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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Sky High Shark View Post
    not saying she couldn't or shouldn't have, but actions have consequences. the Orcs moved to gain more resources in the north and had not engaged her. she made the move to help them but opened herself up to reprisals. if the roles were reversed I would feel no different about the outcome, would you?
    I have no problem with the attack on Theramore. You misunderstand what I wrote. My problem was the way Thrall behaved which A) Goes against his character and history built up with Jaina. The Thrall Jaina had allowed to kill her dad would have spoken to Garrosh and B) Massively openly double standards. When it's his ex horde doing something thats fine. But when someone gets the power to wipe them out in response... well he can't stick by his "No interfere guns" and doesn't even take responsibility for his actions. He made Garrosh Warchief, he refused to help Jaina when she asked for aid and now here he is betraying Jaina, again.

    Remember, while Jaina allowed troop movement, she herself committed no troops and did not participate. As an Alliance member she did her bare minimum so as to remain as neutral as possible. As a Neutral member Thrall did the bare miminum so as to allow his mistake to grow and shoved his head in the sand.
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  2. #62
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    I have no problem with the attack on Theramore. You misunderstand what I wrote. My problem was the way Thrall behaved which A) Goes against his character and history built up with Jaina. The Thrall Jaina had allowed to kill her dad would have spoken to Garrosh and B) Massively openly double standards. When it's his ex horde doing something thats fine. But when someone gets the power to wipe them out in response... well he can't stick by his "No interfere guns" and doesn't even take responsibility for his actions. He made Garrosh Warchief, he refused to help Jaina when she asked for aid and now here he is betraying Jaina, again.

    Remember, while Jaina allowed troop movement, she herself committed no troops and did not participate. As an Alliance member she did her bare minimum so as to remain as neutral as possible. As a Neutral member Thrall did the bare miminum so as to allow his mistake to grow and shoved his head in the sand.
    You are so missing the dam point here its a joke.

    Did you even read the book or skim though it? When Jaina came with the focusing iris, using its power and her own magic to enslave thousends of water elementals, to create a vast tidal wave in order to drown orgrimmar, she was doing some in a fit of psychotic rage and grief and her mind warped by the arcane energy.
    Thrall stopped her, or held her off long as he could, telling her what Garrosh did was hideous, but what jaina intended to do was as bad, if not worse. Despite Garrosh being a monster no better then Arthas, there were innocent people living in orgrimmar, men, women and children, who Jaina was about to slaughter.

    You are actually condoning Jaina killing children. you think what happened to theramore because of what Garrosh did gives her the right to slaughter every single orc in orgrimmar, including innocents.

    You either lack the understanding of the moral integrity in this, or you choose to ignore it purposely.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    I have no problem with the attack on Theramore. You misunderstand what I wrote. My problem was the way Thrall behaved which A) Goes against his character and history built up with Jaina. The Thrall Jaina had allowed to kill her dad would have spoken to Garrosh and B) Massively openly double standards. When it's his ex horde doing something thats fine. But when someone gets the power to wipe them out in response... well he can't stick by his "No interfere guns" and doesn't even take responsibility for his actions. He made Garrosh Warchief, he refused to help Jaina when she asked for aid and now here he is betraying Jaina, again.

    Remember, while Jaina allowed troop movement, she herself committed no troops and did not participate. As an Alliance member she did her bare minimum so as to remain as neutral as possible. As a Neutral member Thrall did the bare miminum so as to allow his mistake to grow and shoved his head in the sand.
    well that we can agree on, Garrosh should have been given the duties and power of a janitor. Thrall puts the least "peace oriented" member of his court I guess you could call it, into power, why? "eh's Groms son and people seem to like em". however to say Thrall should not have done SOMETHING to keep his people out of harms way is a little out there. he is an Orc, and has done everything even in Cata as a "neutral" character to do what is best for EVERYONE, which included the orcs. this isn't Cata, I can't say weather he still counts himself as a neutral figure or not, but to step in and keep his people safe should be a no brainer in my book.

  4. #64
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Thrall giving Garrosh that power is a burden he lives with now, from the death of Cairne his best friend, to every action Garrosh has commited, to the destruction of theramore, and now him fighting and killing his own kor'kron who once defended him. He tells it to vol'jin, its killing him inside to do this.

