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  1. #1

    DPS (or player) problems: please help!!!

    Hello chicks!!

    With this post I hope to find a way to solve my problems, mainly due to the sharing and exchange with other moonkins.

    I'm a moonkin, from day zero and so I know my class deeply (well enough to make me open a dedicated blog), I update myself and try to remain perfectly in place with my toon and with all game related aspects. So I try to balance the inability of temporal fulltime gameplay with a solid theoretical basis.
    This is to introduce my problem ... my DPS.
    As of the end of Cataclysm, but especially with Pandaria, my DPS has fallen heavily and I can't remedy it.
    Please note: gear, statistics, lag, interface are all in place. My toon is well reforged, with a good gear, and well balanced. The problem may be in the way it's "controlled". Although I'm familiar with main rotations (open, burst, spam, types of AOE, etc ...), during chaotic fights I can't maintain proper control of all these aspects and therefore can't conclude a "full" rotation, or I "forget" to cast one starsurge (for example)... in short, I'm a human being (as we all are) with the "limits" that prevent me from being efficient but especially multitasking (able to treat all aspects of the fight while I have to move, dispel, avoid damages, change target, etc.).
    As a result of these issues of rotation and / or motion, I find myself always among the last DPS in 10m raids, with guildmates above me with (usually) lower gear. I don't give a shit about the competition, but this is frustrating, and raid leaders (rightly) point me out.
    What do you wonder? Tips, ideas and suggestions, please...

    1) is it possible that DPS decreases A LOT following minor errors in the rotation or with a couple of spell not casted?

    2) are you sure (as a result of the request in step 1) that there're no other problems?

    3) how you bind your spells and how you manage to deal with the chaos of a fight as Horridon and in the meantime be able to DPS with the correct rotation? What advice do you have for distributing the spell on the keyboard, the mouse, etc..?

    I'm really heartbroken but especially tired, because I have changed 100 reforges, massacred 1,000 times the dummies of Stormwind , read tons of logs and post around the web, writing emails, posts and articles about it, changed dozens of keybind combinations... all for nothing!! I cannot come out. Since I consider myself a "serious" person I can't accept to be druid CL, guild officer, theorycrafting blogger, an active member of the community of WoW, and at the same time consider myself (or being considered) a bad player because "despite the gear his DPS is not accettable"...

    Before definitively surrender I would like to confront with other druids, and maybe evaluate solutions and ideas that I haven't addressed.

    I can link some logs but you'll see exactly what I say above; often I can't make an exact rotation due to excessive movements. I have not yet found a good way to move and control my spells at the same time. If the cause of my low DPS was just the "disorder", I wonder if you've any suggestions on how to put everything in order, spells, keys, macros, etc. ...

    Thanks to those who will have the patience to answer me and sorry for the WT (written in terrible english).

  2. #2
    Field Marshal Bizley's Avatar
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    I assume you have compared yourself to others many times. The main thing is - what do you mean by "a bad dps"?

  3. #3
    Blademaster
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    Link to your armory? Wols? And like said above, what do you call bad dps?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Bizley View Post
    I assume you have compared yourself to others many times. The main thing is - what do you mean by "a bad dps"?
    Example: two moonkins (me and another one), same fight, same positions and targets, almost the same gear (slight diffs).

    Me: 80k

    Other: 140k

    this gap may change with different fights and sometimes it's not terrible as that. But I'm always in pain because my performance depends on how lucky I am with the fight (less interrupt, less movement) and this is not correct.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-30 at 04:03 PM ----------

    Armory:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...thian/advanced

    One log (for example):
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...um/damageDone/

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelothian View Post
    Example: two moonkins (me and another one), same fight, same positions and targets, almost the same gear (slight diffs).

    Me: 80k

    Other: 140k

    this gap may change with different fights and sometimes it's not terrible as that. But I'm always in pain because my performance depends on how lucky I am with the fight (less interrupt, less movement) and this is not correct.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-30 at 04:03 PM ----------

    Armory:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...thian/advanced

    One log (for example):
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...um/damageDone/
    First i wanna say it depends greatly on what your job is on specific fights.

