Garrosh's personality changes theory *possible spoilers*

[Deleted]

I don't buy that. He bore witness at the Wrathgate and prevented that same action in Stonetalon. He refused to use the Val'kyr but all of a sudden he's weaponizing incredibly dangerous, destructive, and honorless methods? This is not a leader that's simply backed into a corner and panicking. If that were the case his pride would never be strong enough to turn down Sylvannas and her methods. It's worth noting that sending Magnataurs wouldn't be out of character. It's a brash and brazen move, it involves direct combat, it's entirely different from forsaking combat for weapons of mass destruction. This is an orc who has spent decades ashamed of the corruption caused by his father's mistakes, but now he's weaponizing things like the Sha with no concern for the consequences? His father's fate is a defining part of his personality and yet now he is filled with reckless abandon, I'm sorry but I don't buy it.

There is one problem in that, the undead. They aren't weapons of the Horde, they are members of the Forsaken. He considers the undead vile beings, but he has no choice but to accept them.

Tides of War is the defining moment. His grand victory is taken way and he doesn't take it well, at all. That's the moment he decided to use all available resources to clean the Alliance from Azeroth. After he used a Manabomb, Magma Giants and Krakens. It's exactly like Golden said, Garrosh has a weak personality with an enormous need of validation. Validation that keeps being taken from the defeats he suffers.

[Deleted]

Indeed, he's the son of his father after all, aggressivenes and toughness are traits inhereted by Grom, and like Grom, Garrosh is not a diplomatic or a politician, but just a warrior and a leader. A lot of people sees Garrosh as a "bad" version of Grom, which is hilarious, Grom as Warchief would have taken the same decisions, all of them, the only exception is the usage of the mana bomb for submit Theramore, he would have did it with his axe and his army. During TBC Garrosh was not "himself" because you need at least to be proud of yourself or something for be a proud warrior and express yourself, but he had really no reasons of being proud of anything.

The whole point of all that fear of leadership is that he knew he was like his father, aggressive and impetuosus, and that like him he would lead the orcs to some bad direction. But then Thrall showed to him that his father died like a badass hero, and understood that being himself was not that bad after all.

Wow, someone else that gets it. A lot of people really just don't understand Garrosh' personality, but it does make sense when you analyse it.

---------- Post added 2013-05-05 at 04:56 PM ----------

The biggest drawback to Thrall has been him appointing Garrosh to warchief, because it lead to terrible consequences almost right from the start, with the death of cairne.

Pff, that was Cairne's own fault.

[Zulkhan]

There is nothing fishy, the constant defeats against Varian and the Alliance led to Garrosh's "let weaponize everything!" mantra. He just got more extreme, on a logical path of thinking.

This is, after all, the guy that attacked Ashenvale with Magnataurs and has been upping the game since then.

The "desperate" argument is completely hollow for me. Yeah, he have lost in Ashenvale. And then ? He still have a good presence there. The Forsaken wiped out the humans from Southshore, while not a personal's victory, he should be glad of the results, even if disgusted by the methods. The attempt of Theramore for helping the Night Elves failed, and in Stonetalon the Horde have the upper hand. Some people even complained during Cata that all the Horde victories made the Alliance seems "weak".

Pff, that was Cairne's own fault.

Yeah in this mess there's nearly no responsibility to give to Garrosh, but Cairne's reaction was understandable. Hamuul said that was a group of orcs that killed the druids, and Cairne knew Garrosh's "strong opinion" about it. No Twilight's Hammer doomsayers appeared until now, so he couldn't possibily imagine any other alternative. All this matter was just a huge misunderstanding nearly impossible to solve.

[Huntaer]

Hmm, 5.3 adds the Sha of Pride. I bet Garrosh is posessed by him in some way

[Deleted]

The "desperate" argument is completely hollow for me. Yeah, he'd lose in Ashenvale. And then ? He still have a good presence there. The Forsaken wiped out the humans from Southshore, while not a personal's victory, he should be glad of the results, even if disgusted by the methods. The attempt of Theramore for helping the Night Elves failed, and in Stonetalon the Horde have the upper hand. Some people even complained during Cata that all the Horde victories made the Alliance seems "weak".

It's not just Ashenvale. It's also the attempt to take over Kalimdor in Tides of War also. It's the commands that he gives at the end of the novel, after failing it.