    Thrall is a humble character who only wanted what was best for his people. but even the best of intentions can have consequences, not intended.

    If anything, Thrall putting faith in Garrosh, just for Garrosh to turn into the tyrant he became, is proof that Thrall made a mistake with Garrosh, and now suffers because of it. (and if you think losing one of our best friends, seeing another friend become your enemy, everything he ever worked for shattered, and then having to kill his own people isn't punishment, your all have a vague view on what suffering is)
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Thrall giving Garrosh that power is a burden he lives with now, from the death of Cairne his best friend, to every action Garrosh has commited, to the destruction of theramore, and now him fighting and killing his own kor'kron who once defended him. He tells it to vol'jin, its killing him inside to do this.

    Thrall is a humble character who only wanted what was best for his people. but even the best of intentions can have consequences, not intended.

    If anything, Thrall putting faith in Garrosh, just for Garrosh to turn into the tyrant he became, is proof that Thrall made a mistake with Garrosh, and now suffers because of it. (and if you think losing one of our best friends, seeing another friend become your enemy, everything he ever worked for shattered, and then having to kill his own people isn't punishment, your all have a vague view on what suffering is)
    Its punishment, but not enough... Oh you lost someone and feel guilty... Well to bad since that doesn't begin to describe the suffering the Alliance had. A whole city who's inhabitants didn't even go to the afterlife, their souls destroyed by the blast. Families who died so Garrosh could get a bit of lumber. Not exactly hard for him to find a source, go to Outland and stay there, that's his and the Orc's home anyway.

    And yes I do condone Jaina's actions, firstly its a fictional roleplay universe so it hardly matters and secondly there is no such thing as an innocent Orc. Alien invaders from another world who when needing resources instead of going back to their homeworld which they could have done they instead try and butcher Night Elves to do it.
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  6. #66
    Legendary! KrazyK923's Avatar
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    and would you agree ending the root of the enemy supply chain is a smart move? I'm not here to go back and forth on who is "in the wrong", but to say that actions taken by one side are "justifiable" in a militaristic sense. Jaina was smart to aid them when she did, but to sit back and expect NOTHING to happen to her or Theramore just because she is "in the right" is ridiculous.
    I never argued that Theramore wasn't a good military target. It was probably the best decision he could have made.

    But you initially were just completely glossing over the fact that the only reason Theramore became a military player in Cataclysm is due to Garrosh abusing the disaster to attack the Night Elves. He then tried to starve them out, and the Alliance was forced to intervene to save their ally.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Sky High Shark View Post
    well that we can agree on, Garrosh should have been given the duties and power of a janitor. Thrall puts the least "peace oriented" member of his court I guess you could call it, into power, why? "eh's Groms son and people seem to like em". however to say Thrall should not have done SOMETHING to keep his people out of harms way is a little out there. he is an Orc, and has done everything even in Cata as a "neutral" character to do what is best for EVERYONE, which included the orcs. this isn't Cata, I can't say weather he still counts himself as a neutral figure or not, but to step in and keep his people safe should be a no brainer in my book.
    Yes it would be a no brainer, but so would be helping the friend who has helped you every step you have taken. Killed her own father so you could try and live in peace and she comes to you for help... The no brainer would be to say yes, but he said no. Clearly thrall no longer has a brain.
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    I never argued that Theramore wasn't a good military target. It was probably the best decision he could have made.

    But you initially were just completely glossing over the fact that the only reason Theramore became a military player in Cataclysm is due to Garrosh abusing the disaster to attack the Night Elves. He then tried to starve them out, and the Alliance was forced to intervene to save their ally.
    Was the Alliance reason for being in Southern Barrens ever spelled out? I don't recall hearing of them starving out night elves, and there's a horde npc that states the Alliance attacked from Northwatch before the cataclysm if I'm not mistaken.

