4th raid difficulty, Easy Mode, should it happen?

[Glorious Leader]

There is a large difficulty hole between LFR and the current tuning of normal mode.

It feels like this is something the developers are gonna have to talk about because for some bizarre and stupid reason I will never understand their is a large degree of resistance to even this basic understanding.

[jax]

These are all normal modes. You seriously just don't stand in whatever color damage they put on the ground.

Its a bit more than that.

I am in 2 guilds a 25 on weekdays and a 10 man on weekends. In both we cleared FL and DS normal modes the first week and finished heroics before the nerfs. So I would say we are a well above average raid team in both guilds.The 10 man has the exact same roster we had back then (very close knit group of friends) and the 25 man has 5 new raiders from the Cata days.

The 10 man is 1/13 heroic and took 5 weeks to clear normal content
The 25 man is 2/13 and took 4 weeks to clear normal content.

The content is markedly harder in normals and heroics than it used to be... or did we just forget how to play all of the sudden? lol

It feels like this is something the developers are gonna have to talk about because for some bizarre and stupid reason I will never understand their is a large degree of resistance to even this basic understanding.

This 100 times...

But since we are all bags of trash and leaches its best to ignore the facts and have us all quit so the game can go f2p... lulz... stupid is as stupid says.

[anaxie]

I will openly admit Horridon N/H was a bit of an early toughy. Just develope a better strat and move faster. Not much of an issue.

[Deleted]

There is a large difficulty hole between LFR and the current tuning of normal mode.

A hole which is filled by previous tier raids on normal mode. Cataclysm has unfortunately implemented the mindset that the current raiding tier is the only tier you should be doing in terms of progression, gelling as a team, and gearing up.

[Glorious Leader]

A hole which is filled by previous tier raids on normal mode. Cataclysm has unfortunately implemented the mindset that the current raiding tier is the only tier you should be doing in terms of progression, gelling as a team, and gearing up.

I hope they learned you can't take something away from players once you've given it to them. Otherwise well good bye normal raiding.

[Odina]

Its a bit more than that.

I am in 2 guilds a 25 on weekdays and a 10 man on weekends. In both we cleared FL and DS normal modes the first week and finished heroics before the nerfs. So I would say we are a well above average raid team in both guilds.The 10 man has the exact same roster we had back then (very close knit group of friends) and the 25 man has 5 new raiders from the Cata days.

The 10 man is 1/13 heroic and took 5 weeks to clear normal content
The 25 man is 2/13 and took 4 weeks to clear normal content.

The content is markedly harder in normals and heroics than it used to be... or did we just forget how to play all of the sudden? lol



This 100 times...

But since we are all bags of trash and leaches its best to ignore the facts and have us all quit so the game can go f2p... lulz... stupid is as stupid says.

That depends what is your guilds strengh vs weakness? Are you really good at healing or dps and tend to be able to brute force most encountres or or you more in line with a mechanical guild that strugles with dps checks?

our guild had a hard time with Elegon and garalon due to the dps checks... fast forward to this tier and we are in my opinion blowing past allof of the raid on a 4 hour raid week because we are better at the mechanical parts > just throwing dps and healign through mechanics untill shit dies!

This raiding tier is a huge challenge for brute force groups... it's not harder just the focus is on another part of the raid game > dps / hps!



Side note: Comparing WOTLK and cata bosses to current raid tiers with all the tools all the classes got now and the removal of hybrid tax is a joke tbh becuase you never had the same capabilities as we do now in the past to countre mechanics!

[Glorious Leader]

That depends what is your guilds strengh vs weakness? Are you really good at healing or dps and tend to be able to brute force most encountres or or you more in line with a mechanical guild that strugles with dps checks?

our guild had a hard time with Elegon and garalon due to the dps checks... fast forward to this tier and we are in my opinion blowing past allof of the raid on a 4 hour raid week because we are better at the mechanical parts > just throwing dps and healign through mechanics untill shit dies!