It's pretty progressive, first he wants Ashenvale for the resources. The Alliance push him back. Then he decides to go for all Kalimdor. Again the Alliance push him back. Now he wants clean Azeroth of all the Alliance.

Sure, this isn't shown in-game, but the novels do a good job showing the Garrosh Escalation of Warmonger. This tied with the his superweapons race that denies to give him the upper hand.

[Ielenia]

I kind of see old gods all over Garrosh's corruption, although this is a solid theory and it's almost a given that the legion is coming. What if Malkorak was Wrathion on disguise using his influence to make Garrosh so crazy he has to be overthrown in order to achieve peace? Blizzard did say we might not agree with his methods of bringing the two factions together and that's very Black Dragonesque.

Maybe. But Garrosh is NOT being corrupted, as stated many and many times in the past. His bloodlust and rage are all his. No Old Gods twisting his dreams while he sleeps, no black dragons whispering hipnotic lies in Garrosh's ear. No, Garrosh is bringing is own downfall by his own hands, with the help of NOBODY.

EDIT: I do hope we get to kill him. I really don't want to deal with him again in the future. There is no character in World of Warcraft (Horde, Alliance or whatever) that I personally hated more than Garrosh. And that's not because my main belongs in the Alliance. Actually, come to think of it, I don't really hate any character in WoW. Only Garrosh.

[Deleted]

He's EXCATLY like his father. If you don't get it, you don't understand the Grom character at all. And Garrosh is not a racist. All his prejudices about most of the other Horde races (he have nothing against the tauren, actually the tauren have much more against him, and well, for pretty good reasons) were based on the events of the Northrend War, and some of them were rigths after all, like the Forsaken being dangeruos and unreliable, after the events of the Wrathgate he had all the reasons for don't trust them. There's nothing evil or corrupted in this. However the major fault of Garrosh about this matter is his inability of watch beyond the surface, instead, after the war, he estabilshed his opinions about them and never changed them, nor tried to listen them.

This because Garrosh, as a politician, sucks. At all.

Ehmm, no . He is nothing like his Father..Grom wanted to get power because his ppl the Orcs was getting Slaugherted or something after they got from the Dark Portal..so he struck the deal with Mannoroth..That is when he went Corrupted..so again fail more please..Garrosh not Racist ?? LoooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooool, he want to kill his Father and Thralls most trusted ally the Darkspear trolls
and how he want to get rid of the Forsaken..and Bash the Blood Elf..and want to get rid of the Tauren too..so fail again..and because the Tauren hate HIM not the Orcs..Is because he Cheated during Cairne Vs Garrosh fight..So again he is nothing like is father..and last time i checked his ppl are protected..so he is jsut a Blood-Thirsty Moongrol..

---------- Post added 2013-05-06 at 03:38 PM ----------

Hmm, 5.3 adds the Sha of Pride. I bet Garrosh is posessed by him in some way

Ehmm, how can he Be possed by something before he even are on the land that contains it ?? doesn´t make any sense..

[Zulkhan]

Ehmm, no . He is nothing like his Father..Grom wanted to get power because his ppl the Orcs was getting Slaugherted or something after they got from the Dark Portal..so he struck the deal with Mannoroth..That is when he went Corrupted..so again fail more please..Garrosh not Racist ?? LoooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooool, he want to kill his Father and Thralls most trusted ally the Darkspear trolls
and how he want to get rid of the Forsaken..and Bash the Blood Elf..and want to get rid of the Tauren too..so fail again..and because the Tauren hate HIM not the Orcs..Is because he Cheated during Cairne Vs Garrosh fight..So again he is nothing like is father..and last time i checked his ppl are protected..so he is jsut a Blood-Thirsty Moongrol..

For God's sake, not only you don't have any grasp of the story, but your posts are a reading challenge and make you looks like a...well, better if i don't say it, i don't want to be banned for this. You say that Garrosh is nothing like his father without arguing ONE decent argument to sustain it.

