Would the laws of mathematics be the same across the universe?

[anyaka21]

(I didn't read 9 pages)

But yes, there's a reason mathematics is defined as "the universal language". Any space-faring race would understand a sequence of prime numbers, for example.

there's a reason we as "humans" call and define as "the universal language" It is quite illogical to think that an alien would base their language around our math or that they understand the universe as we do. I think the human population is inundated with sci-fi movies and tv shows and each alien race has tons of humanistic traits, and I think the majority of people will assume that aliens will.

The fact is we know nothing about alien races. We don't know if they even exist. (granted, I do think it's also quite illogical to think that they do not). If they do, we don't know if they think like us, feel like us, love like us, count like us, etc... Hell, they could make a warp drive work thru the power of thought for all we know. Their understanding of math could be the full comprehension at the quantum level and as thus be completely different than our own thought processes too.

[Gheld]

there's a reason we as "humans" call and define as "the universal language" It is quite illogical to think that an alien would base their language around our math or that they understand the universe as we do. I think the human population is inundated with sci-fi movies and tv shows and each alien race has tons of humanistic traits, and I think the majority of people will assume that aliens will.

The fact is we know nothing about alien races. We don't know if they even exist. If they do, we don't know think like us, feel like us, love like us, count like us, etc... Hell, they could make a warp drive work thru the power of thought for all we know. Their understanding of math could be the full comprehension at the quantum level and as thus be completely different than our own thought processes too.

Prime numbers would actually be even more universal at the quantum level. Because at the quantum level all things are integers.

[Deleted]

Without knowledge of the extent of the universe or having a full understanding of the mechanics of space, time, and whatever is beyond space and time, there is no way to say definitively.

Most valid answer, alltough the laws of physics and mathematics probably are the same troughout the universe.

But if we start talking about multiverses, the possibilities are literally infinite.

[Gheld]

Most valid answer, alltough the laws of physics and mathematics probably are the same troughout the universe.

But if we start talking about multiverses, the possibilities are literally infinite.

That interpretation of quantum mechanics is on the fringe and not the mainstream. Just FYI.

[Deleted]

That interpretation of quantum mechanics is on the fringe and not the mainstream. Just FYI.

The chance of a multiverse instead of a universe is about the same as the possibility that there is only 1 galaxy (like we tought in the 1900's).
The universe repeats itself if you go from small to bigger and vise versa, I don't say I have definite proof, but to me it is logical that there are multiple universes. I might be wrong, but I'm probably not

[anyaka21]

Most valid answer, alltough the laws of physics and mathematics probably are the same troughout the universe.

But if we start talking about multiverses, the possibilities are literally infinite.

This kind of reminds of a book by Robert Sawyer called "Calculating God". The basic premise is that an alien lands on earth and asks to see a paleontologist so that the alien can prove the existence of God. Basically, the same type of cataclysmic events happened on the aliens planet. Don't worry, this isn't a God-centric book, but just that aliens could think completely different than us. Fascinating book.

[Garnier Fructis]

The chance of a multiverse instead of a universe is about the same as the possibility that there is only 1 galaxy (like we tought in the 1900's).
The universe repeats itself if you go from small to bigger and vise versa, I don't say I have definite proof, but to me it is logical that there are multiple universes. I might be wrong, but I'm probably not

I think you'd have better luck arguing for multiple universes using the concept of "eternal inflation" as opposed to a quantum mechanical interpretation.

[Deleted]

I think you'd have better luck arguing for multiple universes using the concept of "eternal inflation" as opposed to a quantum mechanical interpretation.

Those are a lot of difficult words when I bore my friends with theories, I try to aviod difficult words because they make stuff boring :/

---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 11:25 PM ----------

This kind of reminds of a book by Robert Sawyer called "Calculating God". The basic premise is that an alien lands on earth and asks to see a paleontologist so that the alien can prove the existence of God. Basically, the same type of cataclysmic events happened on the aliens planet. Don't worry, this isn't a God-centric book, but just that aliens could think completely different than us. Fascinating book.

Sounds viable If a god where to exist, he would probably think in mathematics, like a computer. Maybe the universe is just a gaint quantumcomputer and everything that exists just appeared out of random number generating.

[Garnier Fructis]

Those are a lot of difficult words when I bore my friends with theories, I try to aviod difficult words because they make stuff boring

I won't deny that I'm a very boring person haha.