This raiding tier is a huge challenge for brute force groups... it's not harder just the focus is on another part of the raid game > dps / hps!



Side note: Comparing WOTLK and cata bosses to current raid tiers with all the tools all the classes got now and the removal of hybrid tax is a joke tbh becuase you never had the same capabilities as we do now in the past to countre mechanics!

And you don't think in that little side note the developers have anticpated all those tools and lack of hybrid tax and have obviously stepped up the difficulty? Of course they have. Well they didn't figure out that those tools and the hybrid tax probably doesn't mean all that much to the average raider who struggles for a whole host of other reasons.

[hablix]

You mean Karazhan while players were doing Sunwell?

Why don't you go try Karazhan at current launch tier. You will shit your pants and beg for ToT Normal.

Yes I realize Karazhan, like every BC raid, was an overtuned mess at launch. I was there. But it got nerfed hard early on, just as the gear it dropped was buffed, and it was being farmed by average guilds long before Sunwell.

Now what about the Naxx WotLK example?

[Osmeric]

A hole which is filled by previous tier raids on normal mode. Cataclysm has unfortunately implemented the mindset that the current raiding tier is the only tier you should be doing in terms of progression, gelling as a team, and gearing up.

Asking a guild to do the previous tier doesn't work, especially when that tier is giving worse gear than current LFR.

It didn't work in T11, it didn't work in Wrath, it didn't really work in BC. And yet here they were, trotting that out again. I wanted to go "But Ghostwinkle, that trick never works!"

[hablix]

Sounds like a total waste of time for the developers. LFR is seriously easy enough.

Missing the point entirely. The question is how to move the game away from LFR and back towards guild-based raiding.

[Deleted]

Asking a guild to do the previous tier doesn't work, especially when that tier is giving worse gear than current LFR.

It didn't work in T11, it didn't work in Wrath, it didn't really work in BC. And yet here they were, trotting that out again. I wanted to go "But Ghostwinkle, that trick never works!"

Who said it was just about gear? Indeed Blizzard made a mistake placing LFR ToT gear at a higher ilvl than normal mode T14 gear, which in turns makes players feel like they have to do LFR on top of T14 raids to get the gear required for normal ToT. That said T14 provides tier set bonuses and sha-touched weapons, bonuses which do help in the progression of early normal ToT bosses.

But especially in the case of newer guilds with newer players who haven't raided together for a long period of time, progressing in T14 raids first helps a hell of a lot in terms of working as a team and getting to know how your raid works as a whole, what improvements could be made, etc.

Unfortunately too many guilds who didn't even manage to clear Mogu'shan Vaults think that now that T14 is no longer current content, then can skip straight ahead to Throne of Thunder, and doing a little bit of LFR will help get them though it.

[chibichibiko]

It's been said already that adding determination to normal mode could be an option, and people are claiming that casual guilds will faceroll normal then. They can't. Determination might give groups edges, but it takes time. You're looking at maybe a half hour of wipes to get 10 stacks if you're extremely efficient at getting them. Beer League guilds tend to only raid 3-6 hours per week. But it's also a lot harder to get those guilds together on after-farm nights if all they feel like they'll do is wipe, and there's little hope in pugging someone for progression work on a boss on many servers.
Determination, if you couple it with a penalty such as 'there's no Thunderforged drops when determination is used', becomes an intelligent choice the guild can make and of all these suggestions in this thread is the most likely because it requires the least amount of developer work.

[Deleted]

People pug Thunderking on my server, Dreanor EU, so no.

[spaace]

If normal mode is too hard.. learn to play and stop ruining the damn raiding experience for everyone.
Raiding is "Supposed" to be hard.. you're killing a fucking boss.. not trash mobs.

AFK in LFR? Good for you. I hope your RL karma is just as shitty.



Obviously you didn't raid tbc.