  9. #69
    Legendary! KrazyK923's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Was the Alliance reason for being in Southern Barrens ever spelled out? I don't recall hearing of them starving out night elves, and there's a horde npc that states the Alliance attacked from Northwatch before the cataclysm if I'm not mistaken.
    http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...ad.php?t=21125

    Q:
    The Alliance army who invaded the Barrens wore the tabard of Theramore. Were they under Jaina Proudmoore's command? And their invasion happened way before the time of the incoming destruction of Theramore incident, so what's the reason behind their attack on Orgrimmar's territory? It seems the Alliance and the Horde were already in total war in Cataclysm.

    A:
    Because Garrosh wants to defeat the night elves and conquer the whole of Kalimdor under the banner of the Horde. So the humans of Theramore sent their army and tried to establish a military line between the night elf territory and Theramore. But it seems the result is not what they expected.
    As for starving them out, they were doing that in Tides of War, and it isn't exactly a stretch to say that the same thing happened which caused the attempted creation of the military line.

  10. #70
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    I think Garrosh will do something really bad to Garrosh. Break his back as some people say, or imprison him beneath Orgrimmar. But if Garrosh were to do something to Thrall, it would be enough to coax the spark of rebellion seen in 5.3 into an explosion. The trolls and tauren would go nuts, the Forsaken would be pissed cause Thrall let them in, the blood elves would do the same as the Forsaken... I'm not sure how the goblins fit into this though. We know the Gob Squad is loyal to Vol'Jin, but what about the other goblins? And the Pandaren as well, how would they react?
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  11. #71
    ..."And Thrall once again split into 50 different elemental spirits. Have fun getting them again!!!!oneonetwo!!!"

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by therealdavidtwo View Post
    ..."and thrall once again split into 50 different elemental spirits. Have fun getting them again!!!!oneonetwo!!!"
    we have to rescue thrall from the plane of hydrogen
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  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Sky High Shark View Post
    not saying she couldn't or shouldn't have, but actions have consequences. the Orcs moved to gain more resources in the north and had not engaged her. she made the move to help them but opened herself up to reprisals. if the roles were reversed I would feel no different about the outcome, would you?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 05:23 PM ----------



    and would you agree ending the root of the enemy supply chain is a smart move? I'm not here to go back and forth on who is "in the wrong", but to say that actions taken by one side are "justifiable" in a militaristic sense. Jaina was smart to aid them when she did, but to sit back and expect NOTHING to happen to her or Theramore just because she is "in the right" is ridiculous.
    I think you need to play WC3 again and read couple books.

    After the Battle of Mount Hyjal, Jaina Proudmoore made peace agreement with the Tyrande Whisperwind, Thrall, Cairne Bloodhoof, and Vol'jin. The Night Elves own the area of Ashenvale and anything north of it,they also own Stonetalon Mountains area as well. Thrall agree to place his kingdom in Barrens, and Durotar. Vol'jin choose to take over a bunch of island near Durotar, Echo Isles. Cairne pick the area of Mulgore and some small part of Barrens and Stonetalon Mountains. Jaina choose Dustwallow Marsh to created her kingdom, Theramore Isle. Each leader agree to not attack each other and try to do trading with each other.

    Daelin Proudmoore threaten that agreement during the founding of the orc nation, Durotar. Jaina was force to honor her agreement with the Horde and end her father's rule. Again both Thrall and Jaina renew their agreement.

    Three years later, Thrall and Jaina are trying to keep peace between their kingdoms. Their second rank commander betray them to the Burning Legion as followers of the Burning Blade. Once again they renew their agreements.

    Skipping WotLK events

    The Shattering happen, Thrall choose Garrosh as his acting warchief while he try to understand what is going on in the elemental world. Jaina start to feel worry about the new warchief like the other horde leaders.

    Because of a bunch of confusions and lack of diplomacy skill, Garrosh order the attack against the NIght Elves causing the pact between the Night Elves and the Horde become void. However Jaina still is bond to honor her agreement with the NIght Elves and created and road for the Alliance army to use to fight back Garrosh's horde. Baine and Vol'jin are force to help Garrosh by fear that the warchief will kill their people.

