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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post
    So if his parses don't matter (let's ignore scumbag dps possibilities here as we have no logs), then what does? His statement of his rotation? People can know something really well and fail to execute it properly. Happens in raiding all the time (and in professional sports, performance arts, etc). So then what is the measure of a "good" player?

    IMO, if he parses well without scumbag DPS, then it does absolutely mean something. Ignoring reality (being a top DPS in an 8/13 H top 360-ish guild) for a theoretical (what his rotation "should" be) doesn't seem like an effective way to evaluate players as a RL.

    Frankly, I suspect a lot more bosses would die if most players turned off their recounts and spent more time fixing their positioning, coordination, and communication skills than spending hours talking/theorcrafting a 1-2% DPS difference.
    This isn't really about any theoretical dps gain, it's a gain for doing nothing. He might as well not be using a flask or something, because it's completely free dps.

    This also isn't about picking a fight with a raider. If I had to approach one of my raiders about something they could do in their rotation that would give them free dps, I'd just do it. I'd be friendly about it. I'd just put it out on the table, 'hey, here's this thing you can do that is definitely totally free dps and doesn't even require you to change your rotation (remember, you just replace glaive toss with arcane shot whenever it's up, super easy). You should do this thing because we all love killing bosses and killing bosses is cool.' BAM. No fight picked, argument made, free DPS gained.

    Being a raid leader is also about being very diplomatic with your raiders and knowing how to get them to perform better. You're focusing way too hard on the babysitting aspect of it. Raid leading should only be like babysitting if your raiders are babies. And hey, sometimes they are, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that this guy is perhaps mature enough that if approached in a proper and friendly manner he won't flip a table and throw a temper tantrum.

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  2. #42
    The Patient CrenVerdis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    I've thought about this before I posted, but here is my views, opinions and theory crafting on the situation.

    1. A breaking point regarding haste.
    (...)
    3. Arcane Shot procs the 4 piece.
    Regarding haste and arcane shot/4p t15 I derp'd hard on this first draft I think. I was modelling rppm wrong in my mind which lead to utter confusion right now on my end. Now I am the one dealing with misinformation, huh. (I thought haste affected rppm directly. Misinformation based on my reroll to a tank for raiding purposes )
    Then we can throw scaling with mastery out of the window, too I think. I don't see haste and crit rating capped in such a way, that mastery will be that meaningful that AS surpasses GT especially if you consider cleave damage.

    Regarding the discussion of RL pushing players:
    This pushing to be the very best like no one ever was should be motivated in every. single. serious. raider. period. No lame excuses of keybindings. The exact opposite is commonplace in more serious raids: pushing too hard. stand a little longer in there. Moving out for detonations on the last possible second. Pushing damage. Nowadays when I tank I sometimes stand in bad stuff that I can handle myself just to squeeze out a little more ap from vengeance and therefore a little bit of extra damage. Reforging every other heroic boss where Tank damage is controllable to push these extra 1-10k dps... So until we don't see parses or a armory profile I'd call bs trolling on the ops end.
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post
    So if his parses don't matter (let's ignore scumbag dps possibilities here as we have no logs), then what does? His statement of his rotation? People can know something really well and fail to execute it properly. Happens in raiding all the time (and in professional sports, performance arts, etc). So then what is the measure of a "good" player?

    IMO, if he parses well without scumbag DPS, then it does absolutely mean something. Ignoring reality (being a top DPS in an 8/13 H top 360-ish guild) for a theoretical (what his rotation "should" be) doesn't seem like an effective way to evaluate players as a RL.

    Frankly, I suspect a lot more bosses would die if most players turned off their recounts and spent more time fixing their positioning, coordination, and communication skills than spending hours talking/theorcrafting a 1-2% DPS difference.
    What matters is how well they would do against another person in the same situation. A player who can parse in the 70th percentile isn't good if another player could use the same gear and parse in the 90th because they play their class right.