Karazhan was NOT overtuned. SSC/TK were.
You actually had to FARM heroics, and FARM early bosses (like most TBC raids) in order to get gear, and progress.... You know, like how it should be. (HMM.. SOUNDS A LOT LIKE THE START OF THIS XPAC RIGHT!?!?)

Now people just whine, cry, and wait for LFR to be handed the gear they were supposed to farm for.


Just because you're a shitty player, who refuses to actually take the raiding scene seriously (like a LOT of players), doesn't mean that it is too hard or broken.

[Glorious Leader]

It's been said already that adding determination to normal mode could be an option, and people are claiming that casual guilds will faceroll normal then. They can't. Determination might give groups edges, but it takes time. You're looking at maybe a half hour of wipes to get 10 stacks if you're extremely efficient at getting them. Beer League guilds tend to only raid 3-6 hours per week. But it's also a lot harder to get those guilds together on after-farm nights if all they feel like they'll do is wipe, and there's little hope in pugging someone for progression work on a boss on many servers.
Determination, if you couple it with a penalty such as 'there's no Thunderforged drops when determination is used', becomes an intelligent choice the guild can make and of all these suggestions in this thread is the most likely because it requires the least amount of developer work.

It's not like thunderforged drops on 10 mans anyway lol

[Osmeric]

Who said it was just about gear?

Gear is why it doesn't work. Doing the old content isn't rewarding enough, even with the nerfs.

I will add that being told to do old content is insulting and demeaning. It's basically the game saying "go do this, because you suck!" While that may be true, no one wants to hear it. The value proposition of an MMO is to inflate the ego, usually falsely, and anything that breaks that (multiple raid tiers, PvP ratings, for example) breaks the game.

[melodramocracy]

Just go back to 1 version, and implement Monster Power ala D3. Raid leader picks the power, and the loot drop / rare item drop is increased or decreased accordingly. Make one or 2 extra bosses require having done the previous ones on MP5 or above, maybe have one bonus boss require MP10 completion for all prior, and boom..... Something for all skill levels. And the tier will stay relevant longer.

Next problem?

[chibichibiko]

It's not like thunderforged drops on 10 mans anyway lol

10% is still something. It'd probably need to be more like 25% to begin with to be a useful incentive.

[babo7000]

If normal mode is too hard.. learn to play and stop ruining the damn raiding experience for everyone.
Raiding is "Supposed" to be hard.. you're killing a fucking boss.. not trash mobs.

AFK in LFR? Good for you. I hope your RL karma is just as shitty.



Obviously you didn't raid tbc.

Karazhan was NOT overtuned. SSC/TK were.
You actually had to FARM heroics, and FARM early bosses (like most TBC raids) in order to get gear, and progress.... You know, like how it should be. (HMM.. SOUNDS A LOT LIKE THE START OF THIS XPAC RIGHT!?!?)

Now people just whine, cry, and wait for LFR to be handed the gear they were supposed to farm for.


Just because you're a shitty player, who refuses to actually take the raiding scene seriously (like a LOT of players), doesn't mean that it is too hard or broken.

I actually see myself as a pretty good player,almost always top 3 in dps and do things in IFR that are unneeded but help (demo banner for ex), but i dont have the time commit to a raid. My play times are sporadic, and i dont like basing my life around a game. So im stuck with piss easy IFR, or to wait.for shit to.be nerfed?

Making a pug with the current instance (ToT) could take an hour or two, as not many people pug, than clearing the place, or at leasts killing a few bpsses, takes even longer. On average, im looking at 3 hours invested to reach the Troll Council; You can guess how little people would be willing to invest so much time for so little reward.

You bring up BC, i bring up WotLK, the most successfull expansion. Naxx, Uld,ToC,ICC, all pugged frequently when relevent. Than they took that away from us in Cata, and subs/casual playerbase dropped.

If your against this because you think its as simpls as people can either get better or quit, than you are incredibly ignorant. If they all quit, great, you now have a game with MAYBE barely 2m subs. Enjoy your content then!

[Korru]

We should have a derp mode, every mob in the game has 1 HP.