Megeara

[Definition]

Hey all, just a quick question on whether you guys are rupturing both heads on megeara? Is it a single target dps boost because of the regen?

[Deleted]

Yes, it is. Sometimes it's better to vanish -> garrote other head for energy regen. But, remember one think.... It's only worth when heads are abreast (I mean, killing venom and rupturing frost or killing frost and rupturing fire etc...) because running to the other side of platform to get rupture up is dps loss definitely.

[theherecy]

Bad maths incoming:

A 30s rupture (assuming t15 2pc) will generate 113 energy on average. This provides enough for almost 2 mutilates which on average will generate 4-5 combo points, 66% chance of proccing a dispatch so plenty of extra damage and an extra CP. Then you can get the evenem you would have done anyway.

Rupture tabbing is no different to any other class multi-dotting for more procs but you must be careful to be quick as the above calculations don't factor in the few melee swings that may proc poisons..

[Venant]

Is it really worthwhile to do this on H Megeara where you need lots of single target DPS in order to prevent extra abilities from going out?

[theherecy]

Is it really worthwhile to do this on H Megeara where you need lots of single target DPS in order to prevent extra abilities from going out?

I've just put the maths there to show that it is a dps increase. More energy = more dps.

[Venant]

I've just put the maths there to show that it is a dps increase. More energy = more dps.

How much of that dps is effectively useless, since extra damage on heads you aren't killing doesn't help you kill the boss. The extra energy gained needs to be offset by either losing auto attacks/meta procs and possibly burning redirect to put up a second rupture instead of getting 5 CP on a new head at the beginning.

I don't want to seem argumentative, however I am finding during heroic progression that when people are 'padding meters' on fights it seems to really hamper progression (like hunters that just spam aoe on Tortos and do 600k dps). Meg is another fight that I found really annoying because I would look at logs and see stuff like crazy amounts of cleave damage going out onto heads that weren't the kill target.

[theherecy]

How much of that dps is effectively useless, since extra damage on heads you aren't killing doesn't help you kill the boss. The extra energy gained needs to be offset by either losing auto attacks/meta procs and possibly burning redirect to put up a second rupture instead of getting 5 CP on a new head at the beginning.

That damage calculated (if you read it) was a consequence of the energy gained, not how much rupture would tick for. Yes, as stated, you would lose damage in melee and poison swings not on the direct target.

I land a melee swing every 1.2 seconds for 16k average which has a 30% chance to do ~35k, so I think that about answer the question.

[Kael]

Bad maths incoming:

A 30s rupture (assuming t15 2pc) will generate 113 energy on average. This provides enough for almost 2 mutilates which on average will generate 4-5 combo points, 66% chance of proccing a dispatch so plenty of extra damage and an extra CP. Then you can get the evenem you would have done anyway.

Rupture tabbing is no different to any other class multi-dotting for more procs but you must be careful to be quick as the above calculations don't factor in the few melee swings that may proc poisons..

Putting up that rupture may be approximately energy neutral, but that doesn't make it a damage increase on the main head. At a cost of 110 energy to get 112.5 energy (minus auto-attacks to keep DP up for the duration), you're necessarily acting at a loss unless 2.5 energy and a 66% chance of dispatch is worth more than a few seconds (say, 5-6) of auto-attacks. Which it isn't, as you pointed out later. Also, unless I'm missing something the 5CP+bonus rup should be 28s? Lowering the energy gain to 105, and under the opportunity cost (I could be missing something, can't log on WoW to check atm).

Rupture multi-dotting is a damage increase - just not a single target increase. There are some few specs for which dotting a second target is an increase on a single target - but it's rare.

It is similarly not worth it to garrote a second head. Assuming you don't lose DP, you gain 45 energy on average from the duration, but give up using a 55 energy ability in its place - which the garrote is trying to fund.

[theherecy]

At a cost of 110 energy to get 112.5 energy (minus auto-attacks to keep DP up for the duration), you're necessarily acting at a loss unless 2.5 energy and a 66% chance of dispatch is worth more than a few seconds (say, 5-6) of auto-attacks.

