"I think the Alliance has had strong moments this expac"

[Rilec]

You'd need to lose about a half-dozen more Theramores to equal what you would gain from Dalaran. Theramore may have been big in lore but in-game mechanical balance reigns supreme. In-game Theremore is basically a half dozen quests and a teleport point. It actually is just another Camp T, just with stone buildings instead of tents.

And in-game, Dalaran is still a neutral quest hub/city in Northrend. What could the Horde possibly need to "balance things out"? What happened to the whole "War isn't fair and balanced" that's been said the past few years? Mechanical balance hasn't been touched.

[Sandrox]

And in-game, Dalaran is still a neutral quest hub/city in Northrend. What could the Horde possibly need to "balance things out"? What happened to the whole "War isn't fair and balanced" that's been said the past few years? Mechanical balance hasn't been touched.

Well, now that it might actually be in favor of the Alliance, and the Horde might actually get the short end of the stick for the first time in 5 years, its not ok.

[Darmalus]

If Horde and Alliance need to be equal in game, then Horde needs to lose alot for the stuff they gained in Cataclysm. They gained for more than what the Alliance had over Horde back in classic.

Sorry, no. The Alliance was massively larger than the Horde for the entire game up to Cata, and they were made even in Cata. Plus, the Horde wasn't pure gain, the Horde itself lost several places.

[Noorri]

What am I currently afraid of is that Blizzard has gotten so stuck on the constant Horde-Alliance war that even after we kill Garrosh nothing will really change. They haven't really changed the Horde-Alliance relationship at all in WoWs history. Some small back-and-forths, but no real changes. I am guessing that in the next expansion we are going back to the same semi-war that has been going on since Classic WoW, and it's frankly getting rather stale at this point.

Everything that has happened up to this point in MoP (such as the purge of Dalaran) will become meaningless to Alliance unless Blizzard really changes the dynamic between the factions. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[Sett]

You'd need to lose about a half-dozen more Theramores to equal what you would gain from Dalaran. Theramore may have been big in lore but in-game mechanical balance reigns supreme. In-game Theremore is basically a half dozen quests and a teleport point. It actually is just another Camp T, just with stone buildings instead of tents.

Well. I sorta was comparing on a lore-scale. Both are suppose to be big.

In-game mechanical stuff makes me cringe a bit.

[Requimortem]

Are you an idiot?

I have to ask you that same question. The purge that occurred in Dalaran is NOT a victory for the Alliance, because it accomplished absolutely nothing. It was a petty revenge massacre by Jaina because she had lost her neutrality after the events that took place in Theramore. The fact that the Horde managed to slip undetected into a city full of mages only proves how useless they ultimately are. Even more so is this true when you take into consideration how relatively easy it was for Arthas to storm Dalaran during the events of Warcraft III despite it having a shield that literally tore apart any undead who passed through it. Which, in my opinion, is very flawed and terrible writing on their part.

[Shefu]

Kosak and whoever is "okaying" his decisions are only fooling themselves. What strong moments? Killing off Blood Elves and stealing a city for themselves? Nothing a couple of bats dropping off Plague Bombs can't resolve in a day's work. Bye Bye Purple Wizards.

What Else? Nothing.

The Horde isn't splintering at all, if anything it is uniting to kill off an idiot. Between, the Forsaken Plague, the Sunwell, and the Divinity Bell, and the leader of the Earthen Ring on our side. I'd say the Horde is looking pretty good just the way it is.

[Wyrt]

The Horde isn't splintering at all, if anything it is uniting to kill off an idiot. Between, the Forsaken Plague, the Sunwell, and the Divinity Bell, and the leader of the Earthen Ring on our side. I'd say the Horde is looking pretty good just the way it is.

They have a tendency to say one thing but show the opposite. I'm not sure if we're supposed to believe what they're saying or what they're showing.

[johnnyderpp]

Kosak and whoever is "okaying" his decisions are only fooling themselves. What strong moments? Killing off Blood Elves and stealing a city for themselves? Nothing a couple of bats dropping off Plague Bombs can't resolve in a day's work. Bye Bye Purple Wizards.

What Else? Nothing.

The Horde isn't splintering at all, if anything it is uniting to kill off an idiot. Between, the Forsaken Plague, the Sunwell, and the Divinity Bell, and the leader of the Earthen Ring on our side. I'd say the Horde is looking pretty good just the way it is.