  4. #44
    Here's the problem with defending the hunter... we're talking ONE keybind and one different press when GT is up. This just wouldn't be that hard for a top parsing hunter to do. If he's arguing that he could do it but that it would be a DPS loss even when played right, he's simply incorrect. GT hits harder than AS so even if we just look at single target fights and sub GT in for an AS, it's a DPS increase.

    Might it be a hard thing to learn for a hunter? Perhaps. For a top parsing hunter in an 8/13H raid? Don't be silly.

  5. #45
    Why are you guys trying to advocate not using glaive toss? That's probably the worse thing you can do.

    The player in question is pretty good if he's ranking on fights without using it, but due to his skill level it shouldn't be any problem to add another key to hit every 15 seconds.

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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post
    Why would you pick a fight with one of your top DPS players over such a small difference?

    Let's examine possible outcomes from a RL perspective:

    Dream Scenario:

    Possible Good Scenario:

    Possible Neutral Scenario:

    Possible Bad Scenario 1:

    Possible Bad Scenario 2:

    These are things that RL's have to think about. Now, this may or may not pertain to the OP, only the OP can tell us. But even the most harmonious raid group has issues.

    It is a math problem and you left out raid awareness, reaction time, latency, player system hardware, the player's psychological state, the morale of the raid team, the restedness/fatigue of the team, etc.

    This hunter is good. Let's not be ridiculous about this. They play on a world class guild and is one of the top DPS for them. The fact that they do not push a button you think they should push when they should push it doesn't change that.

    But if RL was as easy as micromanaging the DPS rotation, everyone would be 13/13 H. But they aren't.

    This was already brought to the attention of the player. The player pushed back and basically said it would change their playstyle and lower their DPS. You might feel the player is full of crap, that's fine. The question is, are you now going to enforce your will on the Player?

    Bad things can happen when you do that, especially when you do it to a high performing player who feels what you want to do is going to hurt their performance.

    At that point, only the OP can tell us what those kinds of circumstances are. But that's what we're talking about.
    See this is why I have a hard time believing the OP is not some troll. Your kind of mentality is better suited if your the RL of some run of the mill raiding guild on a small to medium sized server, where your #1 priority is hoping to God everyone shows up for the next raid. Thats when its best to pick your battles and think of every possible scenario because awesome DPS is hard to come by and without any cache, or equity if you will, you best not be risking your best chance of downing bosses if your gain in minimal. But if your the RL of a top 400 guild, then why would you be concerned with the hunter's reaction? Obviously dont be a jerk about it, but if your raider is refusing to be better at his job than replace him with someone who will. Even a hunter thats a notch below in skill could easily replicate the dps because he'd be using GT! I highly doubt a RL gets his guild to 8/13 by being overly concerned with the reactions of his underlings. Hence why I call bull.

  7. #47
    Honestly, it'd be nice to see an armory instead of a probable troll post, if he's honestly as good as you say he is, replacing AS with one GT will not in any way harm him, whether it be in DPS or "fun," which is just beyond silly.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 04:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Why are you guys trying to advocate not using glaive toss? That's probably the worse thing you can do.
    Also, this.

  8. #48
    this is a troll topic

    trust me i am an expert

  9. #49
    Mechagnome Nah's Avatar
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    Either it's a troll post or OP is exaggerating his progression. I went through parses of 8/13H 10-man guilds listed on wowprogress (yeah I was bored) and didn't find a single surv hunter not using glaive toss or barrage. Unless OP's guild is completely off the grid or got a new kill since posting (or is Asian, as I only went through US and EU guilds), this seems like a really unlikely scenario.

    Hunters do seem to have a huge number of keybinds compared to most other classes, but I really have a hard time believing that an otherwise high-performing player would use that sort of excuse.
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  10. #50
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post
    So if his parses don't matter (let's ignore scumbag dps possibilities here as we have no logs), then what does? His statement of his rotation? People can know something really well and fail to execute it properly. Happens in raiding all the time (and in professional sports, performance arts, etc). So then what is the measure of a "good" player?

    IMO, if he parses well without scumbag DPS, then it does absolutely mean something. Ignoring reality (being a top DPS in an 8/13 H top 360-ish guild) for a theoretical (what his rotation "should" be) doesn't seem like an effective way to evaluate players as a RL.