Grom was much more bloodthirsty than Garrosh will ever be, while Durotan (Thrall's father) was preoccupied of how much the orcs were changing, consumed by hate and fury, Grom was one of the chieftains more than glad to herald a new age of warfare and dominance. While Durotan got his chieftain title by heritage, Grom usurped it. No bullshit excuses for drinking the blood of Mannoroth, he did it for power's sake. And nothing more. They just did it before the slaughter of the draenei and the sacking of Shattrath, and Grom was the first that gave himself to the demons for become a monster filled with bloodlust, the Dark Portal not even existed and Gul'dan knew nothing of Azeroth, Medivh and what else.

And even after the more "kind" influence of Thrall, he will make the SAME mistake on Kalimdor, desperate in destroying Cenarius for save his clan, a mess in which the Warsong clan was brougth into by himself alone, because he disobeyed Thrall, and he didn't totally gave a FUCK when one of his orcs said that drinking by that fountain filled with demonic energy was against all Thrall's taughts. He said that he was no more slave to any demon, but because of his desperation and bloodlust, became a slave again, and doomed all his clan to the be slaves too.
Grom died as a great hero, but lived his entire life as a villain, let's say a "tragic villain" in the last chapter of his life, because he never wanted to do real "evil", like Gul'dan, he just had a fury and a bloodlust that wasn't able to keep in check.

No, Garrosh is not a racist, you don't even know the meaning of the word if you think so. Racism is judging and discriminate someone only for their race and their stereotypical traits. He just had low opinions of his allies, especially the trolls and ESPECIALLY Vol'jin, because they weren't able to retake their "scattered islands" without the help of Horde forces, never liked the blood elves because always saw them as opportunists that doesn't respect the Horde, and they has not been of much help in Northrend, the Forsaken proved to be traitorus and unstable, and goblins are even more opportunists of the blood elves. If you look at all these reasons these are not mindless reasons at all, but he have estabilshed these as prejudices, because never tried to listen or to make some decent discussion with his allies, just expected them to say "present" anytime he needed them, and based on his prejudeces, he gave them little to no respect, as they were, in his mind, eternally in debt with the orcs for their place in the Horde. Yeah, he's a douche and the worst diplomat and politician in the planet. But he's not a racist, racism doesn't belong in all the whole mess. You just misunderstading it. And Garrosh never wanted to get rid of the Tauren, nor he hated them or disliked for some reason, this is all your invention. He will be ofcourse when, as all the other Horde races, will openly oppose him.

Garrosh haven't willingly "cheated" the fight with Cairne. He was mad with Magatha when he discovered it and wanted her head.

You know which is the only difference between Grommash and Garrosh ? That the first never had the kind of responsibility Garrosh have now. Grom has never been a Warchief, never had the whole Orc population under his command and nor to command a Horde so multi-racial and diverse. And in the end, Garrosh is not that bloodthirsty, like his father was, is just aggressive and impetuos. But like his father, he truly want the good for the orcs and fight to ensure them a better future, the main problem is he is doing this in the Hellscream-way and, with Thrall that never had the guts to say to him clearly that his father was not only a hero but an orc that made A LOT of mistakes in his life (both because he wanted to boost the morale of Garrosh, and because in the end Grom was like an older brother for Thrall) Garrosh is completely following the Hellscream heritage and doing the same mistakes, beliving to follow that footsteps of the "great hero", like his father was, searching great powers in his desperate attempt of get rid of the Alliance, the only existing obstacle to the resources and the lands he desire for his people.

And i never said that the Tauren hate the orcs and not just Garrosh :

he have nothing against the tauren, actually the tauren have much more against him, and well, for pretty good reasons

Learn to read. Seriously. You're misunderstanding the entire lore, or you are just a clueless Grom fanboy or Garrosh free-hater.

[Florena]

It's hard for me to compare Grom and Garrosh, because we don't know how Grom would have acted if he hadn't been afflicted by the blood curse. Garrosh has no external forces to blame his bloodlust on. He's mag'har even.

[Dreknar20]

It's hard for me to compare Grom and Garrosh, because we don't know how Grom would have acted if he hadn't been afflicted by the blood curse. Garrosh has no external forces to blame his bloodlust on. He's mag'har even.

just by being Hellscreams it is in both their blood to be agressive and war-like

---------- Post added 2013-05-06 at 05:35 PM ----------

Yeah in this mess there's nearly no responsibility to give to Garrosh, but Cairne's reaction was understandable.

for someone said to be a wise, gentle, calm tauren, Cairne was acting just as hot-headed as Garrosh ever was at that scenario

---------- Post added 2013-05-06 at 05:36 PM ----------

Except he did it without honor, without dignity.

