Is the European Union Finished?

[Deleted]

buuuh Eu. go Nordic/Scandinavian Union !

I could get behind that. Birds of a feather stick together.

And definately no to European federation... dont work. Maybe in future, but not now.

[Leonora]

Portugal tried to avoid the bailout with all the means it had... But when there are 3 private companies doing direct speculation over the taxes of our debt (which wasn't even near being the worst per capita debt), we had absolutly no chance in avoiding the bailout... That happened only due to speculation...

Reading your reply, it is completely outside your country's 'fault' that you had to accept conditions from EU/IMF/others. Truly not your fault?

Reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econom...ry_of_Portugal they claim that till some 2000 you did a great job overcoming past troubles, but from 2000 onwards your unemployment went skywards and your GDP went behind other EU countries. Add to this the mentioned mismanagement in two of your main banks and useage of EU funds, and your defense seems in contrast with this source.

I agree with your negative opinion on companies like Moody. They have way too much influence on politics. But even if they partly push policies, a large part of what they do is respond to the consequences of your own actions.

[N-7]

You fell for Germany's master plan to take over Europe once again.

You've been had.

heil mein fuhrer Merkel!

[Fuiking]

The Benelux is quite a rich part of Europe, added together, their GDP would be bigger then the UK's/France/Germany GDP.

Benelux in my eyes is obsolete now anyway, I mean, before the common currency it actually did work but now? not so much, not if a sheep in wolves clothing is faulting as badly as greece currently *cough netherlands, cough austerity measures and increased taxes work right? cough*

---------- Post added 2013-05-06 at 05:21 AM ----------

No more than Rhode Island (heavily left) is a puppet of Texas (heavily right). And welcome to the realization that we pro-EU-federation people support member states (in a future hypothetical federation) being stripped of a lot of power. That's obvious from the very definition of federation. For us pro-federation people (or well, for me) taking power away from countries, centralizing it and then utilizing that to force down policies on fucked up areas (such as Greece) is not one bit different from doing the same in one country (for example, using UK centralized power to fix things in Northern Ireland, which is to the UK as Greece is to the EU).

The only reason people object to the idea of EU centralized power is because they know the majority of that power would be in the hands of people or political entities they don't identify with. This, though, isn't true for the US, where you have Rhode Islanders willingly subjecting themselves to a centralized power which is about 50% in the vector they agree with while Rhode Island is probably 90% in that vector.

The reason they let themselves be subjected to that power is because they identify with the rest of the nation. This is the primary reason why I'm for the promotion of a European national identity. It will allow for further centralization, integration, progress and perhaps, eventually, a European superstate.

Netherlands was/is a puppet state I'd reckon, if you see what they give for the size of there economy and population numbers and what they get in turn (France and some other country got 2 years extra to get to the 3%, we have to have it fixed in 2014, which no way is gonna happening, maybe this so called household book is doing fine but on the long run we will default as badly as we did during the Great Depression) then I'd say we be a puppet state.

[Tuor]

Reading your reply, it is completely outside your country's 'fault' that you had to accept conditions from EU/IMF/others. Truly not your fault?

Reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econom...ry_of_Portugal they claim that till some 2000 you did a great job overcoming past troubles, but from 2000 onwards your unemployment went skywards and your GDP went behind other EU countries. Add to this the mentioned mismanagement in two of your main banks and useage of EU funds, and your defense seems in contrast with this source.

I agree with your negative opinion on companies like Moody. They have way too much influence on politics. But even if they partly push policies, a large part of what they do is respond to the consequences of your own actions.

Reading your post its like being daltonic, Black/White, Yes/No, Salt/Sugar...

Did i ever said it wasn't our fault?? No i didn't... The last socialist governement we had has been punished by the people for the misstakes they commited...

The question here is... Could we keep budgeting our economy without a loan with lower debt taxes? Yes we could, because the only reason we were forced to accept the bailout was... The lower debt taxes... So, if it wasn't for speculation, i wouldn't even be here typing this.

[Deleted]

A country with a governement, such as Portugal, with a debt of 90% (back then, curently with the failed austherity measures, and the reduction of our GDP the debt goes on 124%) of its GDP is considered not being able to pay its debt, whille a country without a efective governement (due to internal failled negotiations to form one), such as Belgium, and a debt of 120% of its GDP (this presumes a very hight debt per capita, even considering its very hight purchase power) is considered able to pay its debt...
True, this is a problem


Anyway, Portugal did in FACT, refused by all ways the loan, we were only forced to accept it, because of the lack of critheria... Rating companies such as Moodies and Fitch, reduced our rating based purely on speculation, we only accepted the baillout because we couldn't afford the taxes the markets asked us, which at the time went over 12%...
Resuming, Portugal currently has a debt of 124% of its GDP because of speculation...
To be honest, I said the EU is good, rating agencies are a piece of shit. They speculate on countries depending on what the major countries with stakes there want.