    That said, the difference should not be as huge as it currently is.

    From what i can see ( I dont speak Italian?) is your dot uptimes and eclipse rotation(NG uptime) is way way off. Especially the eclipse rotation is vital to good dps.
    It simply means you need to cast more to quicker rotate your eclipse and not hang about in an eclipse. This problem is common with old booms since staying in a certain eclipse use to have benefits. Now it destroys any potential of good dps.

    You say you know your class in and out, i want to ask how well is your knowledge on 5.2 rotation etc? I assume you pop your cd's on the first pool, and yet you can barely top 200k dps. There is something wrong there, either you don't use your cd's there, had to move with lightning (Huge dps loss during cd's) or simply wrong use of cd's.

    You also use inc only once, but i think you died there before you could use it again.

    For your questions.

    1. It is certainly possible, but i firmly believe that even with a better NG uptime and DoT uptime your problem would not be fixed yet. You have multiple issues wich can't simply be seen from a log. I would say pretty heavy rotational problems, unexpected from a day 1 boomkin like yourself.

    2. Like i said, there are certainly more issues. What they are are unknown, no offence ment but this is one of the hardest cases i ever layed eyes on.

    3. All my spells are mostly bound to my mouse. On fights like horridon you need to prio as a boomkin. The little adds usually have to little health to bother with (Dotting wise) and eclipse rotation still needs to be done.
    I have fairly good results with dotting the eclipsed dot on a few targets and move to the next eclipse. Dont stick in 1 eclipse to long.

  6. #6
    Field Marshal Bizley's Avatar
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    Based on that combat log:

    - low dots uptime (should be as close to 100% as possible)
    - no potion used?
    - you have got 1 less usage of INC & NV than other moonkin
    - strangely lots of Wraths
    - no CA used at all?

    Your gear, talents and glyphs are ok. It looks like there is a problem with your cooldowns and rotation.

  7. #7
    Thank you Miscam.
    This is my two rotations (according to the 5.2 moonkin rules):

    PREPARING: moving eclipse bar 1 step before lunar. 1 secs before the pull, drink an int pot

    OPENING: starfall+wrath, after lunar cast Incarnation, starfall (again), Nature's Vigil, both dots and starting with starfire spam until 0 points of lunar. After that cast Celestial Alignment, redot target, starfall again and go straight to solar with starfire. Use starsurge when available or immediately after proc.

    NORMAL: usual rotation. MF+SF at energy switch, Wrath or Starfire spam until next eclipse. Same use of starsurge. Use Nature's Vigil when available (because it has less CD of Incarnation and usually i've it free when i can use Incarnation again).

    The problem isn't the knowledge of rotation/cds/etc. but try to use it well during chaotic fights, and as you've written, don't stay too long without eclipse.
    I've to find a way to optimize my keybind to help me cast the right spell even under stress conditions.
    This is my actual setup.
    I've 2 macros. One macro for DOTS (it's a simple castsequence to apply both dots with the use of 1 key instead of 2) and one small macro that helps me to start the OPENING sequence in the right order (another simple castsequence: starfall, wrath, incarnation). This macros helps me to reduce the key under my hand...

    KEYBIND:

    1 - OPENING macro
    F2 - DOTS macro
    F3 - Starfire
    F4 - Wrath
    4 - Starsurge
    5 - Starfall

    num1: Nature's Vigil
    num2: Starfall

    Opening sequence: 1 - 1 - 1 - num1 - num2 - F2 - F2 - F3 (spam) ... if i want to use starsurge the 4 key is always comfortable because it's near F3/F4 keys. If i'm moving a lot and i want to use starfall, the num2 key is comfortable because i press it with the right hand...

    I know, maybe it's a bit complicate but if it were easy I would not have written this post, right?
    I'm ready to reset myself and my entire setup and try another way to use my moonkin but i need suggestions because I'm not so fast with keyboards (that's why I keep all keys close together).

    Thank you again.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-30 at 05:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bizley View Post
    Based on that combat log:

    - you have got 1 less usage of INC & NV than other moonkin
    Because i died. Normally I use INC+NV in the same time...

