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  1. #1

    Mogu Lore discrepancy

    As a Person who is interested in Lore i noticed a few "discrepancies" surrounding the Mogu and their new lore from 5.2.


    Mogu Origin:


    The archaeology description of the Mogu states that a race of brutes stumbled onto the magical powers of the vale, and became bigger and smarter which are now known as the Mogu.

    5.2 Lore however states the Mogu were Titan constructs which got cursed with flesh.

    Both pretty much give different explanations for the Mogu origin.

    Possible Explanation:

    Wrathion gives interesting whispers about Mogu / Titan Lore everytime you loot a Titan Runestone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=murzhAcDOUE ; They start at roughly 0:50)

    It is mentioned that the Mogu somehow were able to reverse the Curse of Flesh, it is possible that they used the Power of the Vale to at least partially reverse the Curse of Flesh, but even with this explanation both sources contradict each other.


    Location of the Sacred Mount (Isle of Thunder):

    As detailed in http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Sacred_Mount, the Mountain in which Lei Shen found Ra-den, sank during the Sundering while only it's top remained above the Sea, which now known as the Isle of Thunder.

    However Ra-dens Encounter Journal says:
    "Lei Shen's life changed forever when he stumbled into a dark chamber below what are now the Mogu'shan Vaults. Legend has it he found an ancient titan keeper guarding a miraculous device known as the Engine of Nalak'sha.


    Obviously, the Mogu'shan Vaults and the Isle of thunder are at 2 different places.

    Also, it is said that the Lei Shen he built a forbidden city atop the Sacred Mount while the Mogu'shan vaults were built as a shrine dedicated to the Mogu Empire, if they were the same place, Lei Shen could have hardly built 2 different things at the same location.

    Which would also bring Feng's existence into question, as further Mogu Ruler abandoned the Sacred Mount because the storms seemed to go on a rampage there without Lei Shen.


    Possible Explanation:

    The Sacred Mount and the Mogu'shan vaults were the same place before the Sundering but were seperated later,though this theory has some holes, it is the only explanation i can think of except a mistake by Blizzard dev's, that would be a rather huge mistake, as 2 Raid Instances would actually be at the same place.


    Lei Shen vs. Ra-den

    Speaking of Lei Shen and Ra-den, this may not be a huge "discrepancy" as above but rather general question, how was Lei Shen able to defeat Ra-den?

    Lei Shen was a strong warrior, but defeating a Titan Keeper is a different story.

    Possible Explanation:

    In my opinion, it's not logical that this "fight" actually happened under any conditions where you could say that Lei Shen directly fought against Ra-den, Lei Shen couldn't be that strong beforehand.

    If you listened to the soundfiles of those Titan Runestone, it is mentioned that Ra-den actually fell silent / asleep and in http://www.wowpedia.org/Lei_Shen_%28object%29 it is stated that "Once Lei Shen had come of age and commanded his own legions, he announced his intent to awaken the gods"

    Ra-den itself may not actually be awake or at least in a condition to fight when Lei Shen ventured into the Sacred Mount.

    Why Ra-den was asleep (or weakened) is unknown, but Lei Shen maybe discovered how he could claim Ra-den powers for his own while he tried to "awaken" Ra-den
    After all, it is never directly stated that these 2 beings fought against eachother, you merely know that Lei Shen took the Powers of Storm from Ra-den and then used Ra-den as his Anima can.

    How Lei Shen discovered that Ra-dens Blood can be used to create stuff is a mystery, though.


    Mogu Females:


    Twin Consorts Encounter journal says:

    "Rumored to be the only known female mogu in existence"

    www.wowhead.com/npc=70440 and the associated quest http://www.wowhead.com/quest=32715.

    The Encounter journal says that the Twin Consorts are the only female Mogu, while the existence of the Last Mogu queen proves that Female Mogu did exist and Lei Shen killed his own queen for some reason.


    Possible Explanation:

    Maybe the Mogu experienced something similiar as the Vrykul, that female Mogu gave birth to seemingly "inferior" childs, while the Vrykul chose to kill off the newborn, maybe the Mogu chose to kill off Females which gave birth to "impure mogu" to preserve to impurity of their race?

