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  1. #1

    Why do people even vote Democrats/Socialists?

    I am not equating Democrats with Socialists - but I thought I would put the left parties of both the US (Democrats) and Europe (Socialists).

    Now don't get me wrong - I don't make a ton of money, own stock options or any kind of property. I am currently a Restaurant Manager at one of the most successful fast food chains, and got there actually having started as a crew member. I am grossly overqualified for the position given my education, but I still treat it with respect, and the company that offered me my job with gratefulness.

    I have never been bitter towards people richer or more successful than I. I don't get people attacking others with better work and more pay. Nor do I understand by what logic someone who earns more should pay a higher percentage of his wages as taxes. If both the person making 50,000 a year and the person making 1 million pay a 25% income tax, the person that earns a million still pays 20 times more taxes. What kind of warped logic is it when the person that earns the million is forced to pay 40%?

    I also do not get social programs that countries cannot afford anymore. I mean... States are now staring at the abyss because they refuse to cut back programs they can no longer pay for. My wife and I receive 180 euros per child (we have two). But why? If you cannot pay for your children, why should others do it for you? Why should others be taxed so that you can make children? Never mind that some categories of people (the poorest and least educated) see those 180 euros as a significant sum and will therefore reproduce in order to get the money. Is that really desirable?

    I am for things like universal health care (obviously paid from your wages), education (with free primary and secondary, and then the option to either take a vocational and professional path or a universitary one) and a VERY limited (in time) form of unemployment benefits. I am also for some forms of important services (postal services/train transit/transport infrastructure) remaining in the hands of the state. My logic here is that small villages that lose their train station and post office/bank simply die out. The state should also have a monopoly of violence and law enforcement (police/the military).

    But that's it. All other programs are superfluous. Long term unemployment benefits are poison. Look at Belgium and its unemployment rate. You should have six months of unemployment benefits. And that's it. After you either start digging in your savings or pick another job. And believe me, working in the industry I work in, we have a LOT of free positions. But people would rather not work and get a bit less instead of working, paying taxes, and doing their part. And they can do that because our states are stupid enough to hand them money. It's not that there are no jobs available - there are tons of crappy jobs out there ripe for the taking. Just the people turn up their nose at them.

    Even at the state level I am baffled. I live in a federal republic; the town in which I live is one of the few to still be completely debt free. In fact, they had some money stashed away, and therefore we had free parking (instead of paying 1 euro per hour like neighboring towns). Now they have run out of money, and have had to start charging 50 cents per hour. I have to bring my cut greenery to the special trash in my car - they don't collect. You need to clean your part of the pavement in front of your home yourself (and will get fined only if you fail to). It all makes sense to me.

    And then I turn around and look at the towns close. Hugely indebted, and still taking on more debts. Politicians freely promising things they cannot pay. And people irresponsible enough to vote for them. Obviously always the "poor people" voting for the Socialists. Let the "rich" pay. Not understanding that the rich slowly but surely move away, until the tax base is so depleted that entire cities turn to shit. Look at Duisburg or Charleroi.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    The more assets one has in one's name, the bigger the tax evasion and tax avoidance loopholes they can utilize become. That's one of the primary reasons a larger tax bracket is needed. The other is that the costs of living are a larger burden for those who make less, and that the ability to afford a second yacht is valued as lesser importance than food or shelter for someone barely making ends meet.

    The wealth also have an inherent power and influence over how tax dollars are spent in the first place. Speaking for the US at least, more tax dollars are spent on properties of wealth than lesser areas by multiple landslides. This is just one of many examples of wealth monopolizing where tax money is spent, I won't derail with long lists. Alongside with wealth is more time to spend fighting for things one values. The poor usually also work directly for the rich, and are usually right under their thumb, able to be metaphorically "squished" if they become too much of a burden (such as companies trying to scare employees that they might be fired if Obama wins an election, or other similar abuses documented over the years).

    For the most part, your stances are reasonable on paper. But when you have such one-sided power like the US is under right now, where the wealthy have allowed basic things such as public education lay on the table just so they can use those tax dollars for personal use instead, the rhetoric becomes more violent on both sides.

    On one side there really isn't enough money to support what our budgets have planned. So you get honest right-wing advocates who don't want to see the entire state crumble by the collapsing budget.

    On the other side is politicians, lobbyists, and the powers that be who have used so much of the tax dollars for personal or corporate matters (and still continue to do so) that states are being squeezed like sponges for every last penny these parasites can consume. Even if social programs were cut, that money would be squandered on these people anyway. Under what once was capitalism will start to look alot more like mercantilism (on a much large long-term macro scale, of course). The poorer that the poor become, the more valuable the wealth of the rich becomes. And the more they can hold over everyone else's heads in terms of leverage and power.

    And its assumed that no politician means a dime of what they say. Everything's been bought and sold long ago, and the best part of allowing us to argue with each other like this is that is distracts us from coming up with any feasible solution to the debt, budget, corruption, etc until so much has been sucked from this country into private accounts that saving ourselves from it all will just be a joke.

