Why so much enthusiasm for F2P basis for MMOs?

[Edge-]

I've yet to see a game which doesn't have some pay-to-win element, even if it's indirectly. To me, even a consumable experience boost is pay-to-win. I don't want any of it.

How are they winning? With any end-game centric game, leveling is pointless and absolutely not the focus of the game, so getting to max level 1 day faster than Joe Schmoe doesn't really matter all that much. If you view them as P2W, then you're never going to find a F2P game that isn't "P2W", but that's because your view of what constitutes P2W is kinda fucked up.

[Leih]

How are they winning? With any end-game centric game, leveling is pointless and absolutely not the focus of the game, so getting to max level 1 day faster than Joe Schmoe doesn't really matter all that much. If you view them as P2W, then you're never going to find a F2P game that isn't "P2W", but that's because your view of what constitutes P2W is kinda fucked up.

I already described this entire problem in my original post. I don't think anyone read it, they just skipped to the punchline it seems?

I realise that most people probably don't have a problem with this sort of thing. I realise that it is never going to be solved, and my ideal situation is never going to exist for practical reasons. I accept that.

I'm just saying, in my personal opinion, my enthusiasm for playing the F2P games I've tried is ruined by the cash shop creating so many opportunities to easily and conveniently boost yourself. Even if those boosts are in fairly indirect ways, it still kills my enthusiasm for the game because of the uneven footing for each player. It should either be free or it should have a set price for everyone. I don't like this "The more you pay, the easier things are for you!" situation.

And all of them do that in some way. And sure, an XP booster isn't a big deal after the game's been out for a couple of weeks (in the first couple of weeks of launch, it actually might be a bigger deal, but I digress). There are other things which are a problem. For example, Rift just announced their F2P model. And I liked Rift, it was a pretty good game, but now you pay to get bonus currency to spend on dungeon and raid gear? Sure, you still have to complete the raids to get the currency in the first place so it's not directly pay-to-win, but the fact remains if you pay extra you make things easier and reduce your grinds.

For me, personally, that leaves a foul taste. Your mileage may vary.

I also understand why they do it, and how the F2P model works, but while it does work that way it makes me personally prefer a sub game. That's all I'm saying.

[Valeron]

If you are going by that route then even WoW has a pay to win cash shop.

[Leih]

I would say that WoW's recruit-a-friend system is also quite objectionable, though at least it's not part of the ingame UI which makes it less tempting to use. And, like said, levelling becomes less of an issue when a game is so old so XP buffs isn't the end of the world, as I agreed already. Would still be a better game without the option though, unquestionably.

I can't think of anything else you can legally buy with real money in WoW that offers an advantage, unless you're getting really pedantic and want to argue that companion pets create an unfair advantage in pet battles. But pet battles is hardly comparable to being able to buy extra raid currency.

[Valeron]

You can buy mounts, they provide an in game advantage.

[Mormolyce]

No, I didn't say that at all.

I play and pay for a subscription based game because I prefer to pay a fixed amount that puts everyone on an even ground, rather than play a game that pretends to be free when really it's pay-to-win in some way.

I don't think you read what I said at all, either that or you totally misunderstood (or quoted the wrong person)

Oh I didn't realise you were saying that you don't like F2P because you prefer P2P.

Still, I think that if a game is F2P it has to have SOME way of making money. Whether that goes as far as Pay to Win is a bit subjective but I'd say speeding up a grind a bit is not a big deal.

[Edge-]

I would say that WoW's recruit-a-friend system is also quite objectionable, though at least it's not part of the ingame UI which makes it less tempting to use. And, like said, levelling becomes less of an issue when a game is so old so XP buffs isn't the end of the world, as I agreed already. Would still be a better game without the option though, unquestionably.

I can't think of anything else you can legally buy with real money in WoW that offers an advantage, unless you're getting really pedantic and want to argue that companion pets create an unfair advantage in pet battles. But pet battles is hardly comparable to being able to buy extra raid currency.

But you're picking and choosing here. Many of the F2P games around are pretty old. EQ2 was released around the time WoW was. AoC, DDO, LOTRO, and others are 4+ years old, which mean they already have a big group of people at max level, so level boosters are "less of an issue" according to you.

As for pet battles not being able to get you extra currency, that's irrelevant. You can't purchase raid currency in most F2P games, or purchase anything that improves the rate at which you acquire end-game gear at max level. Short of a game like Tera (which is designed around letting people sell dungeon gear at high levels and always has been), I can't think of any that offer that. Some offer bonuses to subscribers, but nothing you purchase through the cash shop.

I'm just trying to find a bit of consistency in your arguments, since you seem to go back and forth a bit.

[Sunseeker]

Probably because the current gaming generation doesn't have multiple hours every day to support paying for access. Probably in large part due to the young gamers who used to be able to do that, who are now getting jobs and families that are taking up more and more of the time, and forcing them to pay for the things they want instead of their parents.