IMF, EU Central Bank and the EU stabilisation Found measures forced my country to become even more Bankrrupt, debt raised from 90% to 124%... And the plan as being implemented just as they asked us to implement it... You can check the avaliations on the internet...
I think the IMF is the one that actually ruins countries. I have done political sciences and know a bit more of what the IMF did along the years since its creating. For example, think it was Argentina, in the 1980-1990s, where they took a loan then the IMF ruined their country and barely recently have they managed to get afloat again (this is also a reason why madam Kirchner talks about the Falklands, she's trying to take the public view off the economy problems). The IMF is a piece of shit, every country contributes to it, but when they want their money back, the IMF imposes horrible conditions that destroy the country more then it helps it. They tried it with my country, since we also took a loan with the crysis. Now they come every few months and every time they found we didn't respect many of the conditions they put, they kind of understood we don't give a shit about their conditions.



I've read in other thread you from Romania, lets get this simple. When Portugal came to the UE, in 1986, we were forced to share our economical resources just like any other EU country, mostly the ones related to the primary sector, to balance this, they financed my country grown, just like they doing currently with yours. The problem is that the EU forced us to abdicate from so many resources that the country grown was not sustained at all.

Back in the 90's Portugal growed above the EU average, new companies came to establish in Portugal, but we lacked the resources to maintain this, because the day my country growed to much, and the expenses with personal went to hight, those same companies went back to their origign countries... Some even to emerging EU countries such as Romania...

Just think this way, have you noticed they are currently using the same model they used in Portugal to force countries such as Romania, Hungary, Estonia and others with an unsustained growth? The day your economical indicators tells them your country no longer needs founds, they will cut them... The problem here is that the only thing that is sustaining those indicators are in fact the founds... That have being just cuted... I seriouly hope this doesn't happen in your country, or in any other, but at this time, its this the EU is doing...

Actually companies that came here have mostly already left, in fact, some of our companies have also left. I am not entirely sure what our economy growth is made of anymore (seriously, I am not sure what my country produces anymore, maybe that's why we're on the plus, we produce nothing, get nothing, only collect the taxes so we're on plus lol).
Also, we suck at absorbing the money from the EU, last time they gave us money, the money that should have been taken until 1st January 2013, we absorbed like 10%/ so yea... We also have corruption and bad politicians, and I, as a romanian, am also to blame for that, as is every romanian. I won't deny this.



Now, lets see the case of Ireland, they only had a massive banking problem, so why did the EU forced them with a full baillout?? Oh yeah, more free money...
In the case of Ireland it was more complicated, they were on the verge of not being able to pay salaries and pensions, kind of like how Greece is now for a while.


If it wasn't for companies such as Moodies and Fitch... No we DIDN'T needed the loan.
Those companies suck, really. There's too much faith put in them worldwide.




Some political parties have tryed to contact all the involved parts in the loan, none of them accepted measures to promote growth, matter of fact after we had cutted more then 40 bilion € they still expect us to cut more 4 bilion

The IMF and the EU is really nasty, believe... .
The IMF is nasty, and here unfortunately the EU doesn't seem to understand this. The fact that many euro-deputees are idiots doesn't help either. Though you were mostly forced to take a loan because you adopted the euro, and probably the major countries feared that if you fall (you might have not), it would have taken the euro to hell, with Greece they barely stopped it, they feared that would happen to you. This has to do with the fact more that the euro zone was implemented too fast when countries weren't doing similar in economical power.



It was just a plain example of how much more work the EU needs to become a country. A good start, would be giving equitative oportunities to everyone, meaning those oportunities social, economical, political... There is still so much work to do...
True.

A good example, a recent example, would be the deportation of the romanian Gypsys from France... I still don't understand how France managed to deport EU citezens from their territory.
They payed them 100 euros each to leave. The gypsies came here, spent the euros, then went back to France... maybe that's why our economy is growing, free money from France!


What i tried to say, was that every time someone becomes a power, and inside the EU both Germany and France area powers, France even sustains the Strasburg parliament lobby (a useless european parliament wich old a plenary event per month), those powers always try to do something weird, like not allowing EU members to have excess production in the primary sectors, whille they both still have it...
This is one of the three major problems of the EU:
1. Economical difference between countries.
2. Not enough transparency to the people.
3. Some countries are stronger then others in terms of decision making.
With this I agree. If the EU is ever going to be a federation, all 3 need to be resolved, I think for third a system similar to USA where countries get ... think they got senators depending on size of state and deputees depending on population number? Am I right? Anyway, think something like that might work

I'll put my responses in bold inside the quote.