Yeah this is exactly what I'm talking about. As an Alliance player I don't feel as though my faction has had a winning moment. Dalaran purge left a bad taste in my mouth. We should feel like we're doing something heroic. The Alliance needs a Hero figure to rally behind, and not Varian.

[Kaleredar]

I'm glad you agree with the purging of South Shore.

Really? The small town of South Shore, which was plagued into oblivion, its residents taken, imprisoned, tortured, and mutated?


This, versus a group that was originally offered refuge (who's leader is pretty darn strongly hinted to have been involved in the scheme to steal a superweapon for the horde) forcibly imprisoned, but not mutated into tortured monstrosities?

Yeah, big similarity.

The Horde isn't splintering at all, if anything it is uniting to kill off an idiot. Between, the Forsaken Plague, the Sunwell, and the Divinity Bell, and the leader of the Earthen Ring on our side. I'd say the Horde is looking pretty good just the way it is.

Sylvannas is one bad fangasm lore tripe away from becoming the new lich queen, Thrall is off raising his kids, and the divine bell was shattered. Not exactly an A-1 basis for stability.

[Deleted]

The problem with the Purge of Dalaran moment as a good Alliance moment is, that they made it especially so that Alliance players shouild feelat least a little bit bad about it since not all of the Sunreavers getting thrown out, killed or imprisoned were guilty. It was a controversial moment and it sparked a lot of discussion. What it looked like to most players was Jaina acting crazy.

[Deleted]

We need the one true hero of the Alliance.

We need Turalyon

Turalyon and Alleria are going to be neutral, live with it. It absolutely shouldn't happen but it will.

I hardly count the Dalaran purge as an Alliance victory, seeing as how the Horde get a quest right afterwards to storm the Violet Hold and free Aethas and a bunch of Blood Elves. If it was an Alliance victory, then the Horde quest shouldve been them trying and FAILING in their rescue attempt, or them doing something completely different. Im fine with it being a grey area, but I hate the fact that every Alliance 'victory' that we get is immediately reversed anyway.

I actually agree on this. The Alliance tried and failed to keep the bell from the Horde (yes it got destroyed later but it wasn't much of a loss for the us seeing how it didn't work anyway) yet we easily stormed Dalaran and undid what the Alliance accomplished. It could've been an Alliance victory but for some reason we needed just as much of a gain out of it. The whole "Belfs wanted to return to the Alliance" and freeing the prisoners made any real "Alliance victory" feeling go away.

Worse was the whole "greyness" they gave the entire incident. It allows both sides to blame the other and with all the rabbid fanboys running around Jaina was soon seen as Garrosh 2.0 despite her reaction being overall reasonable for once. It went against what the Alliance supposedly stands for and serve no real purpose. They tried to imply that Aethas afterall knew perfectly fine what was going in later on but I'm fairly sure many people will overlook/ignore it.

Kosak and whoever is "okaying" his decisions are only fooling themselves. What strong moments? Killing off Blood Elves and stealing a city for themselves? Nothing a couple of bats dropping off Plague Bombs can't resolve in a day's work. Bye Bye Purple Wizards.

Stealing a city? Pretty sure the city belonged to them to begin with. That being said the rest is more a problem of horrible writing on their part especially taking the forsaken into account. Every single time the forsaken are losing they just magicaly conjure up some deus ex machina and win anyway.
In theory the Kirin Tor should be a huge gain for the Alliance, they should help them tremendously and overall be on par with any Horde faction. In game we will never ever see this. But it's still the same writers that let my level 14 forsaken go toe to toe with the Alliance elite and flat out beat them, that made me steamroll the Alliance 7th legion several times.

The Horde isn't splintering at all, if anything it is uniting to kill off an idiot. Between, the Forsaken Plague, the Sunwell, and the Divinity Bell, and the leader of the Earthen Ring on our side. I'd say the Horde is looking pretty good just the way it is.