[Valeron]

Why are xp boosters a big deal anyway?

[Organoth]

I played WoW for years and when I walked away the first time I walked away at the top of my game. Was in a World Top 5% guild for PvE at the end of Wrath. The hardcore raiding burned me out and I gave it up, literately gave up my account.

I got the bug to start playing again about a year into Cata. By time I hit lvl 85 on a brand new account was right about around the time the introduced LFR. It allowed me to see the final raid tier but I missed so much that I felt out of place. During this time they came out with the 1 year subscription service and I let myself be suckered into it since I had planed on buying Diablo III anyways.

I still had like 3 months left on my subscription but I stopped playing again. If had my original account still it may have been different. I would have had multiple toons that I could have quickly leveled from 80-85. As soon as I was able to I cancelled my subscription.

If WoW was F2P I would at least have the chance to try out the new content and changes and see if it is enough to bring me back and if it does I wouldn't have to spend money if I didn't want to. $15 a month is not a lot but paying any money for something you don't like or enjoy is a waste.

[Leih]

Mounts scale with your current level of riding skill. You only need one mount of any kind, anything beyond that is vanity. You could argue that buying your first mount as a new player saves you the cost of buying that original mount.

How much is your original mount nowadays? It's less than 1 gold. That's not what I call an ingame advantage by any stretch of the imagination. I think you're clearly just jerking the chain now to try and catch me out in some kind of contradiction. But I'm not sure why? I only posted my personal opinion on why I don't currently enjoy F2P offerings. Don't make it some quest to defeat me like I'm going to suddenly go "Oh hey you're right, I'm gonna start playing them right now!"

[Hiricine]

The game industry had leaned towards top-quality, high-price games for so long, there was a void for lower-quality, cheaper games. Now that the void is filling, you're seeing the appropriate enthusiasm for that end of the spectrum.

Keep in mind, television is basically free, but people still pay to go see movies, and pay for premium channels. F2P vs. paying is about equivalent to having broadcast channels versus cable.

[Valeron]

Ah so you are fine with the inconsistencies that you are saying, no big deal.

[Deleted]

Because it's free, some people prefer being "nickel and dimed" than flat out having a chunk of money taken each month. If you compare what you get for 14 euro per month from free mmos vs wows flat payment simply for server access you probably end up with more reward at the end of say a year.

I personally dont mind paying for what you want from free mmo's as I can choose what I end up with. That really for me is what makes the difference.

[Leih]

Ah so you are fine with the inconsistencies that you are saying, no big deal.

You failed to actually point any out I'm afraid. Unless you genuinely think that paying $5 for bonus raid currency at max level is the same as paying $20 to save yourself 1g on the first mount you ever buy on your account as a new player (and ONLY if you're a new player)

Hint: The second one is not an ingame advantage. You could get 1 gold in game at level 20 faster than you could actually go to the blizzard store and type in your card details. It's entirely insignificant, blizzard store mounts are vanity only. If they did offer a real ingame advantage, I would happily admit it.

[Mormolyce]

Recruit a friend? That's hardly P2W. At best it helps level some alts.

You can buy mounts, they provide an in game advantage.

Oh come on.

[Edge-]

You failed to actually point any out I'm afraid. Unless you genuinely think that paying $5 for bonus raid currency at max level is the same as paying $20 to save yourself 1g on the first mount you ever buy on your account as a new player (and ONLY if you're a new player)

Hint: The second one is not an ingame advantage. You could get 1 gold in game at level 20 faster than you could actually go to the blizzard store and type in your card details. It's entirely insignificant, blizzard store mounts are vanity only. If they did offer a real ingame advantage, I would happily admit it.

Which game offers that through the cash shop though? And does it matter if it applies to older raids instead of the current tier? Because if that's the case, then that's technically not paying to win either, since in a game like WoW you simply bypass the older raids anyways. It's simply "catching you up" to where the current trend is.

[Valeron]

Recruit a friend? That's hardly P2W. At best it helps level some alts.
.

But XP boosters are P2W?

[Deleted]

I can't think of anything else you can legally buy with real money in WoW that offers an advantage, unless you're getting really pedantic and want to argue that companion pets create an unfair advantage in pet battles. But pet battles is hardly comparable to being able to buy extra raid currency.

Buy TCG cards and sell items in game for gold. Then you can use that gold on BMAH, buy best BoE epics or pay for boosting in raids etc.

[Deleted]

btw, did you know that P2P games are basically P2W?

I mean, if you can't play the game, you can't possibly win. Now, if you drop your subscription money, you CAN win (and with the entitlement-generation of MMO gamers, they should be handed the stuff just for subscribing. I mean, WTF am I paying for anyways?!? *opens thread on the Oboards*)

@Kae
I believe the majority here will agree with me when I say: Your personal definition of "p2w" is WRONG.