    Democrats are barely a solution, and mostly are just as indebted and sold off to companies as any Republican, but there have been attempts (albeit few) at useful sane tax-reform on the Democratic side. That same thing can't be said of the right-wing, they just want to leave the poor more desperate and more in-debted to the rich.
    Last edited by SaltLakeAtrocity; 2013-05-06 at 07:19 AM.
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  3. #3
    The money thing is easy enough to understand. I do not hate the rich. I hate the greedy. There is a difference.

    Here's the thing. If a person makes 20k a year (which a lot of people are nowadays, even less), he or she is probably struggling to keep everything going. Food, housing, gas, clothes, school, utilities...all these things add up. A person making 2 million a year is not struggling. You could take away more than half of their money, and they could still live incredibly comfortably.

    The nation needs taxes. Taxes go to pay for upkeep of roads and bridges, police, fire...all those things we take for granted. The "poor" are many, and our tiny contributions help out, but if the "rich" pay the same percent, something happens. There aren't enough taxes to take care of everything. Helpful programs get held back or eliminated. There is less money to help create new jobs. Because the "rich" don't do their part, we actually lose jobs. Wages go down for the lower-tier jobs, and many jobs are lost. Those low-tier jobs are still necessary, though, and people have to work them. But with the meager amount of money they make, they can't afford to spend often, and spending is what helps our economy grow.

    This is silly, you say. Obviously, the very wealthy will take care of that. They have all this money to spend, they will surely spend their way into a great economy! This has been the Republican line for a while. Except it doesn't work that way. Many of the "rich" hoard their money. They hold onto as much of it as they can, and then pass it on to their children, tax-free. Also, consider. Let's say there's a poor family of 4 and a rich family of 4. The poor family has to eat, but due to their low income, they have to survive on cheap foods, and small portions. The rich family can fully expect to eat 3 solid meals a day. If the poor families are allowed to keep more of their money, they can buy things like clothes, they can eat out every so often, they can spend good money on gifts at Christmas. The rich do not buy more than they need, just because they have so much more money, and that money essentially just goes to waste, not helping the economy or the country. The poor would keep the money in circulation.

    I don't hate the rich. But the rich need to understand that they need to do their part, as well. Because these small jobs, with small pay, and no benefits...these jobs are still necessary. But they are barely enough to support ourselves, and are certainly not enough to support our economy.

    The only thing I do agree with is the fact that there are people who just want to get a check and not work. We see that and hear about it (mostly hear about it) every day. There ARE people like that. But to think that all Democrats are lazy, shiftless thieves that have no ambition or desire to be self-reliant is like us thinking all Republicans are racist, homophobic money-grubbers. There are extremes on both sides. But, of course, both sides are also going to pick and choose the people they want to represent the "other" side.
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  4. #4
    Bloodsail Admiral Rickmagnus's Avatar
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    So OP, what programs exactly do you think should be cut? Other than unemployment benefits which you've already mentioned.
    "I don't believe in an afterlife, so I don't have to spend my whole life fearing hell, or fearing heaven even more. For whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse."
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  5. #5
    The Patient Unalorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyduke View Post
    My wife and I receive 180 euros per child (we have two). But why?
    You do realize that an aging population is really bad business for any government right? I.e., a population that have too many old people living from retirement plans and very few people at working age paying taxes that will actually pay for those retirement plans. So as you can see there is a logic in the government giving an incentive to people to reproduce.

    What you see as "donation", government see as "investment". The child of today is the tax payer of tomorrow. Is not like the money is wasted.

  6. #6
    Because I don't hate gay people, women, immigrants and so on.

    Period.

    Was that too short?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    If anybody is thinking of buying me a gift I would much rather they just donate that money to charity instead.
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  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral Rickmagnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    Because I don't hate gay people, women, immigrants and so on.

    Period.

    Was that too short?
    Forgot poor people and minorities.
    "I don't believe in an afterlife, so I don't have to spend my whole life fearing hell, or fearing heaven even more. For whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse."
    “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” - Issac Asimov

  8. #8
    I forgot you had to be bitter and resentful towards rich people to oppose the republican party.


    Which party is socialist?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Rickmagnus View Post
    Forgot poor people and minorities.
    I said, "and so on" :0
    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    If anybody is thinking of buying me a gift I would much rather they just donate that money to charity instead.
    chicken kiev

  10. #10
    I vote to the left because I staunchly oppose the moral / social conservative views. Politicians put their hand on the Bible and swore to uphold the Constitution. They did not put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible.
    Last edited by Warwithin; 2013-05-06 at 07:40 AM.

  11. #11
    Always find it humorous when the uninformed don't realize that the US Democrat party are moderates slightly right of center. This is stuff you should have learned in school.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by glo View Post
    Always find it humorous when the uninformed don't realize that the US Democrat party are moderates slightly right of center. This is stuff you should have learned in school.
    But muh freedumbs.