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-30 at 05:27 PM ----------

    Note: I'm using a Mac. The Mac keyboard is looking nice but it has a stupid thing. ESC key has the same gap that other keys therefore F1 and ESC are dangerously close. If I bind a spell to F1 there's a high risk that, during fights, I press ESC key instead, dropping my actual target...
    Last edited by Thelothian; 2013-04-30 at 03:22 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelothian View Post
    Note: I'm using a Mac. The Mac keyboard is looking nice but it has a stupid thing. ESC key has the same gap that other keys therefore F1 and ESC are dangerously close. If I bind a spell to F1 there's a high risk that, during fights, I press ESC key instead, dropping my actual target...
    Unbind the ESC Key, I did the same for my R (Reply to Whisper Key) as i kept fat fingering it during raids

  9. #9
    You already say it yourself. I doubt the knowledge of rotation is the issue, but more the execution of it.

    One thing i can say about your rotation is try it like this.

    On 3 seconds before pull Pot+Starfall, and start casting your wrath. So when the timer ends, your wrath is flying and you can start your rotation. Dont use the next SF till the last one is done, and Dot after Nv+Inc and then SS right away.

    Also i wouldn't recommend macroing your whole rotation up like that. I don't think it is doing good for your dps, and it might be the base of your problems. Especially if you keep using it throughout the fight.
    I would even drop the DoT macro. They are important to have at hand during fights like horridon, you don't want to waste your time multidotting both dots on everything, you will run out of NG, and getting from 100 lunar to solar is very painful without NG.

    Drop the macro completely, only use small macro for NV+Inc and CA+Berserking. Dont macro pots/ rotation into it. In the end you will get more and more used to the rotation.

    After you do this, spend cpl hours on a training dummy, perfecting the knowledge about your rotation and try and drop NV for HoTW when you get it down. NV is overrated in 5.2. But that is arguable.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Miscam View Post
    drop NV for HoTW when you get it down. NV is overrated in 5.2. But that is arguable.
    Seems its down to preference now, I have seen a few top moonkins swapping to it recently (assuming for ra-den)

  11. #11
    drop NV for HoTW when you get it down. NV is overrated in 5.2. But that is arguable.
    I cannot understand how to use it. Or maybe it's not necessary to use it because the buff is active all time. Right?
    The HoTW buff can be useful if i've to use spell/abilites out of my spec... Is it correct?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelothian View Post
    I cannot understand how to use it. Or maybe it's not necessary to use it because the buff is active all time. Right?
    The HoTW buff can be useful if i've to use spell/abilites out of my spec... Is it correct?
    Yep, and the main bonus is active straigh away. Like Drayarr said it is down to preference. And also boss.

    Taking HotW can also increase your raid utility by a big margin, besides the dps increase. I currently use it practically on every fight.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelothian View Post
    Thank you Miscam.
    This is my two rotations (according to the 5.2 moonkin rules):

    ...
    OPENING: starfall+wrath, after lunar cast Incarnation, starfall (again), Nature's Vigil, both dots and starting with starfire spam...
    Say you know all the rotation etc but... not sure if you just forgot to mention that the way you said it looks like ur overriding ur first first startfall (which is wrong) instead of just repoping it after the first one is done.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-30 at 01:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    Seems its down to preference now, I have seen a few top moonkins swapping to it recently (assuming for ra-den)
    If ur struggling keeping control of everything then HoTW is a much easier way (passive talent).

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by land View Post
    Say you know all the rotation etc but... not sure if you just forgot to mention that the way you said it looks like ur overriding ur first first startfall (which is wrong) instead of just repoping it after the first one is done.
    Agree... my opening rotation was taken from graylo guide (maybe a bit obsolete, now)...
    I'm logging in WoW to take HoTW talent.
    In the meantime i've found a friend with the same keyboard/keybind problems. He has resolved easily with th Logitech's G13 gamepad. I'll give it a try (maybe it's the solution).

    Thank you all for the help!!!