    Frankly, I suspect a lot more bosses would die if most players turned off their recounts and spent more time fixing their positioning, coordination, and communication skills than spending hours talking/theorcrafting a 1-2% DPS difference.
    No, parses are EVIDENCE not PROOF. I got a good rank on one fight, I'd have had a much better rank if I hadn't made X mistake. I didn't parse on one fight, I would have if I hadn't passed X piece of loot last week. On some fights, like Dark Animus, not having a parse doesn't mean shit. If you parse it's because you weren't holding an add until your time to dump it. Some fights, especially in 10m, you have jobs to do that cost DPS, and that's OK. Others you can pad like mad (I did this on prim a few weeks ago for a rank.)

    If you aren't improving when you could, you're either bad or an idiot.

  11. #51
    Just use barrage and scumbag, it's 30 seconds

    Jinrokh: Glaive
    Horridon: Barrage the adds
    Council: Barrage all the bosses
    Tortos: Barrage everything in the room
    Megaera: Barrage extra heads
    Jikun: Barrage nests
    Durumu: Barrage turn 90 degree to hit boss and fog
    Primordius: Barrage everything in the room
    Dark animus: Barrage lol careful here
    Twins: Barrage suen
    Lei Shen: Barrage lightning balls

    So there you have it. 30s barrage can be used on every fight because of adds and shit and half of them you can scumbag like dead turtles on Tortos and extra head on Megaera. Shit I'm going to do this next week. Inb4 500k dps on Tortos.
    Last edited by Libertarian; 2013-05-11 at 08:47 AM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Glaive Toss does about 33% more damage than an Arcane Shot and costs 5 less focus. I don't see why you wouldn't use it.
    Why didn't he try to compare the damage in-game?
    This, there's no need for theorycrafting here. All the numbers in the game show that Glaive Toss is better.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
    Just use barrage and scumbag, it's 30 seconds

    Jinrokh: Glaive
    Horridon: Barrage the adds
    Council: Barrage all the bosses
    Tortos: Barrage everything in the room
    Megaera: Barrage extra heads
    Jikun: Barrage nests
    Durumu: Barrage turn 90 degree to hit boss and fog
    Primordius: Barrage everything in the room
    Dark animus: Barrage lol careful here
    Twins: Barrage suen
    Lei Shen: Barrage lightning balls

    So there you have it. 30s barrage can be used on every fight because of adds and shit and half of them you can scumbag like dead turtles on Tortos and extra head on Megaera. Shit I'm going to do this next week. Inb4 500k dps on Tortos.
    "dead" turtles on Tortos don't take any damage. Also I'm not sure about barrage on ji-kun and twins though.

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  14. #54
    Dreadlord Ashe-Arathor's Avatar
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    He doesn't like having to move his keybindings? Really?

    My keybindings are using every single freaking spot on my keyboard and I can still shift/alt-modify my macros with extras if needed.
    Don't believe me?

    1 - Kill Shot
    2 - Explosive Shot
    3 - Arcane Shot
    4 - Black Arrow
    5 - Master's Call
    6 - Camouflage
    7 - Murder of Crows
    8 - Concussive Shot
    9 - Healthstone
    0 - Extra Action-Button
    Shift+1 - Hunter's Mark
    Shift+2 - Fervor
    Shift+3 - Tranquilizing Shot
    Shift+4 - Disengage
    Shift+½ - Glaive Toss
    Shift+Q - Misdirection
    Shift+E - Mend Pet
    Shift+V - Trap Launcher Toggle
    Shift+C - Widow Venom
    Shift+G - Deterrence
    F1 - Feign Death
    F2 - Aspect of the Iron Hawk
    F3 - Aspect of the Pack/Cheetah
    Shift+Z - Ice Trap
    Shift+S - Binding Shot
    CTRL+C - Frost Trap
    CTRL+X - Snake Trap
    Shift+X - Explosive Trap
    CTRL+½ - Rapid Fire + Stampede + Rabid Macro
    Shift+R - Scatter Shot
    CTRL+C - Rocket Jump
    CTRL+S - Rocket Barrage
    F and Shift+F - Ground Mount and Flying Mount
    ½ - Readiness
    Q - Multi-shot
    E - Cobra Shot
    ALT+E - Distracting Shot
    ALT+Q - Flare