    And Lei Shen then created the Twin Consorts that he will still have some fun, there's a reason why they were called "Twin concubines" on the PTR.


    Mogu Procreation & Age:

    The Problem of a Race which kills off it's females (or simply lacks females) will have a problem with their procreation, that Mogu procreate the "usual" way can be taken from http://www.wowpedia.org/Lei_Shen_%28object%29.

    Young Lei Shen was born the son of a warlord in the terrible Age of a Hundred Kings. Like his brothers, "

    If Lei Shen was the son of Warlord and had brothers, it's hardly possible that the Mogu somehow procreate other than Dwarves and Gnomes, which technically suffer the same fate as the Mogu.


    As stated above, a Race without females runs into problems after some time, as long as they are not immortal.

    The Mogu can hardly be immortal, Dwarves and Gnome live very long but are not immortal, Lei Shen died of old age as well.

    But how could Iron Qon be present in the Trailer when Lei Shen's coffin as brought into his tomb as well as Raid Instance?
    How could Shan Kien (http://www.wowpedia.org/Shan_Kien) still be alive?
    How could so many Mogu still exist if there aren't any females around?

    Possible explanation:
    Iron Qon could have been similiar to Lei Shen, he was "dead" and got ressurected by the Zandalari, though Lei Shen corpse got preserved by Titan power, Iron Qon may have been placed under similiar "protection" by the Thunder King.

    As far Shan Kien and the procreation thing, i can't think off any explanation.

    Shan Kien is an enigma anyway, he tried to hide the bell from the Shado-pan, when those were actually founded after the last Pandaren Emperor.
    (= shortly after the Sundering).
    It's hardly possible that no Pandaren tried to find the Bell until the Shado-pan were founded, not even focusing on the matter that Shan Kien is over 10000 Years old.


    Saurok Creation:

    The last thing on my list, the Lorewalker story about the Saurok tells that they used Basilisks which got shaped into Saurok.

    However, in 5.2 you learn the the Saurok were created by using Anima.

    "Deep within the bowels of Lei Shen's island citadel, mogu flesh-shapers formed the saurok out of a magical substance of unknown origin." (http://www.wowpedia.org/Primordius)


    Possible Explanation:

    It's a similiar issue as the 1st one, the 5.0 explanation pretty much contradict the 5.2 explanation.

    Maybe the "powers of the vale" were used as well, but to reform the flesh created by the Anima, that Anima and the Well were used in conjunction, one shaped the base while the other one was used for the finishing touch.

    Or Blizzard simply got sloppy in terms of story telling, that is possibly the most logical explanation for these issues presented above, as i could hardly think that Blizzard could bend story that way that any source is still true while explaining it logically.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  2. #2
    Epic! Bosbeer's Avatar
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    Well, the only thing I can say about ,for example the Saurok, Is that the information you get in 5.2 is newly discovered, the thing about the basilisk could just be Pandaren suggestion, the stories they passed on could've changed over the ages.

    Things about Iron Qon and female mogu are weird too me aswell..

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Or Blizzard simply got sloppy in terms of story telling, that is possibly the most logical explanation for these issues presented above, as i could hardly think that Blizzard could bend story that way that any source is still true while explaining it logically.
    I've noticed some of these discrepancies myself, and unfortunately I suspect the answer is the above quote. They could do a great deal to dispel that impression if they would only address the discrepancy - straighten out the timeline for these events as it were.

    The mogu started out as stone, were cursed with flesh, came upon the Vale, had some of their original titan-creation nature restored, and became the force they are today - okay, sure, fine, that works. It's not mentioned anywhere though - kind've irritating.

    I had the same questions re.: Mogu reproduction - do they all come from engines like the Forge of the Endless? Are there mogu females just hidden away somewhere churning out bebbies? Do males produce offspring somehow? Are they like Kronans, which would be the best thing?