  15. #15
    Having both Dots bound to one key on a fight like Horridon (as it was previously pointed out) is a terrible mistake. You shouldn't have a cast sequence for your dots anyways since you should generally start with your uneclipsed dot so you can gain the small boost of lunar shower on the eclipsed dot by casting it second. That might be too small an increase to worry about, but on Horridon at least, you probably only want to bother multi-dotting with the eclipsed dot so you can get back to using your NG to get to the next eclipse state ASAP.

    Without knowing all the details, it COULD be possible that your macros are poorly written and therefore you are wasting globals on non functioning macros. I have known people who had this issue.
    I can teach you how to play, but I can't fix stupid.

  16. #16
    I am pretty sure one of the theorycrafters around here has mentioned you should dot the eclipsed dot first, since the uptime will be longer. But not 100% sure about it, maybe one will see this and confirm it.

  17. #17
    sounds like it's just down to execution in a raid environment.

    you know the basic rotations etc, and i'm guessing you can do it just fine when you're standing in front of the dummies. but there's a huge difference between that, and making decisions on the fly in a raid, when things change randomly.

    your binds sound really awkward. you don't need some fancy gaming hardware though. are you sure you can't just use normal binds? 1-6 q e r t f etc?

  18. #18
    I know my binds are terrible... I'll try to semplify it but in the meantime can you (you all) post your binds? I'll use it as an example/reference to try another setup.
    Having both Dots bound to one key on a fight like Horridon (as it was previously pointed out) is a terrible mistake. You shouldn't have a cast sequence for your dots anyways since you should generally start with your uneclipsed dot so you can gain the small boost of lunar shower on the eclipsed dot by casting it second. That might be too small an increase to worry about, but on Horridon at least, you probably only want to bother multi-dotting with the eclipsed dot so you can get back to using your NG to get to the next eclipse state ASAP.
    You're right. I'm using macro only to reduce binds. After 1 year with this setup it'll be difficult change to a one-key sequence, because mentally I will continue to think that with one key I'm casting 2 spells. But worth a try (and a little training period).
    I'm sure that my problem is purely physiological. I've a friend who had the same problem but thanks to the G13, he has brilliantly solved it. I've a chance to try the G13 without purchasing it. Even here, in my opinion, it's worth a try.
    Yesterday I've slightly changed the opening sequence:

    PREPARING: moving eclipse bar 1 step before lunar. 1 secs before the pull, drink an int pot

    OPENING: starfall+wrath, after lunar cast Incarnation, SS, both dots and starting with starfire spam. In the meantime, refresh starfall when previous has ended. At 0 points of luna cast Celestial Alignment and redot target, starfall again but ONLY after previous is over and go straight to solar with starfire. Use SS when available or immediately after proc. With this I'm using 3 COMPLETE starfall without any "overwrite".

    NORMAL: usual rotation. MF+SF at energy switch, Wrath or Starfire spam until next eclipse. Same use of starsurge. When HERO is applied, cast Incarnation, drink pot, and go straight with a sequence similar to the opening one.

    It seems good (with HoTF... great talent). Now I'll try to change my keyboard/bind/device setup and MAYBE the work will be finished.

    Thank you again, guys... Your replies are very useful.

  19. #19
    The Patient Müdür's Avatar
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    I'd suggest you to use some addons to help you notice your cooldowns/procs. I play moonkin as a alt, and I too have problems with tracking starsurge. So I made Weak Auras visual to see whenever its off cd. Also made additional visuals for celesial alignment and other burst cds.

    And yes your keybinds seems very odd and difficult to reach. I never use F buttons. I always keybind Q E R T F G Z X C, and I replace original usages of the keybinds with shift combinations. (i.e shift+c for char screen, shift+r for reply etc)

  20. #20
    Have you tried to change your talents sometimes? Since you're having problems to keep a good rotation while moving, you may want to try Displacer Beast to minimize the time you spend running. Maximizing the time you can stand still is a really important thing to keep your mind on as a Moonkin.
    I like to use SotF on some fights with major movement to make sure moving from an eclipse to another is doable while NG is up. You might want to try it on Horridon. (I don't even need to hard cast once in this fight. Multidot + SS all the way). It may not be the optimal way, but I think it's the easyer way.

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