    Everything is Garrosh's fault. If he agree to talk to the Night Elves and listen to Baine's shamans. He would not need to attack the Night Elves' kingdom at all.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    <snip>
    I've played WCIII extensively, books iv read snip its of. and what does any of what you said have to do with Theramore being an advantageous target? did you read anything I said?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 09:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    As for starving them out, they were doing that in Tides of War, and it isn't exactly a stretch to say that the same thing happened which caused the attempted creation of the military line.
    please don't tell me I'm glossing over things when you are going off of assumptions on "starving them out" especially when your own link makes it look they didn't "abuse" the disaster but were engaged before. it seems going off your link the allies were pretty quick to react to the horde attacks prior to the cataclysm. so yes, the horde was in Ashenvale but not taking advantage of the cataclysm like the allies did in the barrens, though I will chalk that up to making the best out of a bad/unexpected situation.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    oh What Complete Horseshit! You Actually expect Thrall to stand back and allow Jaina to destroy orgrimmar, the city he founded, and kill all his people, because of what Garrosh did to her.

    YOU HAVE NO REASONING.
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  16. #76
    Scarab Lord Sky High's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    Yes it would be a no brainer, but so would be helping the friend who has helped you every step you have taken. Killed her own father so you could try and live in peace and she comes to you for help... The no brainer would be to say yes, but he said no. Clearly thrall no longer has a brain.
    not when she is going to do something AS bad or WORSE then what Garrosh did. and again, the Orcs are HIS people, he isn't going to let a friend kill masses of innocents, which of course you don't seem to care. kill all the orcs fuck if it's kids or those not involved they are orcs so they deserve to drown. I'm done here.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Thats actually a good way of discribing all this. I do feel they did make a mistake in cataclysm, and to this day to the day I die will say that expansion was the worst mistake they made in terms of story.
    However, casting Thrall into the background because of the mistakes made in cataclysm isn't creative, its trying to avoid taking responsibility. If they want to right some of the wrongs they did such as to Thrall, then keep him in the background for a bit, but then show that he is a horde character, one prepared to fight for his people. Show that he isn't all powerful, but then show his dedication to his people is stronger then anything Garrosh could throw at him. Also show that in Thralls journey and even becoming a father has taught me much more about what matters to his people then Garrosh can ever give them. And have this wake the orcs up to realizing there mistake in following Garrosh.
    this would bring Thrall down to earth and make him humble again, you could even have Varian save him as Garrosh goes to bring gorehowl down on Thrall, and the two of them both fight Garrosh.
    Sorry, but I don't think the solution to "too much Thrall in Cata" is "MORE Thrall in MoP." For some of us, it wasn't the cheesiness of the development that was annoying, it was how the entire world started to revolve around one character. Thrall was overexposed. He needed to go away in MoP so that other characters could have a turn. And now they have, even if those turns haven't been exactly consistent - I'm looking at you, Varian "Peacenik" Wrynn and you Tyrande "Herp derp what's strategery?" Whisperwind! And someimes I swear Anduin is just Thrall in disguise ... hmm ... has anyone ever seen them in a room together?

    Thrall has been the fulcrum for world events for far too long - even MoP events lead back to him because it was his decision to hand Garrosh the reins. He either needs to die, or stay far far away in Nagrand and raise his kid.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 11:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Malfurion

    EJL
    LOL oh Malfurion. Remember back when people said he was the Alliance counterpart to Thrall? *chuckles* Good times, good times.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Sky High Shark View Post
    yes, because her allowing the allies to march into the heart of Kalimdor, waste half of the barrens and inhabitants that lived there DIDN'T AT ALL deserve some form of retribution. SHE, went against the pact she and thrall made by allowing the allies to build that highway and start a war front in horde lands.
    If Garrosh couldn't take the heat he shouldn't have started the war at all. Whatever pact there was was shattered the moment Garrosh invaded Ashenvale and started the war with the Alliance. Theramore was a legitimate target.....but legitimate because it was in a war Garrosh started. There was no neutrality for it to break. No agreements for it to ignore. Because Garrosh had already broken them.

    Or do you think that Garrosh starting a war with one member of the Alliance means the others should refuse to help? That they should sit the war out?

    EJL

  19. #79
    Tbh i like Thrall... But i want to see him dead... that would be such a better story. And yes i would like Gamon to be a boss in SoO.... he has taunted us for too long
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  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    He wasn't overwritten in cata, its just the context of how the story went with him.
    He was overexposed, poorly written and characterised and shoved down players throats with no good reason or justification.

    EJL

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