    As for the saurok, anima appears to be the medium by which flesh-shaping occurs, ie. you dip something in anima and then you use magic to change it, as opposed to building something purely out of anima. It's the blood of a titan creation after all, it's got to be filled with energies related to the forging of living beings, but even the titans used existing material to do so (shaping creatures of stone, etc). Saurok nests appear to be places saturated with energies from the Vale, so the waters there may also have been used to aid in saurok reproducing naturally after their initial creation.

  4. #4
    The mogu used the engine to reproduce, there were no females until Lei Shen made them and he made them because he thought they were pretty, not for procreation. Thats why when we go into the engine we fight a never ending flow of mogu until we defeat the two bosses.

    I cant remember which dungeon it is but at one point you can talk to a titan construct who gives you information about the disks that you give to the dwarves, this titan keeper specifically says that dwarves are made from rock (as are mogu) and were designed to become a biological self-replicating species when placed in the presence of an environmental hazard, and when asked what that environmental hazard is the construct doesn't have that data. That environmental hazard may well be an old god, which allows the now biological species to resist an old god. So in essence an old god doesnt inflict the curse of flesh but rather its presence causes the construct dwarf to become a flesh dwarf.

    The mogu were not designed to reproduce as most species were, they were constructed in the engine. No females. No babies. When the Old God died and the Sha errupted forth the mogu fell victim to the emotions of the 7 sha, pride, anger, hatred, ect. Which is why they kick puppies.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-30 at 08:10 PM ----------

    As far as the Saurok thing goes, do you know if the word Saurok is being used in the plural or singular? They could of been talking about Primodius himself rather than all Saurok.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-30 at 08:20 PM ----------

    I am also going to tin foil hat how Lei shen defeated the Keeper Ra-den, that being that Ra-den saw what happened when the Old God died and became an even worse mess than the old god and may have lost hope, sealed itself away in the engine room and this was the point the Mogu stopped getting direction and orders (remember also that a titan fell, and that titan may of been radens boss, thus the chain of command was broken.). Ra-den may of just rolled over when Lei Shen came for his heart.

  5. #5
    The questions of Mogu and gender I've always found interesting. It mirrors the same arguments and debates that have gone on about Earthen before in the past.

    Earthen were sculpted by the Titans and eventually evolved into the Dwarfs we have today, via the curse of flesh. BUT, Earthen were clearly created genderless (most of their pants seem to be a part of them rather than them wearing clothes.. so how did the Male and Female Dwarfs come about?

    It makes it even more interesting that in Deepholm, when interacting with the Earthen one clearly states that another is his son, despite the obvious lack of any females nearby. So who was the mother? Was there even a mother or did he sculpt him or is it just a title given to another Earthen taken under his wing?

    It's clear that the Titan creations could originally seemingly reproduce asexually without genders, and it wasn't until after the Curse of the Flesh that sexual dimorphism happened and they began to reproduce sexually. Mogu weren't "alive" for that long so it could be that this distinction had barely begun.. but they also like sticking spirits into newly created bodies to create new mogu, so in all likelyhood, "female" mogu were probably just carved stoneborn, carved with boobs and then had souls put inside them, which makes them more transgender mogu than female mogu exactly I guess.

    But all of this is in a world where a stag had sex with the Moon and managed to have a child, who's son then went on to have sex with a rock to make Centaus.

    I'd take anything with a pinch of salt.

  6. #6
    The Patient Miloscub's Avatar
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    I think Iron Qon just went into slumber like all the mogu and was awakened again by Lei Shen,also Lei shen might be way older then he is so he didn't die of old age,just a thought,but yeah alot of this is unclear still,I hope they explain it througly in the next patch or two...

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Mogu Females:


    Twin Consorts Encounter journal says:

    "Rumored to be the only known female mogu in existence"

    www.wowhead.com/npc=70440 and the associated quest http://www.wowhead.com/quest=32715.

    The Encounter journal says that the Twin Consorts are the only female Mogu, while the existence of the Last Mogu queen proves that Female Mogu did exist and Lei Shen killed his own queen for some reason.
    Key words highlighted
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Key words highlighted
    Point remains, where are the other female Mogu?

    Why did Lei Shen kill his queen and created 2 female constructs?

