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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Agreed, while mage burst is high - my complaint about mages has always been about their level of control - not their actual damage. Their damage occurs over too small a window - while your opponent is stunned and unable to respond. A more visible / counter-able burst cycle, and reduced control - would be a far better solution to fmages than the Incanter's Ward change.
    What control are you talking about? Kiting control? Because to nerf kiting control you need to also nerf melee mobility and interrupts/stuns/silences. Huge changes.

    If you're talking about deep being off the global cooldown, hence enabling an instant deep -> imp cs on the healer kind of control, I agree - I don't think deep glyph should exist.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by moistau View Post
    What control are you talking about? Kiting control? Because to nerf kiting control you need to also nerf melee mobility and interrupts/stuns/silences. Huge changes.

    If you're talking about deep being off the global cooldown, hence enabling an instant deep -> imp cs on the healer kind of control, I agree - I don't think deep glyph should exist.
    Taking Deep Freeze off the global was a huge mistake.

    When they wanted to remove the blanket silence from Counterspell - and then thought it would only be fair to also remove it from Spell Lock - and then realized how terrible that would be to warlocks so they reverted it...

    What they should have done was recognized that locks are not mages, and removing the blanket silence from Counterspell doesn't mean they also have to do it to Spell Lock.

    Off-GCD CC's, whether they come from pet stuns / sleeps, or psyfiends, or off-global deep freezes - are all terrible for balance. They let people take multiple 'turns' in the span of a single opponent turn.
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  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Taking Deep Freeze off the global was a huge mistake.

    When they wanted to remove the blanket silence from Counterspell - and then thought it would only be fair to also remove it from Spell Lock - and then realized how terrible that would be to warlocks so they reverted it...

    What they should have done was recognized that locks are not mages, and removing the blanket silence from Counterspell doesn't mean they also have to do it to Spell Lock.

    Off-GCD CC's, whether they come from pet stuns / sleeps, or psyfiends, or off-global deep freezes - are all terrible for balance. They let people take multiple 'turns' in the span of a single opponent turn.
    No, they realised that removing blanket silences would make healers a lot more powerful since there's so much instant healing in the game, and they can't do anything about instant heals without a huge impact on PVE, so they put it in the "big change next xpac" basket for now.
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  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Taking Deep Freeze off the global was a huge mistake.

    When they wanted to remove the blanket silence from Counterspell - and then thought it would only be fair to also remove it from Spell Lock - and then realized how terrible that would be to warlocks so they reverted it...

    What they should have done was recognized that locks are not mages, and removing the blanket silence from Counterspell doesn't mean they also have to do it to Spell Lock.

    Off-GCD CC's, whether they come from pet stuns / sleeps, or psyfiends, or off-global deep freezes - are all terrible for balance. They let people take multiple 'turns' in the span of a single opponent turn.
    Agreed on the Deep global thing.

    But the CS thing I never agreed with, for the reasons the poster above stated... Seeing more 15+ minute 3s matches this expansion than I ever have before. Losing ranged blanket silence is a great idea and I am all for it (I played in TBC without Imp CS quite a bit), but only if instant cast damage/healing is nerfed. And to do this, you would need to nerf melee gap closers/interrupts. All big changes not really possible mid-expansion.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by moistau View Post
    Agreed on the Deep global thing.

    But the CS thing I never agreed with, for the reasons the poster above stated... Seeing more 15+ minute 3s matches this expansion than I ever have before. Losing ranged blanket silence is a great idea and I am all for it (I played in TBC without Imp CS quite a bit), but only if instant cast damage/healing is nerfed. And to do this, you would need to nerf melee gap closers/interrupts. All big changes not really possible mid-expansion.
    Are you guys maybe not aware that Counterspell also has an interrupt attached? If you use Counterspell to stop a cast, and Then shatter - or if you CC the healer and Then shatter - mages work actually Better than just dropping a 3 second silenced into the healer every 24 seconds. But then, that would require paying attention.

    In my day kicks were on the global cooldown, and we had to not attack if we wanted to stop a future heal from going through... kids today with their classes consistently entirely of off-GCD blanket CCs...

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  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Deep Freeze isn't needed. Any other times stuns have caused auto-crits has been nerfed.
    Have you ever seen anyone complain about Mage DPS outside of a Deep? No? That's because we don't do shit outside of Deeps.