[Sevyvia]

No more than Rhode Island (heavily left) is a puppet of Texas (heavily right). And welcome to the realization that we pro-EU-federation people support member states (in a future hypothetical federation) being stripped of a lot of power. That's obvious from the very definition of federation. For us pro-federation people (or well, for me) taking power away from countries, centralizing it and then utilizing that to force down policies on fucked up areas (such as Greece) is not one bit different from doing the same in one country (for example, using UK centralized power to fix things in Northern Ireland, which is to the UK as Greece is to the EU).

The only reason people object to the idea of EU centralized power is because they know the majority of that power would be in the hands of people or political entities they don't identify with. This, though, isn't true for the US, where you have Rhode Islanders willingly subjecting themselves to a centralized power which is about 50% in the vector they agree with while Rhode Island is probably 90% in that vector.

The reason they let themselves be subjected to that power is because they identify with the rest of the nation. This is the primary reason why I'm for the promotion of a European national identity. It will allow for further centralization, integration, progress and perhaps, eventually, a European superstate.

So, basically, you support a Europe-wide dictatorship. That's quite chilling, especially that you genuinely seem to believe that it's okay for someone out of touch but in power to force their views down upon people and countries. Just taking a wild guess, here, but are you far left politically?

It's like every time I read or hear something from someone pro-EU, I get more reasons to be against it.

Get me my damn Kalmar union back!

[Deleted]

I hope not. I hate borders and its traveling regulations. Country borders are so outdated in our time. It's like children trying to hold their own sandbox.

[Deleted]

We don't need the EU. European countries will continue to trade with each other, it's not going to cause a war, and if we want to deport a terrorist to his home country then WE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO.

Simples.

[Numeanor]

The Euro is such a mess of a currency anyway, by shackling all of these countries together economically one countries market failure just burdens everyone else. The EU should be abolished and the countries with struggling economies should work on getting their act together, cut back the insane amounts of welfare, and have their citizens go out and work.

Work where? Masturbating? Serisously?

Where will you work, when 80% of companies closes doors? Where? Smarty pants...

I just HATE when people are writing about something they have ZERO clue about.
Shitting with full ass is easy, same as spending money that isn't yours. Grow up and get on real floor.

[Zarc]

We don't need the EU. European countries will continue to trade with each other, it's not going to cause a war, and if we want to deport a terrorist to his home country then WE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO.

Simples.

Having worked as a software developer at the European subsidiary of an international corporation I strongly disagree. We need more of the EU, not less! Despite this "common market" we still had to adjust the system for each and every country to comply with different the taxing and accounting rules in each. What an unnecessary waste of my time and the corporation's investment in Europe. Better we complete the common market and compromise a common set of rules for the whole continent, rather than having these small areas have all kinds of different rules and regulations. Let the nations be states in a European federation in order to preserve the individual culture and language of each European nation, but for God sake, let us harmonize the labor and business practices!

[Leonora]

Reading your post its like being daltonic, Black/White, Yes/No, Salt/Sugar...

I dont think my argument is like that at all, nor did you (imo) truly acknowledge true personal responsibility. I wish you well salvaging your country. Despite this interaction I truly hope you make it.

[Jackmoves]

EU will be around, there are issues with how it's setup up and we could do with some reforms but the general idea behind it is good.
I don't want a federation but there are many areas where deepened cooperation will be beneficial, crime prevention and exchange of intelligence for example. I think the way the Euro got implemented was a mistake though.

"många bäckar små"(read: many small streams coming together makes for one strong powerful river).

[Wikiy]

So, basically, you support a Europe-wide dictatorship.

No, I support the idea of a future federation where states would willingly subject themselves to a centralized power even if the majority of citizens of a given state don't fully agree with the policies of the centralized power. This is the definition of a federation. The US, Germany and Austria, just as a few examples of federations, are NO different than my future view of Europe. If you'd consider that a dictatorship, just go ahead and do that, but don't pretend you're not a hypocrite, since I don't see you being horrified by the American, German and Austrian dictatorships.

It's like every time I read or hear something from someone pro-EU, I get more reasons to be against it.

Don't worry, I feel the same about anti-EU people.

[Deleted]

If the EU is a dictatorship then why are they allowing Mr Cameron to hold a referendum on whether the UK should leave or not?

[muwatallis]

It will not. Europe has seen the shittiest of the shittiest in the history of world and yet it lives on.