    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    But all of this is in a world where a stag had sex with the Moon and managed to have a child, who's son then went on to have sex with a rock to make Centaus.
    To me, this falls under mythology.

    But i think "Gods" in fantasy do not create Children like Humans or animals "create" their offspring.

    They may create their offspring in a direct sense, they both fuse their powers to create a new being.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2013-04-30 at 08:47 PM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Point remains, where are the other female Mogu?

    Why did Lei Shen kill his queen and created 2 female constructs?
    Cause he can? Maybe his first queen he made turned out to nag too much, or tried to kill him. The mogu are a strange race. They seem to have organic and non organic systems. Also to the procreation Lei Shen might have been "born" by being made, and there might be a reason he was a emperor's son (made from the same stone? Made specifically to the Emperor's instructions, simply picked?" And while some of this is probably Blizzard teams not communicating I wouldn't call it lazy.
    "I just wanted them to hand us our award! But they were just talk!, talk!, talk!......" - Wrathion

  10. #10
    thanks for the post op always wondered where all this was from

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    As a Person who is interested in Lore i noticed a few "discrepancies" surrounding the Mogu and their new lore from 5.2.

    ....

    Lei Shen vs. Ra-den

    Speaking of Lei Shen and Ra-den, this may not be a huge "discrepancy" as above but rather general question, how was Lei Shen able to defeat Ra-den?

    Lei Shen was a strong warrior, but defeating a Titan Keeper is a different story.

    Possible Explanation:

    In my opinion, it's not logical that this "fight" actually happened under any conditions where you could say that Lei Shen directly fought against Ra-den, Lei Shen couldn't be that strong beforehand.

    If you listened to the soundfiles of those Titan Runestone, it is mentioned that Ra-den actually fell silent / asleep and in http://www.wowpedia.org/Lei_Shen_%28object%29 it is stated that "Once Lei Shen had come of age and commanded his own legions, he announced his intent to awaken the gods"

    Ra-den itself may not actually be awake or at least in a condition to fight when Lei Shen ventured into the Sacred Mount.

    Why Ra-den was asleep (or weakened) is unknown, but Lei Shen maybe discovered how he could claim Ra-den powers for his own while he tried to "awaken" Ra-den
    After all, it is never directly stated that these 2 beings fought against eachother, you merely know that Lei Shen took the Powers of Storm from Ra-den and then used Ra-den as his Anima can.

    How Lei Shen discovered that Ra-dens Blood can be used to create stuff is a mystery, though.
    I have a theory that may be a bit dramatic but would explain Alot of the secrets held by both Lei Shen and Ra-den.

    Ra-den willingly handed over his Titanic Power over Lightning after he himself was corrupted with the curse of the flesh.

    Why Lei Shen? Feeling the onset of mortal emotions as his own weakness upon seeing one of his creations wander in alone and unafraid he probably entrusted the task of Defending the Vale against the servants of the Old Gods (Mantid) and restoring order to Pandaria. Not realizing what such power would do to an all to eager Thunder King he completed the task handed to him with an Iron Fist by enslaving Pandaria.

    Why did Ra-den let himself be tortured? Ra-den despising his now mortal frame most likely sadistically willingly let the Mogu take apart his body to see his task complete. In the video of the Fight against Ra-den the first thing he does is easily break free of the bonds restraining him to the chair. Also it seems that he is not as weak as we were lead to believe from his abuse. Ra-den's own shame (Pride) was the reason for his silence towards the Mogu.

    Titans and their constructs don't bleed, they are made of stone or metal. Ra'den's blood is everywhere and in insane amounts throughout the raid. Whichever Old God is responsible for this act was apparently strong enough to fell a Higher Being. The Nature of the Blood is more Dark Magic (Old God) than Titanic in Origin which may account for the Mogu's inability to perfect the Saurok. Only negative emotions similar to that of Y'shaarj's Shadows(Sha) could animate the Dark Animus. I came to this from this quote from the Dungeon Journal: "He poured this negative emotion into his next, and most successful, creation: the Dark Animus." Which leads me to conclude that the Blood that infected Ra-den to bleed is more Y'shaarj's than his.

