Is ToT too challenging causing the guild break ups?

[blackblade]

I didn't get that feeling at all. It seemed to mean that the vast majority of guilds doing 25man were going all in with heroic modes as well. Whereas raiding guilds that didn't intend to do heroics were content with 10man for normal. Recruitment and logistics for running 10mans are much easier, so it makes sense. I also feel that the 10mans are better tuned nowadays to provide a similar experience for the equal ilvl loot as 25man, as compared to when they were first around in Wrath and were a cakewalk.

If you recall, 10M in wrath provided a lower Ilvl. (The exception being 10H ICC, which provided an Ilvl that was equivalent to 25N.)

[Sparkidy]

That step up between Jin'Rokh and Horridon has been a huge detriment to my guild as well - first time we stepped into ToT we one shotted Jin'Rokh, it was a bit weird actually. Then spent 2 or 3 nights wiping on Horridon until eventually I had to switch from Windwalker to Brewmaster as our other tank didn't show up, and we got it first try. Got stuck on Council after that, but that's another story. Haven't been able to get Horridon down again either in the last couple of weeks, but then again I haven't been tanking again and 2 or 3 people aren't turning up because they don't feel like bashing their heads against the brick wall.

To me, getting that demotivated after 2 or 3 nights of wiping on a boss seems crazy, but then again I've been around since Vanilla where that (and worse, far worse) was the norm, and maybe these fair weather friends who keep disappearing are only used to the ease that we've all become recently accustomed to, or at least now that they've had a taste of that cake they're unwilling to put up with any adversity.

[stellvia]

If you recall, 10M in wrath provided a lower Ilvl. (The exception being 10H ICC, which provided an Ilvl that was equivalent to 25N.)

Exactly? Originally 10mans were tuned easier and gave less rewards than 25N. Now that they provide equal rewards and are about equally tuned in difficulty, most guilds not doing heroics don't see the point in exerting the extra time to maintaining a 25 person roster and all the extra management that requires. You don't even need to worry about DKP or Loot Council in 10man as well, because most loot only has 1-2 people needing it other than for tokens.

[mellowconundrum]

Jin'rokh is piss easy, but then the difficulty curve for Horridon feels like it overhangs. It's a bigger wall than Elegon and Garalon were.

So yes, I feel like ToT is probably causing more casual raiding guilds to either feel the stress or break up. We ended just just clearing Terrace and starting HC t14's though because that's still content to see - but it also allows us a chance to whip some of our raid members into shape under less frantic circumstances.

But, I'm also sure the ease of LFR is putting a strain on people's minds as well, there is a large mentality of "oh we wiped I'm leaving this lfr group/we should one shot this it's lfr" and it keeps transferring over to normal modes -.-

[Definition]

I think that you'll find that the majority of raiding guilds clear normal on week one, so no it isn't causing break ups.

[TirielWoW]

I think that you'll find that the majority of raiding guilds clear normal on week one, so no it isn't causing break ups.

I think you need to look up the definition of "majority."

[Dreknar20]

I think you need to look up the definition of "majority."

yeah, its only the hardcore full heroic raiders that clear normal within day one or week one

[Glorious Leader]

Exactly? Originally 10mans were tuned easier and gave less rewards than 25N. Now that they provide equal rewards and are about equally tuned in difficulty, most guilds not doing heroics don't see the point in exerting the extra time to maintaining a 25 person roster and all the extra management that requires. You don't even need to worry about DKP or Loot Council in 10man as well, because most loot only has 1-2 people needing it other than for tokens.

They are not equivalent difficulty. You can hide so many bad players in a 25 man it's not even funny. Your 10 man group can't have a single fucking bad.

---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 06:29 AM ----------

I think that you'll find that the majority of raiding guilds clear normal on week one, so no it isn't causing break ups.

Yea no. Really no other way to say it but you are wrong.

[TirielWoW]

yeah, its only the hardcore full heroic raiders that clear normal within day one or week one

I am not, of course, saying that. But to make the statement that the majority of guilds clear the entire instance is stretching it.

[Deleted]

Its funny that people ask why they care what other people are doing in the game. It's called competition. The less people that achieve something you have achieved makes your achievement all the sweeter. What good is achieving something that everyone and their dog has done, no good at all. The prestige in achieving any milestone in life is only able to be judged on how common that achievement is.