    Yeah, I took all the time out to type that, I had nothing better to do.
    There's no way he should be saying he doesn't have more room on his bars or for another keybinding.
    Last edited by Ashe-Arathor; 2013-05-11 at 12:07 PM.
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  15. #55
    High Overlord Solarflair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaizze View Post
    He says that he would have to move another primary button off of his keybinds to use it and does not want to do it.
    This was my favorite part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Glaive Toss does about 33% more damage than an Arcane Shot and costs 5 less focus. I don't see why you wouldn't use it.
    Why didn't he try to compare the damage in-game?
    This is why. There was one point where Glaive Toss would get weird with moving targets on not hit on the return sometimes... or something - but I'm pretty sure that's been fixed.

    #TeamHunter

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Glaive Toss does about 33% more damage than an Arcane Shot and costs 5 less focus. I don't see why you wouldn't use it.
    Why didn't he try to compare the damage in-game?
    Have you seen anywhere calculations that take into account our new set bonus? It improves the value of arcane shot, but I haven't been able to find or figure out whether it's enough to change our priorities.

  17. #57
    Jesus christ, I cant believe you guys are arguing about this.

    Lets get this thing set straight, the fact that he's ranking is probably because he's geared, and nothing else. A hunter in a 8/13 guild will have some gear, and with gear, its 10 times easier to rank. The fact that this guy isnt using GT proves it even more.

    Now heres the thing, GT is one of the things that separate the wheat from the chaff.
    Isnt it annoying to know that your hunter could be doing more dps if he actually played his class right?
    If he refuses to use it just because of some keybinds or whatever, he's no better than the average joe in LFR when it comes to dps'ing.

    Spamming AS and ES only is so ridiculously easy, it almost gets boring from time to time.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurgosh View Post
    Have you seen anywhere calculations that take into account our new set bonus? It improves the value of arcane shot, but I haven't been able to find or figure out whether it's enough to change our priorities.
    No I don't, but it wouldn't really matter anyway. Our new 4 set is an RPPM mechanic meaning if you don't get a proc for a while it'll proc later on. There is no noticeable difference in a full Arcane Shot rotation and one with Glaive Toss weaved in.
    Bovan.9481
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  19. #59
    I don't see what the problem is. If he is one of the top DPS in your raid comp - leave him be. Work with those who are below him.
    My Little Borg: Friendship is Irrelevant

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Blaizze View Post
    Hey all just looking for a little advice about one of my raiders.

    We are currently 8/13 HM and run a 10 Man raid. I have a Hunter who plays excellent and is always in the 80th - 90th percentile on fights, and also has multiple high parsing ranks. I never thought to scan through his rotation until I found out that he does not use ANY of his level 90 talents.

    Playing Survival, he says that Glaive Toss will be a DPS Loss than if he does not use it.

    I have never thought to question what he does because he plays at a high level, however, to me it seems like it would be a DPS loss to not use a 90 talent.

    Simulations come out about 4000-5000 DPS higher, however he disputes the accuracy of them for that.


    So is he sacrificing higher DPS by not using this talent? On single target / and on AOE fights (Barrage?)

    I believe Glaive Toss to be the highest DPET for Hunters.

    He says that he would have to move another primary button off of his keybinds to use it and does not want to do it.

    If somebody could post a fairly detailed reasoning behind an argument for or against using a level 90 talent, it would be appreciated. He is the type that needs a detailed and logical explanation, not just a "because its a level 90 talent" type response. He does like to theorycraft which made me very surprised that he is using NO level 90 talent.

    Thank you

    Wow what kind of a game tyrant are you that you have to dictate what other people should or should not do? It is not as if you guys were failing in raid or something. You have already said he was doing very well. If you want to control other people in game, please go pay his $15 a month fee.

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