  13. #13
    Bloodsail Admiral Rickmagnus's Avatar
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    Lets face it though, the days of the moderate conservative have largely gone out the window. Also the fact that politics has largely become a game of who's the least douchey of the 2/3/4..ect.
    "I don't believe in an afterlife, so I don't have to spend my whole life fearing hell, or fearing heaven even more. For whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse."
    “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” - Issac Asimov

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyduke View Post
    Europe (Socialists).
    And there I realized that the OP is an American and have the education of a normal European 11 year old.
    Dident read any further.

    And I still don't understand why people bash a system that is based on the idea that we humans shall all help eachother to live a good life.

  15. #15
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    I think you hit every FOX talking point, gratz!

    The problem is conservative thinking has been one fail after another. Just look at the recent Austerity and H9 Visa lies we have had to deal with. Just this week, two more undergrads found even more errors in the paper used to justify the conservatives Austerity. And those poor CEO’s screaming for more H9 Visa’s because they can’t find any qualified Americans to fill the jobs. Another scientific paper shaws a complete lie again. The problem is they don’t believe in the free market and refuse to pay what the free market says Americans should get. So they want government welfare for their corporations.

    FACT, the stimulus was way too small. FACT, paying welfare, unemployment to workers stimulates the economy. Fact, rebuilding infrastructure stimulates the economy. FACT, regulation improves and stabilizes the economy. FACT, raising taxes on the rich has no negative impact on the economy. Notice conservatives have been against each of these.

    Let’s look at what conservatives have done. FACT, Trickle down economics FAILED. The fix to Medicare, Medicare part D FAILED. Deregulating the Banks another Failure. Privatizing the US military, FAILED. No child left behind and voucher/privatizing schools FAILED. Privatizing Healthcare EPIC FAILURE.
    Let me simplify. Two people own a house. Both get laid off and both their cars break down.

    The conservative way out: cut back on everything! Turn off the phone, the electricity, stop buying food. Hope they can find work in walking distance. Since they have no money, the house it foreclosed on, cars repossessed and they lose everything. On the plus side they lose weight.

    Everyone with more than 2 brain cells way out: They take out a loan, get the cars fixed. Since they have cars they can find jobs far away. Find better jobs. Pay off the out of work loan and swear never to work for a conservative who is so incompetent they thought laying dedicated employees off was a good thing for their business and can’t believe the less than minimum wage replacements they hired are not dedicated or competent enough to do the job.

    So, there are zero redeeming qualities to elect ANY conservative to government. And the question is, with the conservatives track record why would any American vote for them?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Senjinone View Post
    And there I realized that the OP is an American and have the education of a normal European 11 year old.
    Dident read any further.

    And I still don't understand why people bash a system that is based on the idea that we humans shall all help eachother to live a good life.
    Socialism is glorious on paper, notoriously tricky to work on a macro scale, i.e., a nation.

    Capitalism is also pretty good on paper, but again, messy in real life.

    Benefits and drawbacks to any system have to be weighed against the needs of the times.

    More on-topic: I do tend to vote for the left, even though I don't fully agree with some of their fiscal policy. However, I agree with them more than the "slash everything but the military, let's ratchet that sucker up bigger!" Republicans. Even the military knows it's fucking stupid how much we spend on them.

    I also agree much more with the typical Democratic social policy rather than the Republican one.

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  17. #17
    The Insane Bakis's Avatar
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    Safer, healthier, live longer, less crime, less poor, better education, less religion dictating life, less war. I can go on forever why I would ha a hard time living in the US regardless of party in power.
    Also US democrats are ultra rightwing if compared to the rest of the world, they are hardly even comparable with Europe socialists.
    I would however pick living in the US over the former CCCP countries.

    I'm not a selfish prick so I guess I dont mind a higher taxetion in order to help people I never met and never will.
    If we can afford helping others why shouldn't we.
    Last edited by Bakis; 2013-05-06 at 07:51 AM.
    Russia isn't afraid of US dude. That's why they are sending their bombers like 60km out of your shores. Infact they give 0 fucks. They know you wont dare to touch them.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Senjinone View Post
    And there I realized that the OP is an American and have the education of a normal European 11 year old.
    Dident read any further.

    And I still don't understand why people bash a system that is based on the idea that we humans shall all help eachother to live a good life.
    An American is unlikely to receive money from the government in the form of Euros. Probably best to read the post before making your clever "stopped reading" comments, eh?

  19. #19
    The Patient Ladey Gags's Avatar
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    I refuse to vote for the party that has been taken over by religious fanatics. It's one thing to be religious and in the government, it's another thing to use your religion as a way of governing. That's social conservatism in a nutshell.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    An American is unlikely to receive money from the government in the form of Euros. Probably best to read the post before making your clever "stopped reading" comments, eh?
    Maybe he's paid in European women and refers to them as euros.

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