteraly no life" à la South Park, rather than "these guys are so ubber skilled"...

    You seem to forget the main tool for progress apart from skill; GEAR. These top guilds clear content multiple resets before anyone else and thus with worse gear. They down bosses in much worse gear than in which the boss was designed to be killed. Even now, multiple resets later some people who have just cleared normal struggle with HC Jin'rokh. For example; My raid has much better gear than what Paragon had when they started their 10man HC clears, yet my raid still struggles with the same bosses that Paragon downed with much, much worse gear than what we had.

    Take for example Ulduar: For Ensidia, hardmode Hodir wasn't killable with just the gear they had, they had to use their wits to come up with something that would work, and the result you can read here. Yogg-saron +0 is another perfect example; deemed mathematically impossible, yet suddenly some taiwanese guild called Stars appears out of nowhere and manages to barely kill the boss with barely seconds to spare. How's that not skill and is only about investing more time than others?

    Also, you can learn how to DPS by reading forums, yes. But you simply can't match the dps what the top guilds are pulling just by reading forums. You need to learn your class inside out and play it like it's your second nature if you want to be as competitive as those guys. Pulling off the perfect rotations while looking out for boss timers, stuff on the ground and the possible adds included in the fight isn't something you can do without knowing your class and just by reading forums.

    And no, this isn't restricted to only top guilds. Every guild can have one or more good dps that tops the charts on a certain boss, but still the guild can struggle because the others aren't putting up the same numbers or are learning the fights more slowly, or are just more prone to screwing up multiple times on the same thing. An event which doesn't happen too often with the top guilds.

    You can argue all you want, but it's not just about the time that they invest in it, but also about individual skill and teamwork.

    To conclude this, let me throw you a question, and be honest; with the gear you and your guild currently have and will obtain in the future, do you think you would be able to clear the entire raid on heroic within the next 4-8 resets? Time investment shouldn't come into play there anymore if you think that all bosses are easy and just by investing a bit more time than the rest you're able to get the kills first.

  9. #69
    i love how everyone is judging them for their time investment. Either you can afford it or not.
    They are going for Wolrd Firsts. It doesnt matter if its in a video game or any other category.

    You can say that for any World First / World Record. The people who achive them also do nothing else. Thats how it works.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Montuh View Post
    Following you argument, everyone who is exceptionally good with something due to long and hard practice, is not worth the approval, because they needed so much time to practice. It's like saying, an exceptional good piano player, that practices about 8 hours a day (and believe me, they do), is worse than some guy out there, who only practices 4 hours a day and who is playing quite nice.

    There is only one method to measure the rank of a guild quantitatively, and that is by kill order or progress speed. No one can really say what would happen, if Method was only allowed to play for a certain amount of time per week. No one would tell an athlete to only workout or practice their sport with a constraint, that would be kind of strange, right?
    Well, one can say what happens, if a guild is only allowed a certain amount of tries per week, I think we have seen that this tier.

    And I really like if someone says, a guild can post whatever and whenever they want on their channel/page and in the same post gets upset about a newssite, that does not post exactly the news this person wants to be posted.

    (sorry for my english, not a native speaker)
    That's a bold statement there.

    The reality is like the guys says, if you play this game 16 hours a day for two to three weeks you are bound to actually finish the tier somewhere near the top, just because instead of 20 attempts at a boss you get 100-200, that's called brute forcing really. There's guilds in the top 200 (including mine) who are now 11/13 with as little as 4 hours a raid night with 3 raids a week - and that's like not really too far off from the top guilds, at 12 hours a weeks vs. 112 hours a week for the top guild (if we assume 16h x 7day) - just picture that, just do it, it's insane amount of time spent no wonder they make 10 times faster progress.

    The dedication of the "top" guilds is certainly admirable and I personally don't deny their success or envy them in the slightest, but you have to understand that they are at the top simply because their members chose WoW in front everything else (school, work, family) for as long as the content is not beat, not because they are the best players.