[Gheld]

The chance of a multiverse instead of a universe is about the same as the possibility that there is only 1 galaxy (like we tought in the 1900's).
The universe repeats itself if you go from small to bigger and vise versa, I don't say I have definite proof, but to me it is logical that there are multiple universes. I might be wrong, but I'm probably not

You're just saying stuff. There's no assignable possibility to a multiverse because we are not capable of perceiving it if it exists. So the mathematical probability of a multiverse based on ALL AVAILABLE INFORMATION is 0. Whereas we can look up to the sky with a powerful telescope and actually count the number of galaxies that exist, and based on that, estimate the total number within a quantifiable degree of mathematical certainty.

The theory of the multiverse is necessitated by certain schools of string theory, in which the only way to explain certain anomalous implications of quantum mechanics is to say "THERE'S ANOTHER UNIVERSE THAT WE CAN'T SEE, OR CALCULATE, OR ANYTHING" which is about as mathematically sound an idea as saying "Magical time travelling velociraptors did it." There's equal empirical evidence for string theory (and thus consequently m-theory) as there is for magical time travelling velociraptors. Neither have been observed, and they can both explain the anomalies because the mathematics behind them is whatever you say it is.

And unlike the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, neither of those ideas really pass Occam's razor. Which would suggest that there's absolutely no point in even pondering string theory until simpler explanations like the Copenhagen Interpretation have been absolutely exhausted of new information. But then the next most simple interpretation would be the logical next step, so again string theory would still be waiting.

So the idea of a multiverse is sci-fi at best right now. "Studying" it is like flipping through the channels looking for the sequel to a movie that hasn't even come out yet. It's not there.

[Zhangfei]

This is something I am curious about. I seen the question "What would the universal language be?" and math seems to be the most likely. People said music but I disagreed because different life forms perceive might register sound different, so what might sound sweet melodic to a human might not even register to another life form. I went with math but this is what made me wonder the question in the title. Can the laws of mathematics be different in different parts of the universe? Pi for example, of course they can all be represented differently, but would the value be the same across the universe or are these simply human concepts?

Also, no I am not saying aliens are real or not for the thread derailers.

Maths wouldn't be a universal language but it is objective by definition. Different cultures here on Earth process abstract concepts differently so why wouldn't they elsewhere?

[Deleted]

So the idea of a multiverse is sci-fi at best right now. "Studying" it is like flipping through the channels looking for the sequel to a movie that hasn't even come out yet. It's not there.

Ironicly it turns out that a lot of science fiction stuff turned out to be possible.

Also, I'm not just *saying* something, I didn't come up with the idea of multiverse, people who know their shit did. And to me it seems like a multiverse is a plausible possibility, and more and more scientist that study physics do aswell.

*Everything that is not impossible has happened, is happening and will happen*

[Frah]

Here's an interesting thought, would would it take for mathematics to differ in an alternate universe?

Nothing because it cant. Mathematics is disjoint from anything physical. The second it has anything to do with anything physical it becomes applied mathematics which is simply using the mathematical constructs in order to solve a physical problem. Too many people confuse things in physics with things in pure mathematics. Pure mathematics is not connected to anything physical so the laws of the universe do not have any bearing.

Mathematics is hence constant everywhere in our and every other universe.

[crazymack]

Nothing because it cant. Mathematics is disjoint from anything physical. The second it has anything to do with anything physical it becomes applied mathematics which is simply using the mathematical constructs in order to solve a physical problem. Too many people confuse things in physics with things in pure mathematics. Pure mathematics is not connected to anything physical so the laws of the universe do not have any bearing.

Mathematics is hence constant everywhere in our and every other universe.

I agree with you, but my question was created to contradict that very statement "Mathematics is hence constant everywhere in our and every other universe." The point of the question was to provoke thought.

So building off your statement, would would it take for mathematics to differ in an alternate universe keeping in idea that mathematics is disjoint from physical phenomenon.

[Kujako]

That's incorrect syntax though.
0 1 + 0 1 = 1 0 is what you are saying. Which is different than 1+1=10

Nonsense, leading zeros are not needed in base two anymore then they are in base ten.

[Gheld]

Nonsense, leading zeros are not needed in base two anymore then they are in base ten.

The conversation is about universal mathematics, not human designed mathematics.

F + C = LOLLERSKATES
according to the mathematical system I just invented. So everything you say is now wrong.

^^^ That's a semantic argument and universality requires the removal of semantics all together.

[Kujako]

The conversation is about universal mathematics, not human designed mathematics.

F + C = LOLLERSKATES
according to the mathematical system I just invented. So everything you say is now wrong.

Which is what I was saying in the original post on binary vs base ten.