    <Now I set down my Tinfoil hat>

  12. #12
    How often do we get things wrong regarding history numerous times before we get it right?

    Honestly, I think it makes things more interesting if Blizzard had two or three differing explanations for origins and creations of things through the many eons of Azeroth without a definitive true answer. Leaves some speculation of "which is right? Are any of them?" with a little mystery surrounding the true origin of things.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Landin55 View Post
    Cause he can? Maybe his first queen he made turned out to nag too much, or tried to kill him.
    The questtext itself is pretty much states that Monara's spirit is filled with sadness, i strongly doubt that she tried to kill Lei Shen, else it would be more...hateful.


    Quote Originally Posted by Landin55 View Post
    Also to the procreation Lei Shen might have been "born" by being made
    Well, who made Lei Shen?

    Mogu were created by Titans, with the Titans no longer present and their keeper being "silent", who could have created new Mogu?

    Also, the story of Sparkmancer Vu may be interesting for this matter. http://www.wowpedia.org/Sparkmancer_Vu

    "Born into the same tribe, the two mogu grew as close as brothers. As children, they played, quarreled, and challenged one another."

    If something is created, i strongly doubt that it would have a childhood and this whole sentence fits more into a more classical idea of procreation of a race.

    also:

    "Their brotherhood was also the source of much conjecture and fiction. The peasant masses enjoyed writing stories, including a famous saga about their feud over a woman."

    The idea to fight over a woman seems to be not unkown to Mogu, which indicates that they *were* at least similiar to other humanoid races on this matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Landin55 View Post
    And while some of this is probably Blizzard teams not communicating I wouldn't call it lazy.
    The problem is not laziness, but the fact that Blizzard seems to write new origins for some lore they established just a few months ago and seem to, for example, switch between "Mogu are immortal" and "Mogu are not immortal"

    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Honestly, I think it makes things more interesting if Blizzard had two or three differing explanations for origins and creations of things through the many eons of Azeroth without a definitive true answer. Leaves some speculation of "which is right? Are any of them?" with a little mystery surrounding the true origin of things.
    Well, this would work for some cases.

    But for example the thing with Mogu'shan Vaults and the Isle of Thunder.

    Both Places obviously exist, but at different places, yet some sources act as they are the same place while other tell that they are different places.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lastlivingsoul View Post
    Why Lei Shen? Feeling the onset of mortal emotions as his own weakness upon seeing one of his creations wander in alone and unafraid he probably entrusted the task of Defending the Vale against the servants of the Old Gods (Mantid) and restoring order to Pandaria. Not realizing what such power would do to an all to eager Thunder King he completed the task handed to him with an Iron Fist by enslaving Pandaria.
    Lei Shen felt emotions, he was hateful and angry as well.

    http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Duel_of_...r_and_Strength

    pretty much confirms this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lastlivingsoul View Post
    Why did Ra-den let himself be tortured? Ra-den despising his now mortal frame most likely sadistically willingly let the Mogu take apart his body to see his task complete. In the video of the Fight against Ra-den the first thing he does is easily break free of the bonds restraining him to the chair. Also it seems that he is not as weak as we were lead to believe from his abuse. Ra-den's own shame (Pride) was the reason for his silence towards the Mogu.
    The Difference between a Titan Keeper and Construct may be the fact that Titan Keeper wield the very essence of a Titan, that means the very Essence of creation.

    It may not be his Blood in a sense as an actual living body has it.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2013-04-30 at 09:24 PM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  14. #14
    High Overlord Schockadin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    As a Person who is interested in Lore i noticed a few "discrepancies" surrounding the Mogu and their new lore from 5.2.

    Location of the Sacred Mount (Isle of Thunder):

    As detailed in http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Sacred_Mount, the Mountain in which Lei Shen found Ra-den, sank during the Sundering while only it's top remained above the Sea, which now known as the Isle of Thunder.

    However Ra-dens Encounter Journal says:
    "Lei Shen's life changed forever when he stumbled into a dark chamber below what are now the Mogu'shan Vaults. Legend has it he found an ancient titan keeper guarding a miraculous device known as the Engine of Nalak'sha.