    Until Blizzard comes up with a different way for us to DPS as Frost PvP, it's not going to change.

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  7. #187
    They deserve to be nerfed!
    I play a warrior and the balance play between the two classes Is disgusting.
    I think something needs to be done by deep freeze, if I were to duel a mage I could only survive possibly two deep freezes.
    I think that Blizzard should make deep freeze a cast ability rather than a instant one.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Have you ever seen anyone complain about Mage DPS outside of a Deep? No? That's because we don't do shit outside of Deeps.

    Until Blizzard comes up with a different way for us to DPS as Frost PvP, it's not going to change.
    Rogues do pretty much the worst dmg in the game without cd's but that didn't stop them nerfing rogue cd dmg.

  9. #189
    I'm not sure what the OP and his ilk are hoping to accomplish with this kind of threads.

    If they are trying to pressure Blizzard into nerfing the mage class into the ground ... well it isn't going to work.

    There is no reason for Blizzard to deliberately break a class.

    Trying to manipulate them is pointless. They aren't stupid. Their main concern is their bottom-line. They aren't politicians in a democracy. "Public opinion" is irrelevant. In the end they will do whatever it takes to keep as many subs as possible and they aren't going to do it by deliberately (further) breaking their game to appease internet trolls.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Are you guys maybe not aware that Counterspell also has an interrupt attached? If you use Counterspell to stop a cast, and Then shatter - or if you CC the healer and Then shatter - mages work actually Better than just dropping a 3 second silenced into the healer every 24 seconds. But then, that would require paying attention.

    In my day kicks were on the global cooldown, and we had to not attack if we wanted to stop a future heal from going through... kids today with their classes consistently entirely of off-GCD blanket CCs...

    I still wonder how you interrupt an instant heal with CS, since you conveniently ignored that part of the post just so you can play Smartass.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Are you guys maybe not aware that Counterspell also has an interrupt attached? If you use Counterspell to stop a cast, and Then shatter - or if you CC the healer and Then shatter - mages work actually Better than just dropping a 3 second silenced into the healer every 24 seconds. But then, that would require paying attention.

    In my day kicks were on the global cooldown, and we had to not attack if we wanted to stop a future heal from going through... kids today with their classes consistently entirely of off-GCD blanket CCs...

    Really?

    Did you not read my post? I said in TBC I played my Mage without Imp CS a lot of the time. It was totally viable back then. The only instant heals were: Prayer of Mending, NS Heals on 3 minute cooldown, and Druid HOTs (it's partly the reason Druids were so strong all of TBC). Locking out someone was usually the way to go for obvious reasons.

    Since Cata and now MOP, you can't get rid of blanket silences without first nerfing instant damage/healing. Which would require a nerf to melee mobility, interrupts, and stuns. The changes required are massive.

    You need to stop being a smartass and read posts...

  12. #192
    Something I don't get about counterspell

    Counterspell 24sec cd 4sec silence 6sec lockout 20sec cd if you interrupt with it.
    Spelllock 24sec cd 3sec silence 5sec lockout
    Silencing shot 24sec cd 3sec silence 3sec lockout

    Why is counterspell so much better than the other range silencing interrupts?

    And silence only lasts 1 sec longer but gets a 45sec cd. It also only has a 30yard range while cs has a 40.
    Does cs need a massive nerf or does silence need a massive buff?

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Something I don't get about counterspell

    Counterspell 24sec cd 4sec silence 6sec lockout 20sec cd if you interrupt with it.
    Spelllock 24sec cd 3sec silence 5sec lockout
    Silencing shot 24sec cd 3sec silence 3sec lockout

    Why is counterspell so much better than the other range silencing interrupts?

    And silence only lasts 1 sec longer but gets a 45sec cd. It also only has a 30yard range while cs has a 40.
    Does cs need a massive nerf or does silence need a massive buff?
    Yes, let's make all classes have exactly the same ability function so that this game becomes an even more homogenized pile of crap.