[Ravenblade]

[...]
but still the issue is brought up not so much by the events of WW2 themselves as from Germany's stance towards Greece today
i honestly believe that if they went softer on Greece it would be in their own longterm interest too
Bringing up subjects like reperations is only natural,if the 2 countries relationships were better such things would have been left in the past

I disagree it being "natural" maybe for populists and tabloid papers,yes,but not for pragmatic minds. As a politician you should be more professional and have pragmatism determining the course instead of plain resentments.
It was a quick exit idea which they pursued but they also forgot that Germany would probably have no problems paying €200bn. reparations and be done with it.
Which also would have meant an end to all bailouts and thus the EU countries could have demanded all the bailouts back in an instant with banks also forgetting about anything said about haircuts. So rejecting the whole thing from German side was a pragmatic thing to do within Greece's interest - something which Greek politicians don't seem to have in mind at times.

In short: Politicized resentments won't solve a crisis.

ps: and yes i think i have the big picture of the German elections, tbh i was hoping things might be better with socialodemocrats in head of the coaliation,no basis here just hope.

The chance is low that socialdemocrats will have a leading role in anything here as long as the current government does not screw up. People still remember what the socialdemocrats did with their Agenda 2010.

how are we supposed to compete with countries whos competitive advantage is extremely low salaries without making our own low too?
some tarrifs at least are needed if EU economy is to stabilise,otherwise the South has no real chance at export and the North is doom not to find buyers for it;s products

Germany has no minimum wage policy and has had a very low increase in wages over the years in order to stay competitive. An estimated 25% of the working population at least is working at 1 €/hr. basis contributing to the low unemployment we've had which also correlates to the increased size of the service sector over the years.

I am certainly in favour of a minimum wage policy given we could afford that but you know the renewed debate about it is very young and filled with hypocrisy from all parties due to it being the election year. However I would not trust on it solving your problems. In fact the problem is that a lot of the Southern countries export food. 12% of Greece's share goes to Germany and it's mostly food.
I think the problem is not that you can't compete price-wise but that some Southern countries always had a negative trade balance due to the nature of their economy. If you had a strong domestic industrial sector allowing some level of self-sufficiency it would be no problem and in times of crisis that negative balance is going to hurt even if we had wage equality everywhere. The key is to get companies to invest and apparently for a manufacturing company it would not be the worst place to look for as long as there is some political stability.

as for the reperations issue personally i would prefer to drop it alltogether as long as EU becomes more hospitable to the Southern countries
currently with unemployment on youth specifically at about 40% things are dire...we need an alternative to austerity and as long as Germany is pushing that way it's extremely diffucult to go another way(so far ever since we first started applying the measures that would 'fix' our economy unemployment increased and reccesion is obvious(you take a walk at the street and the shops you knew for years are all closing because they can't afford the rent-that obvious...)

The reparation issue is outdated because times have changed and so has the global economical landscape. The global market would react to that and most likely not in a kind manner. Also having grown up in the East I know that we paid dearly for the defeat and the Russians bled us dry. We paid our reparations in full to the Russians at least. We got no equivalent of a Marshall plan and only by pure determination and modesty they literally rose from ruins (which virtually is why the DDR hymn was Auferstanden aus Ruinen). Now imagine the same generation is getting asked to pay again in addition to current bailouts - I can already see what is happening, something I'd rather not want to see happening. I thought we have learned our lesson from the Versailles treaty.

As for austerity and being harsh - I can relate to the conditions at least post-reunification with deserted industrial zones, rampant unemployment and crime and dilapidating buildings. I'd rather have the austerity plans gone as well but realistically giving more time is going to happen instead. Going back however we can see this is basically just the result of a policy which was going to lead to economical implosion eventually. A lot people with insight knew that. In fact a Greek friend of mine told me in 2008 that he literally waited for the whole thing to implode long before there were talks about a Euro crisis when everything seemed to be fine in Greece blaming the rampant corruption, abuse of EU subsidies and tax evasion. Consider that everything you are doing for the first time ever is going to be imperfect and each case has its individual characteristics so you can't just create a blueprint for solving a self-inflicted crisis. In politics iteration is also a very slow process and much more complicated. They probably can afford some wiggle room but even if they are going to give you the maximum of wiggle room possible you may still have to face some time until things will look better again.

[Deleted]

We don't need the EU. European countries will continue to trade with each other, it's not going to cause a war, and if we want to deport a terrorist to his home country then WE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO.

Simples.

The problem isn't the economy within Europe itself, it's power to force action upon others. As a bunch of separated countries they can never force something on China or the US. But together as one economical block (or political block, EU) they can. That's the importance of the future with the growing globalization.

In order for Europe to prosper, we must unite so we can compete with big markets like the US or China, or maybe Brazil or India in the future. Divided we will become a second rate economic area.