    Obviously, the Mogu'shan Vaults and the Isle of thunder are at 2 different places.

    Also, it is said that the Lei Shen he built a forbidden city atop the Sacred Mount while the Mogu'shan vaults were built as a shrine dedicated to the Mogu Empire, if they were the same place, Lei Shen could have hardly built 2 different things at the same location.

    Which would also bring Feng's existence into question, as further Mogu Ruler abandoned the Sacred Mount because the storms seemed to go on a rampage there without Lei Shen.
    That's an easy one. The ancient keeper of the engine of Nalak'sha should be Elegon (obviously an titan-related being), so the engine is not located in the sacred mountain. Yes, these are two seperated locations, but nowhere it is mentioned it should be otherwise.


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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    How often do we get things wrong regarding history numerous times before we get it right?

    Honestly, I think it makes things more interesting if Blizzard had two or three differing explanations for origins and creations of things through the many eons of Azeroth without a definitive true answer. Leaves some speculation of "which is right? Are any of them?" with a little mystery surrounding the true origin of things.
    Yep, this is one of my favorite things about WoW lore. Real life history is open to interpretation -- different groups have different "facts" about some things, and it's safe to assume that no one set of perceptions has a monopoly on "truth".

    Tauren believe their paladins and priests are empowered by the sun itself, but we know they're empowered by the Light. Tauren and Nelves have different takes on their shared spiritual history. Velene believes Elune is a Naaru while the Nelves maintain she is not.

    I think people get too caught up in having facts layed out for them. How are contemporary characters supposed to know, for a fact, what happened millenia ago ? Odds are likely the tales get distorted with time, and even firsthand accounts of events (of which there are few) are probably twisted.

    Try whispering a 10-second statement in someone's ear, and have them whisper that in someone else's ear, down for maybe five people, then see if what is repeated back to you is exactly what you said. Now imagine this over millions of people over thousands of years. Not to mention the fact that real people in our own real world at one point took what we consider today to be myths and fiction, to be facts.

    I understand the desire as consumers of this story to want to have the "facts", but personally I think the peek into the lives of this fictional cultures is more fascinating than simply having the details of this game universe layed out. "This is how it is: ..." is less interesting to me than "This is these peoples' experience of ..."
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Schockadin View Post
    That's an easy one. The ancient keeper of the engine of Nalak'sha should be Elegon (obviously an titan-related being), so the engine is not located in the sacred mountain. Yes, these are two seperated locations, but nowhere it is mentioned it should be otherwise.
    "Lei Shen's life changed forever when he stumbled into a dark chamber below what are now the Mogu'shan Vaults. Legend has it he found an ancient titan keeper guarding a miraculous device known as the Engine of Nalak'sha. No one knows what transpired between the two beings, but Lei Shen later emerged from the site bristling with the power to forge an empire. The keeper's fate -- and his current whereabouts -- remain a mystery."

    That is Ra-den's full Encounter Journal Entry.

    I doubt that Encounter Journal is referring to Elegon in the underlined part, especially when it's the journal entry for Ra-den.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Tauren and Nelves have different takes on their shared spiritual history. Velene believes Elune is a Naaru while the Nelves maintain she is not.
    Well if she's not, chances are good that she's either an old god or one of their old buddies :/

    I agree though, WC universe is set in stone. It irks me when religious stuff is in the game, because within the Warcraft Universe it's categorically wrong. (which is why it irked me when Sylvannas saw Arthas in Hell, as there isn't a hell or heaven in WC, let alone a divine being judging people and posting them off accordinly)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    "Lei Shen's life changed forever when he stumbled into a dark chamber below what are now the Mogu'shan Vaults. Legend has it he found an ancient titan keeper guarding a miraculous device known as the Engine of Nalak'sha. No one knows what transpired between the two beings, but Lei Shen later emerged from the site bristling with the power to forge an empire. The keeper's fate -- and his current whereabouts -- remain a mystery."
    It's quite clear from this that Lei Shen must have moved him/imprisoned him elsewhere. They KNEW he WAS under MSV, but now his current wheareabouts are a mystery.. ie, they know he's not there anymore.
    Last edited by rogueMatthias; 2013-04-30 at 09:38 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    It's quite clear from this that Lei Shen must have moved him/imprisoned him elsewhere. They KNEW he WAS under MSV, but now his current wheareabouts are a mystery.. ie, they know he's not there anymore.
    "In the days before Lei Shen founded the old empire, there stood a high plateau shrouded in perpetual storm. It was called the "Thundering Mountain," and was the ancestral seat of the one the mogu once called "master."(Ra-den)