"There is no honorable way to kill, there is no gentle way to destroy" - Lincoln

---------- Post added 2013-05-06 at 05:38 PM ----------

EDIT: I do hope we get to kill him. I really don't want to deal with him again in the future. There is no character in World of Warcraft (Horde, Alliance or whatever) that I personally hated more than Garrosh..

And how does such a view of hate and bloodthirst make you any different from him?

[Florena]

Yeah, they're both hellscreams, but unlike Garrosh who isn't under the influence, Grom WAS. We'll never know for sure how he would have acted in WC 3 without that curse driving him. He might never have attacked the humans against Thrall's orders for exmaple, and thus never been sent to harvest lumber and never killed Cenarius, and still be alive today.

[Dreknar20]

Yeah, they're both hellscreams, but unlike Garrosh who isn't under the influence, Grom WAS. We'll never know for sure how he would have acted in WC 3 without that curse driving him. He might never have attacked the humans against Thrall's orders for exmaple, and thus never been sent to harvest lumber and never killed Cenarius, and still be alive today.

True, but during that time it wsnt free-for-all Fel corruption rampage
Though the feelings of bloodthirst were resurfacing for Grom

Though "bloodthirst: sldnt be considered too weird, as to me it just seems like an advanced from of adrenniline and sheer thrill of battle

[Zulkhan]

It's hard for me to compare Grom and Garrosh, because we don't know how Grom would have acted if he hadn't been afflicted by the blood curse. Garrosh has no external forces to blame his bloodlust on. He's mag'har even.

This is a common mistake. There is much in his past on Draenor for judge Grom for what he was. He was warmongering as Garrosh, and instead of Garrosh, he didn't even had a "noble" reason to justify it. The blood curse is a forgiving justification for his acts in Kalimdor, he was not the only orc with that curse in his veins, still, while others of his clan had strong doubts about drinking the demonic-tainted waters of the fountain, he had none, because he was bloodthirsty and impetuous by nature, as his past while living in Draenor, before drinking the blood of Mannoroth, proved.

for someone said to be a wise, gentle, calm tauren, Cairne was acting just as hot-headed as Garrosh ever was at that scenario

Yeah Cairne was all that but this doesn't mean that he will not be outraged by a horrible and murderous act. He really didn't had any reasons for belive something else. Nor there was any chance to find out the truth anyway, Garrosh saw Cairne's accusations false and insulting, Cairne had a lot of reasons for remain steady in his convinction, and nothing could change that.

[Florena]

True, but during that time it wsnt free-for-all Fel corruption rampage
Though the feelings of bloodthirst were resurfacing for Grom

Though "bloodthirst: sldnt be considered too weird, as to me it just seems like an advanced from of adrenniline and sheer thrill of battle

His line of "I can wait no longer. The humans must be slaughtered!" strikes me as something he wouldn't have said without the blood curse burning within him.

[Zulkhan]

"There is no honorable way to kill, there is no gentle way to destroy" - Lincoln

Eh, this is Lincoln's opinion. Garrosh had a pretty different one.

His line of "I can wait no longer. The humans must be slaughtered!" strikes me as something he wouldn't have said without the blood curse burning within him.

The blood curse was still present, but was not the same as before, until he drank again the blood of Mannoroth. While the other orcs fell in that kind of letargic state, like Saurfang, he was maybe the only orc able to "fight" it and maintain it's warrior spirit, because he had that "thrill" for the killing and savage battle, and didn't felt any kind of remorse at all. He had it in his own blood. And considering Garrosh under some kind of "bloodlust" is wrong, as i said, he's in a completely different position, one his father never had. Garrosh is dispensing bloodshed with a goal in mind, not for the love of spilling blood.

[Durandro]

Garrosh isn't like Grom. Garrosh is doing a very bad impression of Grom. He's acting how he thinks his father acted. And while many of the actions are similar, they are motivated for different reasons.

Grom was a berzerker, his rage was hard to control and only Thrall could calm him down. Most of the bad decisions Grom made was without Trall to get him in line and talk sense into him (only exception pre-corruption was when he repeatedly attacks the Alliance just after meeting up with Thrall again). He was driven by emotion, anger and hatred towards Humans based on personal experience and bitterness for the Old Horde's defeat. He was also a peerless warrior, extremely brave and savage.