True the Horde isn't splintering at all. We'll even see the Orcs right back at the Horde's core once this expansion is over despite the fact that most races should be extremly mistrusting and outright hostile towards them. If the Horde would really be falling apart we'd need to see that actually happen, it doesn't, not at all.
The rest is just pointing out some more deus ex machinas that shouldn't exist. The forsaken plague for example is one of the most retarded ojnes. The Sunwell doesn't do all that much though and the divine bell is broken. Thrall on the other hand is a pretty nasty one. He's still a black hole mary sue sucking in story around him and twisting everything to fit how he is shown ingame.
He should be offset by Malfurion if anything, but that doesn't actually happen. The most not neutral thing Malfurion is doing is being shown as hostile towards Horde in Darnassus but even then he doesn't actually attack at all. In every single last other instance he's truly neutral, at times even berating the Alliance players for wanting to fight the Horde and ignoring all the things done by the Horde.

But hey, nothing will ever be better than Anduin helping me to gank Alliance players. That one was hilarious.

[RyanEX]

The Alliance has Dalaran. DALARAN A great, big flying city of mages. The Horde didn't lose a city, but the Alliance gained one. Massive victory. Possibly too massive. It's basically a giant flying I-WIN button for the Alliance.

We lost a city and GOT BACK ONE THAT SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN NEUTRAL IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Also, show me where I can use an Alliance only Dalaran then I'll consider the point valid.

[Deleted]

We need the one true hero of the Alliance.

We need Turalyon

I second this!

---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 09:22 AM ----------

Are you an idiot? The Alliance now hold Dalaran, that is a massive victory. Your prison is stuffed to the gills with blood elf hostages, preventing any major attacks. You didn't get to kill or imprison a few names characters, boo-hoo. If that's your measure of victory, then Theramore was a Horde failure since Jaina didn't die.

Is that portrayed anywhere? Alliance Dalaran is nowhere to be seen. Meanwhile Theramore is a crater.
"Blizzard didn't want to change cataclysm zones" My ass!

[Talen]

"I think the Alliance has had some strong moments this expansion

And....I can't think of any.

The Dalaran sequence was a pretty awesome Alliance win.

Beating up shopkeepers is an "awesome Alliance win"?

What can be done about it? The Alliance needs a Hero, someone like Arthas or Uther or even Tirion.

Varian will do. The problem si the allaicne is reactive isnteda of proactive, that the Alliance stories aren't being told, that the Alliance is hamstrung by Blizzards unwillingess to showcase the results of their actions.

Blizzard, for example, doesn't want to have the Alliance recapture territory because it would involve work to show it.

It has been shown numerous time how the Heroes of both sides have come together and worked in unison to defeat the large evil at hand.

And the Horde still found time to go out and get their stories told. Which is why Alliance players are increasingly ticked off.

Seriously - that entire interview showcased exactly why Blizzard has such a poor grasp of the Alliance story. To suggest that Dalaran and beating up shopkeepers and civilains was something the Alliance should be proud of is...bleh.

EJL

[Deleted]

The story so far isn't what we were promissed at last Blizzcon, but at least I'm glad Alliance is going to be clear winner after SoO.
I hope next expansion will be Alliance lore heavy, and Horde will be underdogs.
We Alliance played that role far too long.

[Deleted]

The Horde isn't splintering at all, if anything it is uniting to kill off an idiot. Between, the Forsaken Plague, the Sunwell, and the Divinity Bell, and the leader of the Earthen Ring on our side. I'd say the Horde is looking pretty good just the way it is.

Erm but it is splintering... The majority of the orcs will stick with Garrosh the Horde capital will be a "blood bath" and most likely in ruins, and there are different factions within a faction that is splintering. They all claim to be Horde yet they're fighting each other. Also the Sunwell is only used to keep Blood Elf civilisation running it isn't weaponised, I doubt the plague will be deployed and the Divine Bell is destroyed, Thrall will try to use diplomacy as the splintering is breaking his heart and will likely be captured. So yeah, the Horde are about to get fucked and will end up being the weaker faction, however this wouldn't be the Alliance victory people have been craving for, because it was planned launched and fought in coalition with Horde rebels.

[thesmall001]

I think Blizzard have made an outright attempt to focus on the Alliance this year and all in all it's proven that the Alliance players lack conviction. We just don't appreciate anything given to us and I've noticed a significant trend towards inferiority complexes where anything the Horde are given is instantly and discernably better. I see more Alliance arguing about why the Horde are winning than calling out their triumphs. It's sad really. We get awesome character development from Anduin and Jaina and Varian but people complain that they're "too neutral" or "too pacifistic" or "not true Alliance". I think that's the root of the issue. The Alliance have been having a long, drawn-out identity crisis and aren't really sure WHO they are or who they SHOULD be.