    History does not record what Lei Shen found when he ascended the mountain and disappeared into its vaults. But when he returned, he wielded the power of a thousand storms and declared the mount to be his seat of power. Atop its summit he built a majestic and forbidden city."(Throne of Thunder)

    http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Sacred_Mount

    According to this, This Mountain in which Ra-den was hiding, is very same Mountain on which Lei Shen built the Throne of thunder which sank into the sea and became the Isle of Thunder.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


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  19. #19
    Mechagnome SanderZammy's Avatar
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    Wow RogueMatthias, that last sentence is just begging to become a signature.

    on topic:
    Here are the explanations I could come up with, none of it confirmed by any Blizzard source ofcourse, but it's just my take on it.
    [Mogu Origin] Mogu are titan constructs, then get cursed with flesh, I'll assume this makes them weaker. Then, they "stumbled onto the magical powers of the vale, and became bigger and smarter." - by reversing the Curse (a 'weakness'). Also, if this is what you're trying to say, 'a race of brutes' is not contradictory to either titan constructs or flesh-cursed titan constructs.
    [Sacred Mount/Mogu'shan Vaults] I'll be honest, I hadnt heard the Sacred Mount story before this. I just read up on it and I can't find any explanation - I'd say it was unofficially retconned, or simply a writer who got things messed up.
    Or if you really want to take the speculation far away from what we know for sure, you could say that the Vaults and the Isle of Thunder were connected underground, with this tunnel collapsing as the Mount/Isle sunk into the sea because tunnels don't bend nicely. The entrance could be somewhere in the sunken part of the Mount, or even inside the Throne of Thunder - keep in mind that we haven't seen nearly all of it. If you consider the fact that we only saw the 4th through (7th - 9th? Not sure where we get back into the palace itself rather than its sewers) boss because Lei Shen collapsed a bridge we were about to pass - we can only imagine how many more creatures of boss-like strength are still walking all around the palace!
    [Lei Shen vs Ra-den] You pretty much answered this yourself, in a weakened or dormant state, anything could have happened. As for your last sentence, "How Lei Shen discovered that Ra-dens Blood can be used to create stuff is a mystery, though." True, but that could be said for many things that our bodies do as well - without scientific knowledge, you could even see wounds healing themselves as magic. And it is still a fantasy universe, so we can go a bit crazier than science can.
    [Mogu Females] On its own, not a discrepancy. Titans created Mogu as stone beings, presumably without means for procreation, or a desire for it.
    Your quote: "And Lei Shen then created the Twin Consorts that he will still have some fun, there's a reason why they were called "Twin concubines" on the PTR." As people love to say, PTR is PTR. It's mostly there for bugs ofcourse, but it's also an opportunity for lore discrepancies to be reported before it's released.
    [Procreation & Age] 'Born' and 'brothers' can be seen figuratively - even a newly created ('born') stone construct would need to be shown/taught how to do things, in this case by the warlord who acts as a father-figure, possibly with more 'children'/students. Or 'brothers' could just mean his 'generation' of mogu, it's fair to assume that he wasn't the only newly created mogu at the time. Honestly, I can't explain dwarves and gnomes without contradicting the previous point (Mogu Females) so you got me on that one.
    Iron Qon & Shan Kien: it's indeed possible that mogu simply DO have a 10,000+ year lifespan and are still alive to this day. After all, there are enough alive to have several camps on mainland Pandaria (even after 10,000+ years!), hundreds if not thousands of them on the Isle and then loads more to act as trash in ToT.
    After reading through the quests again, I noticed that there was no mention of hiding the Divine Bell from the Shado-Pan. http://www.wowpedia.org/Divine_Bell - simply hiding it from any enemy until the return of the Thunder King (this is interesting though - they knew/suspected he'd be back!).
    [Saurok Creation] I'm gonna go with: Basilisk + Anima (or whatever 'magical substance of unknown origin' it may be) = Saurok. Can't really see the discrepancy here.