Garrosh is a brooder, his rage seemingly generated by his own overactive imagination and mostly limited to brash comments and threats. His bad decisions are all in the face of good advice that he prompty ignores, and instead of apologising (like Grom does several times to Thrall) he shifts the blame to other people. His hatred of Humans seems baseless, driven only by some weird expectation that he SHOULD hate them - he doesn't actually have any real experience with them, or any other Azerothian race. If anything the only Alliance race he should dislike are the Broken Draenei who are trying to take over Nagrand. He's relatively unproven as a warrior - having a very hit-or-miss track record (the only time he seems to hold his own is against a Black Drake, which was right after making an awful command decision in Twilight Highlands), and seems to prefer to run away and sacrifice soldiers rather then put himself in any real danger.

So what I conclude from this is Garrosh is trying to be like his father - only he doesn't know who Grom really was. He only knows the stories. He either doesn't know or won't accept that his father was a deeply troubled and flawed person, and that his greatest strength was also his weakness. And he certainly doesn't share in Grom's respect for Thrall or willingness to die for the soul of the Orcish people.

[Florena]

Eh, this is Lincoln's opinion. Garrosh had a pretty different one.



The blood curse was still present, but was not the same as before, until he drank again the blood of Mannoroth. While the other orcs fell in that kind of letargic state, like Saurfang, he was maybe the only orc able to "fight" it and maintain it's warrior spirit, because he had that "thrill" for the killing and savage battle, and didn't felt any kind of remorse at all. He had it in his own blood. And considering Garrosh under some kind of "bloodlust" is wrong, as i said, he's in a completely different position, one his father never had. Garrosh is dispensing bloodshed with a goal in mind, not for the love of spilling blood.

I disagree. Baine notes in the Tides of War novel he could have destroyed Theramore without a single horde life lost, but he went ahead and did the siege anyway for the sole purpose of a 'glorious' battle. He has a thirst for blood.

As for Grom, I'll need to replay the missions again but it seemed to me that he was still under the effects of the blood curse to an extent even before drinking the blood a second time.

[Dreknar20]

His line of "I can wait no longer. The humans must be slaughtered!" strikes me as something he wouldn't have said without the blood curse burning within him.

Just gonna haveta disagree
Like I said before, being a Hellscream by genetics makes them aggressive

---------- Post added 2013-05-06 at 07:19 PM ----------

I disagree. Baine notes in the Tides of War novel he could have destroyed Theramore without a single horde life lost, but he went ahead and did the siege anyway for the sole purpose of a 'glorious' battle. He has a thirst for blood. .

not a totally accurate statement, its not a simple task to carry a giant bomb into the heart of Theramore, plus the whole issue of how to draw Alliance reinforcements into the city

---------- Post added 2013-05-06 at 07:21 PM ----------

Garrosh is dispensing bloodshed with a goal in mind, not for the love of spilling blood.

Thats something people seem to forget in their hate. Seeing as warfare being the sole and only reason for his lust for war.
"Our suffering is at an end , when this war is won our people will see prosperity at last"
"Look at this place Malkorok, this is the prosperity our people deserve"
(Been re-playin 5.1 content on my hunter xD)

---------- Post added 2013-05-06 at 07:22 PM ----------

And he certainly doesn't share in Grom's respect for Thrall or willingness to die for the soul of the Orcish people.

He did at one point.
Garrosh's first day in Ogrimmar, he was on the verge of pimp-slappin some women for shit-talking Thrall

[Zulkhan]

Grom was a berzerker, his rage was hard to control and only Thrall could calm him down. Most of the bad decisions Grom made was without Trall to get him in line and talk sense into him (only exception pre-corruption was when he repeatedly attacks the Alliance just after meeting up with Thrall again). He was driven by emotion, anger and hatred towards Humans based on personal experience and bitterness for the Old Horde's defeat. He was also a peerless warrior, extremely brave and savage.