Dalaran wasn't meant to be a fist-pump moment. Neither faction is meant to have that until 5.3/5.4 when we start overcoming our worse halves that have been seen this expansion. Dalaran was meant to be that moment of "have we crossed a line?" where the Alliance are meant to recognise that for all the Horde's faults; they are also guilty of pride and hatred and biggotry. As a Horde, I haven't enjoyed being forced to play as a bad guy and as an Alliance I haven't enjoyed being depicted as a Human-Only society. They're very much trying to enforce the idea that Varian is the "Hero of the Alliance" both with the Trials of the High King (which I thought were working well) and the reminder that the Alliance is mostly Humans protecting other, smaller races whilst enforcing the idea that the Horde is the sum of it's parts and supporting the ideology that the Horde carves it's own path.

Faction story development has worked well this expansion in my eyes. I think the Alliance just need to establish some core principals to agree on. Maybe finally come up with a decent catchphrase. Blizzard delivered you a decent story this expansion. If you still think it's a Horde story and you're just along for the ride then you may be missing the point of your faction's ideology and maybe you're not a part of the right faction anymore.

[7seti]

The whole "Belfs wanted to return to the Alliance" and freeing the prisoners made any real "Alliance victory" feeling go away.

This is my problem with it. Dalaran could have been a clear Alliance victory, the moment when we finally get off our butts and fight back but nooo, Varian has to come in and lecture us about how we just ruined everything.

Adding to the sense of fail is how it's so badly written. Varian berates Jaina for spoiling his super-secret negotiations with the Blood Elves. But Jaina is the ruler of Dalaran, the only non-Horde city with a significant population of blood elves. Why wasn't she involved in these negotiations? For that matter, why wasn't the rest of the Alliance? You'd think they'd be a bit peeved about having to accept former enemies without even getting a say in the matter. Even worse, Varian himself had been pestering Jaina to declare the Kirin Tor for the Alliance: an act which would surely have spoiled his own dealing with the blood elves. This story's got more holes than swiss cheese.

[Deleted]

I think Blizzard have made an outright attempt to focus on the Alliance this year and all in all it's proven that the Alliance players lack conviction. We just don't appreciate anything given to us and I've noticed a significant trend towards inferiority complexes where anything the Horde are given is instantly and discernably better. I see more Alliance arguing about why the Horde are winning than calling out their triumphs. It's sad really. We get awesome character development from Anduin and Jaina and Varian but people complain that they're "too neutral" or "too pacifistic" or "not true Alliance". I think that's the root of the issue. The Alliance have been having a long, drawn-out identity crisis and aren't really sure WHO they are or who they SHOULD be.

Dalaran wasn't meant to be a fist-pump moment. Neither faction is meant to have that until 5.3/5.4 when we start overcoming our worse halves that have been seen this expansion. Dalaran was meant to be that moment of "have we crossed a line?" where the Alliance are meant to recognise that for all the Horde's faults; they are also guilty of pride and hatred and biggotry. As a Horde, I haven't enjoyed being forced to play as a bad guy and as an Alliance I haven't enjoyed being depicted as a Human-Only society. They're very much trying to enforce the idea that Varian is the "Hero of the Alliance" both with the Trials of the High King (which I thought were working well) and the reminder that the Alliance is mostly Humans protecting other, smaller races whilst enforcing the idea that the Horde is the sum of it's parts and supporting the ideology that the Horde carves it's own path.

Faction story development has worked well this expansion in my eyes. I think the Alliance just need to establish some core principals to agree on. Maybe finally come up with a decent catchphrase. Blizzard delivered you a decent story this expansion. If you still think it's a Horde story and you're just along for the ride then you may be missing the point of your faction's ideology and maybe you're not a part of the right faction anymore.

Oh yea they made an attempt allright.
All this failed with a huge bang. Making everyone in the alliance Varian's bitches that have no real character on their own is not good at all.
And Jaina is just a mess. She left her FATHER to DIE because she trusted the horde. And here comes the Horde destroying her CITY, what does she do? Retreats to dalaran and TRUSTS THE HORDE AGAIN! Bitch, you had that betrayal coming, stupid blonde bimbo.