    I'm sorry if I ended up making that a very long post, I just love doing this kind of thing XD would love to hear some input and criticism on my explanations for these problems =)


    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Sacred_Mount According to this, This Mountain in which Ra-den was hiding, is very same Mountain on which Lei Shen built the Throne of thunder which sank into the sea and became the Isle of Thunder.
    That's actually exactly the OP's point. On the one hand there's that, and on the other hand there's Ra-den's dungeon journal entry:
    Lei Shen's life changed forever when he stumbled into a dark chamber below what are now the Mogu'shan Vaults. Legend has it he found an ancient titan keeper guarding a miraculous device known as the Engine of Nalak'sha. No one knows what transpired between the two beings, but Lei Shen later emerged from the site bristling with the power to forge an empire. The keeper's fate -- and his current whereabouts -- remain a mystery.
    Isle of Thunder =/= Mogu'shan Vaults, but we have in-game text stating both are true.

    Another edit because I really love spending my school evenings on discussing lore way too much:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Well, who made Lei Shen? Mogu were created by Titans, with the Titans no longer present and their keeper being "silent", who could have created new Mogu?

    Also, the story of Sparkmancer Vu may be interesting for this matter. http://www.wowpedia.org/Sparkmancer_Vu
    "Born into the same tribe, the two mogu grew as close as brothers. As children, they played, quarreled, and challenged one another."
    If something is created, i strongly doubt that it would have a childhood and this whole sentence fits more into a more classical idea of procreation of a race.

    Also: "Their brotherhood was also the source of much conjecture and fiction. The peasant masses enjoyed writing stories, including a famous saga about their feud over a woman."
    The idea to fight over a woman seems to be not unkown to Mogu, which indicates that they *were* at least similiar to other humanoid races on this matter.
    Who made mogu after the Titans were gone? Well, the Engine of Nalak'sha, and possibly other similar machines.
    We don't know anything about the early 'life' of a titan construct - Earlier in this post, I already argued that teaching the mogu how to do the Titans' bidding is a parallel to our idea of raising children.
    Lastly, it's exactly this idea of fighting over a woman. They could simply have seen this happen with other races and made up some Lei Shen fanfic - for all we know, writing sagas about Lei Shen's love affairs could be the mogu equivalent of a soap series!
    Last edited by SanderZammy; 2013-04-30 at 10:08 PM.

  20. #20
    Can I suggest something?
    Lei Shen versus Ra-den. Didn't we best Old Gods and Titanic Watchers too? Ulduar contains a few albet Tyr went walkies so why couldn't Lei Shen do the same to Ra-den, if Ra-Den didn't give in to madness. Several of other titanic watchers like Freya, Hodir, Mimiron have done so, even in quests, dungeons, raids have watchers hanging around, there's like one that doesn't attack us in Un'goro but the rest are more or less bat shit crazy.
    Maybe Lei Shen, convinced Ra-den to lend give his power so that Ra-den could become stone like the other Mogu? I would say it's soul destroying if you've been an almighty being of infallible stuffs to then be turned into squishy bullshit like the very creations below them.

    And killed his Queen, maybe the power-hungry guy just destroyed his Queen then built the Twin Consorts. The name is a little tricky though because a consort would imply that they are actually able to breed... So then would that suggest that the Mogu did breed? Maybe they went Terracota Army. They were fleshlings and procreated and whatnot then when they could abuse the powers to turn back to stone they only zapped men for army, enforcement, etc purposes?

    To be honest, we don't even know how the Pandaren fit in with the timeline to make it... Clearer? Just that well they were at odds and so forth.
    "If there is ever a zombie apocalypse. We're safe, stupid people don't have brains." ~~~ D:

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