    Personally I couldn't deal with such a schedule, I got work to worry about and a family, 3 raids nights at 4 hours is the most I'm willing to invest into this game and even that is much some times - does that mean I'm less skilled? I certainly don't believe so, it just means I'm not investing the same amount of time, and there's tons of players out there equally skilled or even higher, that can not commit to the schedule of top raiding guilds.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by antelope591 View Post
    Wow has always been more about time spent than skill I dunno why people are shocked by this.....Wow is a low skill cap ceiling game as far as PvE anyway, as long as you're able to follow a rotation and do boss mechanics at the same time you're good to go. The main thing that holds people back is the time investment needed and its always been the case.
    That's true for every videogame probably, the more time you spend on learning the mechanics the easier it gets... This also true for every moba and PvP game. The only times this is not true is when there is a lot of RNG involved, then luck comes to play.
    Thank god there is always room for improvement through practice, and videogames are not only for the naturally skilled players.

  12. #72
    Method raided 14-16 hours a day during much of the progression...

    Method raided 14-16 hours a day during much of the progression...

    Method raided 14-16 hours a day during much of the progression...

    Method raided 14-16 hours a day during much of the progression...

    Method raided 14-16 hours a day during much of the progression...

    This is why "hardcore" raiders are "the best". If you bang your head against a wall enough times, it will break.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzeh View Post
    Method raided 14-16 hours a day during much of the progression...

    Method raided 14-16 hours a day during much of the progression...

    Method raided 14-16 hours a day during much of the progression...

    Method raided 14-16 hours a day during much of the progression...

    Method raided 14-16 hours a day during much of the progression...

    This is why "hardcore" raiders are "the best". If you bang your head against a wall enough times, it will break.
    They killed 5,6 first bosses in like 1, 2 hours each with t14 gear, come back when you could kill them within 20, 30 hours; and they did all other bosses but last ones within 1 or 2 days. I can tell you some walls will not break with 99% of current player base banging their head years against it, not even close..
    Last edited by Xjev; 2013-04-23 at 03:38 PM.

  14. #74
    High Overlord ThatsOurEric's Avatar
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    I remember watching a video that was temporarily shown on this site, and it was about this guild trying to become the world first. All I
    could think of was how much of a shame it was that these people were literally wasting their entire lives on something that by all rights,
    is completely meaningless.

    Mind you, the people who do this are grown adults and it's up to them however they want to spend their time. But this kind of playing
    does not make the gaming community, especially the MMO-crowd, look very good to say the least.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by noskillz View Post
    That's true for every videogame probably, the more time you spend on learning the mechanics the easier it gets... This also true for every moba and PvP game. The only times this is not true is when there is a lot of RNG involved, then luck comes to play.
    Thank god there is always room for improvement through practice, and videogames are not only for the naturally skilled players.
    The difference in other games is that you have to spend all those hours to GET to the top....what I mean is you can't be a top player in a game like sc2 or dota by playing only 3-4 hours a day. It's literally impossible because those are high skill cap games. In a game like WoW on the other hand its very easy for someone who plays 3-4 hours a day to be at the same skill level as someone who plays 15-16 hours a day. This is where the time vs skill argument comes in. I suppose we can say that having the endurance and dedication to put that many hours in is a type of skill but different than what we think of in traditional terms.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsOurEric View Post
    I remember watching a video that was temporarily shown on this site, and it was about this guild trying to become the world first. All I
    could think of was how much of a shame it was that these people were literally wasting their entire lives on something that by all rights,
    is completely meaningless.

    Mind you, the people who do this are grown adults and it's up to them however they want to spend their time. But this kind of playing
    does not make the gaming community, especially the MMO-crowd, look very good to say the least.
    Well I played soccer at high school to win, I would waste my entire life on team to win the competition for no real reward etc...

  17. #77
    Why people fixate on time spent on progression while ignore the fact that Ra-den has limited attempts restriction in place? You can say they "brutal forced" other bosses but I'd question that's the case for Ra-den.

  18. #78
    I just dont see the sanity of throwing yourself at a boss hundreds of times to kill it. At that point I would go get a dog and spartan kick it off a roof from becoming insane

  19. #79
    Are you unemployed?
    Do you not care about personal hygiene?
    Do you not care about having friends or a gf/bf?

    Gratz, you are now a hardcore raider. I enjoy having sex, showering and having money so alas I can never be in a top guild. I was excited when wowprogress started posting how many attempts it took each guild to down a boss. That was going to show who really has the skill but they removed it!

  20. #80
    Christ Ra-Den looks shite.

    If you have numbers required to heal P2
    Go to > Win

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