    The reason is because classes are supposed to have different mechanics. Shadow Priests for example have off-heals, as well as a bunch of other utility. Complaints like yours are the main reason every melee (and hell, even healers) got an interrupt or shorter cooldown gap closer, or sprint. Which in turn is the reason Mages turned into instant cast mongos. Please stahp.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by moistau View Post
    Yes, let's make all classes have exactly the same ability function so that this game becomes an even more homogenized pile of crap.
    You know that all three of those interrupts have been around forever right? Mages just get the best version because their mages nothing to do with anything you said.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    You know that all three of those interrupts have been around forever right? Mages just get the best version because their mages nothing to do with anything you said.
    You missed my point entirely. I'm saying why does every class have to have the same mechanics on their abilities when their entire tool set is different in different situations.

    Over the years these three interrupts have functioned somewhat differently, now they are closer to one another than ever. And to clarify, CS and Spell Lock have the same lock out time. Hunter doesn't lock out at all on PVP targets, only blankets.

    And Mages don't have a better version than Warlocks. It's identical. The difference is the PVP 2-set bonus. Warlocks also have a pretty good 2-set bonus you should check it out. Or do you want that to be the same as Mages too?
    Last edited by moistau; 2013-05-15 at 07:57 AM.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by moistau View Post
    You missed my point entirely. I'm saying why does every class have to have the same mechanics on their abilities when their entire tool set is different in different situations.

    Over the years these three interrupts have functioned somewhat differently, now they are closer to one another than ever. And to clarify, CS and Spell Lock have the same lock out time. Hunter doesn't lock out at all on PVP targets, only blankets.

    And Mages don't have a better version than Warlocks. It's identical. The difference is the PVP 2-set bonus. Warlocks also have a pretty good 2-set bonus you should check it out. Or do you want that to be the same as Mages too?
    I don't want things to be the same but counterspell didn't need any buffs just like shatter didn't need the buffs it got. Also silencing shot does lockout it works the same way as counterspell. Go duel a hunter have them silencing shot your frostbolt cast and try to block and let us know how that goes. But to be fair as a mage you probably don't cast enough in pvp to notice that.
    Last edited by wow; 2013-05-15 at 08:26 AM.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Why is counterspell so much better than the other range silencing interrupts?
    I think the reason lies with kit. Mages are masters of magic. There's lots of casters, but mages are the ones who know the most about magic itself, hence the best raw magical interrupt.

    And silence only lasts 1 sec longer but gets a 45sec cd. It also only has a 30yard range while cs has a 40.
    Does cs need a massive nerf or does silence need a massive buff?
    Not really either. Mages need nerfs, but they don't have to be to kit-heavy moves such as counterspell.


    Simply put, mage damage inside a deep is too threatening. Outside of a deep it's almost as bad as the slip-slapping sound of hemos that do nothing at all, but a mage can still contribute to the kill attempt of another dps, and still has a mile of spammable CC. Either mage deep damage needs to drop, or deep needs a real cooldown. The current nerfs result in the 1st, but not by much.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I think the reason lies with kit. Mages are masters of magic. There's lots of casters, but mages are the ones who know the most about magic itself, hence the best raw magical interrupt.



    Not really either. Mages need nerfs, but they don't have to be to kit-heavy moves such as counterspell.


    Simply put, mage damage inside a deep is too threatening. Outside of a deep it's almost as bad as the slip-slapping sound of hemos that do nothing at all, but a mage can still contribute to the kill attempt of another dps, and still has a mile of spammable CC. Either mage deep damage needs to drop, or deep needs a real cooldown. The current nerfs result in the 1st, but not by much.
    I still think the best idea is 1 min CD deep, or take it off of the global. But 1 min CD and not require the target to be frozen(or FoF) I would be fine with.

  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pewpewwindeeps View Post
    There are addons that can tell you how much CD is left on a mage's deep freeze. And like I said, it delays the deep, meaning that your other CDs, like trinket and a healer dispel are coming back up sooner with less deep freezes. And once again, I never said it was fair. I'm just pointing out that there are measures that every class has to go up against a mage burst, and that the majority of community outcry comes from players that don't have any idea how to play against a mage.
    Or that you are against terrible Mages that don't monitor your buffs, a good Mage WILL NOT cast deep if you have a damage reduction..

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-15 at 11:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Have you ever seen anyone complain about Mage DPS outside of a Deep? No? That's because we don't do shit outside of Deeps.