Cost of 110 energy to get 112 energy? You've really lost me there, unless you are counting the 2 mutilates to accumulate a 5 combo point rupture? You would mutilate on the MAIN HEAD and switch to OFF HEAD. The only difference in dmg dains/losses is either an envenom on main head (solo) or rupture on off head (which provides an envenom through energy gains amongst others).

Also, unless I'm missing something the 5CP+bonus rup should be 28s? Lowering the energy gain to 105, and under the opportunity cost (I could be missing something, can't log on WoW to check atm).

5-6s? 5cps -> redirect on focus -> rupture -> main boss. The hit boxes on magera are insanely larger than they let off.And I was under the impression it was a 30s rupture, if not then of course the calculations need adjusting.

One final thing, all this can be achieved through focus macros, so you never even drop your main target.

[Deleted]

You can use redirect every time new head spawns to gain 5 CPs u didnt use on previous one since we all know its jerking around for a while at 1 hp and u dont need to DPS sth already dead. That way u gain "free" 5 CPs and since 5 CPs are almost equal (as some kind guys already said) to ur ~100 energy why would u waste ur time on srs macros?

Ofc this works unless u are in one of those few bis guilds that kills heads faster than ur redirect cd (actually fastest kill in the world atm is from 55 secs to 1 min per head) or u simply want MOAR DEEPS. In those cases, go ahead.

[theherecy]

You can use redirect every time new head spawns to gain 5 CPs u didnt use on previous one since we all know its jerking around for a while at 1 hp and u dont need to DPS sth already dead. That way u gain "free" 5 CPs and since 5 CPs are almost equal (as some kind guys already said) to ur ~100 energy why would u waste ur time on srs macros?

Ofc this works unless u are in one of those few bis guilds that kills heads faster than ur redirect cd (actually fastest kill in the world atm is from 55 secs to 1 min per head) or u simply want MOAR DEEPS. In those cases, go ahead.

If you bothered to keep up with any other posts on this boss, you would know how buggy that boss is with redirect when they "die". Also, it's not necessarily about gaining overall dps. Our healers prefer to save some cd's for the last head, this means the 4th/5th may need to go down quicker. Using this method provides a more aggressive dps approach on a single head.

[Definition]

Thanks for the replies guys!

[Kael]

Cost of 110 energy to get 112 energy? You've really lost me there, unless you are counting the 2 mutilates to accumulate a 5 combo point rupture? You would mutilate on the MAIN HEAD and switch to OFF HEAD. The only difference in dmg dains/losses is either an envenom on main head (solo) or rupture on off head (which provides an envenom through energy gains amongst others).



5-6s? 5cps -> redirect on focus -> rupture -> main boss. The hit boxes on magera are insanely larger than they let off.And I was under the impression it was a 30s rupture, if not then of course the calculations need adjusting.

One final thing, all this can be achieved through focus macros, so you never even drop your main target.

Redirect is only up once a minute, and, as mentioned, should probably be used at the head swap. Regardless, using rupture by itself isn't enough. Venomous wounds should only proc on a target with a bleed AND DP active (in tooltips, I haven't checked because I've never had a reason to rupture a target I didn't want DP ticking on). Assuming you lose 1s to reapply it you're really only down to 2s of auto-attack downtime (initial application and again halfway through). I suppose it's possible to see a DPS gain if you're using redirect for it, but I'd sooner generate CP and redirect after a head is dead before it submerges.

I might well be wrong for the serious maximizers. Using redirect to get that rupture up and maintaining DP on the second head during the rupture could potentially be an increase.

[theherecy]

Redirect is only up once a minute, and, as mentioned, should probably be used at the head swap. Regardless, using rupture by itself isn't enough. Venomous wounds should only proc on a target with a bleed AND DP active (in tooltips, I haven't checked because I've never had a reason to rupture a target I didn't want DP ticking on). Assuming you lose 1s to reapply it you're really only down to 2s of auto-attack downtime (initial application and again halfway through). I suppose it's possible to see a DPS gain if you're using redirect for it, but I'd sooner generate CP and redirect after a head is dead before it submerges.