Not excatly. Gul'dan found an excuse for leave him behind during the Second War. Grom haven't been defeated by the humans, nor his clan. He helped Ner'zhul later, but then forced to remain on Azeroth when the Dark Portal blow up, and just kept his ground against the humans of Lordearon for like 15 years i think, until he met Thrall.
No, Grom wasn't guided by hatred, anger or rage, like Arthas, but by the exciting thrill of the battle, of weapons clashing one another, of the spilled blood of the enemy, done in a great and glorious battle. He took bad decisions before he met Thrall, but still made a gigantic mistake in Kalimdor, he disobeyd Thrall in attacking the humans and didn't give a fuck about the fact that drinking demonic-tainted waters was something that went against all that Thrall taugth to him, even when others of his clan suggested that. Plus, even Garrosh took his worst decisions when Thrall wasn't with him.

So what I conclude from this is Garrosh is trying to be like his father - only he doesn't know who Grom really was. He only knows the stories. He either doesn't know or won't accept that his father was a deeply troubled and flawed person, and that his greatest strength was also his weakness. And he certainly doesn't share in Grom's respect for Thrall or willingness to die for the soul of the Orcish people.

Yeah is much more that Garrosh doesn't nearly know nothing about his father, just all the epic stories of how Grom freed the orcs, smashed a pit lord and gave his very life in the process. He knew that Grom was the first that lead the orcs to their dark destiny, but really nothing more than that, a thing that anyway was overshadowed by the heroic deed he later learned.
Anyway Garrosh absolutely respected Thrall, and we don't have any prove to say that he doesn't anymore, all the suggestions that he will rape Thrall like a ragdoll as he enters Orgrimmar is based on the extreme attitude that he have now against the Alliance and his allies, but he never liked both from the beginining. At all.

However is possible that now he could see Thrall as the one that was willing to leave their people to die in a desert, all for his obsessive moralism...Ouch.

Garrosh is a brooder, his rage seemingly generated by his own overactive imagination and mostly limited to brash comments and threats. His bad decisions are all in the face of good advice that he prompty ignores, and instead of apologising (like Grom does several times to Thrall) he shifts the blame to other people. His hatred of Humans seems baseless, driven only by some weird expectation that he SHOULD hate them - he doesn't actually have any real experience with them, or any other Azerothian race. If anything the only Alliance race he should dislike are the Broken Draenei who are trying to take over Nagrand.

He had some harsh attitudes in Northend (well, it was not only a Hellscream, but a young one) and despite he was too proud for apoligize with Thrall for his behavior on Dalaran, he was literally hurt by his "disappointment", a thing that now make me have a doubt. Garrosh condemned Blackscar for the backstabbing on the Broken Front, but can be possible he said that just to meet Thrall's approval and "forgiveness"?

About the humans i think it's just a deep despise, because they defeated the Orcs, and most importantly, they imprisoned his people like animals, that in his point of view, was even worst than kill them. This is now turned to a desperate hate probably for the entire Alliance, because it's an obstacle that he struggle to remove for his ultimate goal.

He's relatively unproven as a warrior - having a very hit-or-miss track record (the only time he seems to hold his own is against a Black Drake, which was right after making an awful command decision in Twilight Highlands), and seems to prefer to run away and sacrifice soldiers rather then put himself in any real danger.

WELL, he left a contrail of mogu corpses in the quest of the Korune long a lot of yards, and stroke Shan Kien in a definetly badass-way. Ok, was not a real prove of skill, but damn, was cool.

I don't think Garrosh's skills as a warrior are questionable, maybe were some time ago, but now seems pretty strong and held his ground against Varian in Tides of War in a pretty good way. For the rest i don't see Garrosh as a coward, i find enough logical that the Warchief doesn't risks his life in the same way of the other soldiers, if he wanted Garrosh could even stay in his throne room nearly all the times, instead is always in the forefront, even more of Varian.

I disagree. Baine notes in the Tides of War novel he could have destroyed Theramore without a single horde life lost, but he went ahead and did the siege anyway for the sole purpose of a 'glorious' battle. He has a thirst for blood.

A glorious battle doesn't mean automatically thirst for blood. And anyway that was an excuse. Remember, that while the logical explanation of the attack on Theramore as a military target was valid, that was the motivation for the Horde, but wasn't Garrosh's intention just conquer Theramore: he wanted to DESTROY IT with inside the higher number of Alliance important or strong members, and for reach this goal, he had to "fake" a direct attack, then retreat it, all for give Theramore the time for lure these important Alliance members coming for defend it.