    Until Blizzard comes up with a different way for us to DPS as Frost PvP, it's not going to change.
    Except you do, Frozen Orb with cd's up and 2 FoF Ice Lances with a FFB crit is still big damage. To justify being killed in a deep because "we don't do shit outside of it" is stupid as well, as I've said in another thread, Mages need reworking big time.

  20. #200
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moistau View Post
    Really?

    Did you not read my post? I said in TBC I played my Mage without Imp CS a lot of the time. It was totally viable back then. The only instant heals were: Prayer of Mending, NS Heals on 3 minute cooldown, and Druid HOTs (it's partly the reason Druids were so strong all of TBC). Locking out someone was usually the way to go for obvious reasons.

    I read your post. It was why I was thinking about it and quoted it. It might have been more appropriate to quote Mormolyce (below), since I was kind of responding to both of you - and the more common assertion made about the blanket silence / instant heal dilemma. I could have been more clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    No, they realised that removing blanket silences would make healers a lot more powerful since there's so much instant healing in the game, and they can't do anything about instant heals without a huge impact on PVE, so they put it in the "big change next xpac" basket for now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moistau
    Since Cata and now MOP, you can't get rid of blanket silences without first nerfing instant damage/healing. Which would require a nerf to melee mobility, interrupts, and stuns. The changes required are massive.
    The changes have to begin somewhere. Melee mobility is up considerably since TBC (as are ranged gap openers), instant healing is up considerably. Healers can't cast, because of the plurality of interrupts / stuns / ccs / gap closers - just as you pointed out.

    When Blizzard targetted Improved Counterspell and Spell Lock, they did so precisely because they were some of the prime candidates for beginning a detente to the instant heal / interrupt war. Melee have many interrupts and gap closers, but they never get spammable CC - mages and locks have spammable CC, ranged interrupts, and blanket silences. Mage and lock players (myself included) constantly use their blanket silences not as an interrupt - but strictly as an instant CC in prelude to a cast CC chain or in response to a trinket out of a CC chain.

    This means that if a healer is sheeped, desperately needs to heal a teammate, trinkets, and then begins to cast - they would get counterspelled/spelllocked/silencing shot - and then re-CC'd. To solve this problem, healers were given powerful instant heals - if they trinket and blow a powerful instant heal, they can leverage the reaction time of the enemy mage/lock/hunter to perform their job before they get re-CC'd.

    Whenever this discussion starts up - people recognize that this dilemma exists: that both sides of this should probably be toned down, but until the other side is toned down - neither side wants to risk the first nerf, only to discover the other side didn't do their part. I understand (and feel) the distrust. My sarcasm / smartass-ism, is better explained by my ambivalence - it's been getting worse - every expansion both sides build ever more nuclear missiles because the other side kept building nuclear missiles, and meanwhile the economies collapse. I'm both concerned and jaded with going through the motions.

    The Dilemma:

    If we nerf instant heals first:
    - healers will be totally useless in pvp against the DPS who are designed now to be able to control healers who don't even cast
    - imbalance will reach heights I dare not imagine

    If we nerf melee gap closers / melee interrupts:
    - melee will be totally useless in pvp against healers who already barely cast as it is and are designed to escape from melee who chain-stun and chain-charge/leap/grip/sprint

    If we nerf all ranged interrupts:
    - warlocks will probably fall off the board, mages representation will drop significantly (below balanced representation? unsure, but seems doubtful)
    - hunters might suck outside of their 2-3 best comps, but that might still be fine for them given their plethora of pet stuns (I'd prefer to address hunter ranged CC by addressing pet stuns rather than silencing shot)
    - mages would... still be mages, and still be the stars of many rank 1 comps like RMP, MLD, MLS, Shatterplay, Shatreeplay (If spriests are still around next season)


    Of all the above choices, the blanket silence component of Counterspell (Improved Counterspell) is the best starting point for an armstice. If we think that hunters have too much control, the place isn't actually the scatter/trap DR - it should have been the pet CC's - they need to be fewer (meaning longer cooldowns, not fewer pets who have them) and on the hunters GCD. Locks still have a lot of control, but because of the rest of their kit - I don't think they need a nerf to it (but then, I play a lock - so maybe I'm biased here).

    Have you ever played Jenga? The Improved Counterspell block is the only one I think we can remove right now without breaking the balance. Also this commercial I found summarizes all WoW theorycrafting to me

    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-05-15 at 11:29 AM.
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