I might well be wrong for the serious maximizers. Using redirect to get that rupture up and maintaining DP on the second head during the rupture could potentially be an increase.

I would too like to save it, but there's nothing better than blizzard shafting you out of 5 combo points because they can't maintain any consistency. The fight is so buggy; use it or lose it. Although you should be right with the VW and poison thing, i'm not sure that's actually correct. Many a time I throw ruptures on new enemies without getting poisons on, still see energy gains.

I'm guessing it's an old tooltip but I should probably do some further testing..

[Fluorescent0]

You definitely need Deadly Poison to be applied. You could try mantaining it via fan of knives (you only really need to do it once), one should suffice and you don't reset your swing timer. Guess that solution would be much better for someone going heavy haste rather than heavy mastery though.

[theherecy]

You definitely need Deadly Poison to be applied. You could try mantaining it via fan of knives (you only really need to do it once), one should suffice and you don't reset your swing timer. Guess that solution would be much better for someone going heavy haste rather than heavy mastery though.

Okay thanks, not sure what I'm seeing then :S.

In any case, FOK is expensive and will probably negate the potential energy gains. The only viable option is to get deadly poisons running on both targets but this becomes tedious and probably doesn't gain any benefit to your single target (very small gains, if any).

With that said, heroic megaera requires good use of FOK on the adds (depending on strat used)...

[Carp The Fish]

Normal Magaera:
No reason to multi-dot with Rupture. The main heads already die fairly quickly, so you wouldn't really see the benefits of multi-dotting Rupture.

Heroic Magaera (although I haven't seen the fight):
Since multi-dotting takes time/energy/DPS away from the main head, and you gain no single-target DPS procs from multi-dotting Rupture on two targets (as people have pointed out, 2-target Rupture cleave is energy-neutral, meaning there is no tangible main-head DPS gain from doing it), there is no reason for ANY rogue to multi-dot Rupture on the two heads on Heroic. In addition (to my understanding), the adds don't last long enough to multi-dot Rupture them, so...don't do it.

Now, if I were to go off of Mugajak's findings from earlier (costs 110 energy to get Rupture up, gives 112.5), you'd get (approx.) 50 energy over the course of the 10-minute Heroic fight (assuming average first-kill times, T15 2P and applying Rupture on the off-head every 30 seconds). Now that's DEFINITELY not worth the effort, considering the fact that the 60 energy gain isn't really tangible.

[Sesshou]

Now, if I were to go off of Mugajak's findings from earlier (costs 110 energy to get Rupture up, gives 112.5), you'd get (approx.) 50 energy over the course of the 10-minute Heroic fight (assuming average first-kill times, T15 2P and applying Rupture on the off-head every 30 seconds). Now that's DEFINITELY not worth the effort, considering the fact that the 60 energy gain isn't really tangible.

Its worse off than that. DP lasts what, 12 seconds? To get the full benefit of a 28 second rupture's VW procs you would have to refresh dp twice. So either you spend energy doing that or you auto attack to do it and either of which is a large dps loss on your actual target. This is still ignoring potential auto attacks that occur while you redirect a rupture.

[Carp The Fish]

Its worse off than that. DP lasts what, 12 seconds? To get the full benefit of a 28 second rupture's VW procs you would have to refresh dp twice. So either you spend energy doing that or you auto attack to do it and either of which is a large dps loss on your actual target. This is still ignoring potential auto attacks that occur while you redirect a rupture.

No benefit WHATSOEVER then. Got it.

[Deleted]

With 2p T15 you need a 2CP rupture and an applied poison (lasts 15 seconds) to use the full effect. So we are talking about 0-7 energy procs and possibly some enchantments/trinket proccs.
If you do it right (redirect 2 combopoints, then switch immediately back) you might lose 3-5 autohits + 2 CP.

So if we ignore the enchantment proccs (I am not sure about this) and look at the energy gain, which will most likely be 40-60 energy, we gain essentially a free mutilate on our primary target for trading 3-5 autohits and 2 CP. A free mut brings 2-4 CP and the damage/poison procs are somewhat comparable to the lost autohits.

I would say its worth it, but its a very marginal gain if any and needs to be perfectly executed.