The reason they ask is because for most players competition is irrelevent.

Instead, they play to have - GASP - fun.

Something which is inherently fun/pleasurable does not devalue if someone else has the same experience. A funny joke doesn't become less funny to you if someone else hears it at the same time you do. A beautiful sunset doesn't get less beautiful just because another pair of eyes have seen it. etc

-

Thinking about it, blizzard already had nerfs in place above and beyond the ones they hotfixed in. Due to item scaling, LFR gearing, the return of VP upgrading and so on ToT was always going to be nerfed over time. The miscalculation was in thinking that players would patiently hang around, unable to get past boss 2 for two months plus.

[Rife]

I don't think content difficulty dictates how strong a guild is.

Guilds are about community.

You can wipe heaps and still have fun and talk to friends and make jokes while you're raiding.
You can also clear heroic content with ease and not enjoy raiding.

All depends on how much you enjoy the company of your guildies imo.

[hyphnos]

I think that you'll find that the majority of raiding guilds clear normal on week one, so no it isn't causing break ups.

I think if you look at the statistics, that you'll find a that nothing like a majority of raiding guilds have not cleared ToT now, much less in week 1 unless you're from a planet where 26% constitutes a majority.

[inkberry]

What? I don't think it's hard at all. It's really fun.

[TirielWoW]

What? I don't think it's hard at all. It's really fun.

Curious...how far in are you?

[Gilian]

Fatboss quits because of difficulty and Exodus quits because of normal being too hard? Just read what you are typing, can't you see how ridiculous that sounds?

You could carry a derpy tank to 4/8H DS. You could carry a derpy dps to 8/8H DS. You can't carry a derpy tank through normal Stone Guard until the healers are in heroic gear. You can't carry a derpy dps through normal Elegon until the rest of the dps are in very good gear. You can't carry any derps through Amber Shaper without just going multiple wipes and hoping for the right people to be transformed.

And how is this different from previous raids?

It really depends on what you think is 'derpy'. I was in a guild who finished half of the heroic bosses last tier. They were almost all 'derpy'. They actually died many times from annihilation on spirit kings after doing the same shit in LFR and normal like 30 times... They said they took raiding seriously. If you can't even focus on stepping out of annihilation after so many practice runs you really don't take raiding seriously. Times have changed I guess.
On that note. Raids have never been this easy. You get to practice mechanics as much as you want before you have to attempt normal/heroic unless you are in the top 50 of the world or you choose not to do LFR. Getting to see the fight a few times before even attempting the real deal with your guild is more valuable than any guide.

[Deleted]

GC admitted three levels of raid content wasn't enough. Where do you think an extra level would go? The only reasonable place is between LFR and the current normal mode. That new level of difficulty would be "Medium".

Yes, that is a tempting solution regardless of the names they give to the different diffuculty levels.

But the problem they have is LFR. There is a risk that the new difficulty level pulls the better LFR players from LFR and then LFR would be too hard. Something like this happened in late Cata when the DS nerfs were maxed: normal DS was easier than LFR DS. LFR groups wiped constantly because there were only "LFR people".

[Milchshake]

The combination of HoF and Tot being unevenly and slightly over-tuned kill my casual 10m guild. It was a 1-2 punch.
Like other guilds of fun loving muggles we got jammed hard on elgion and then garalon. We were still stuck on Ambershaper by the time ToT was released. After 2 weeks of trying to figure out Horridon our attendence just wilted. People left out of frustration.

A few times we managed to find a PuG to get into ToES. Every time we did ToES we got a full clear. But alas no one in guild had a stupid Empress kill. So we couldnt do it regularly to gear up. Hence more frustration.

[Murderdoll]

Raids have never been this easy. You get to practice mechanics as much as you want before you have to attempt normal/heroic unless you are in the top 50 of the world or you choose not to do LFR. Getting to see the fight a few times before even attempting the real deal with your guild is more valuable than any guide.

I agree with this sentiment.

Gearing has never been easier. There is a wealth of knowledge out there with so many guides. LFR gives you a basic taste of each boss.

If anything id like to see LFR a touch harder to give people a real taste of raiding and to be a real stepping stone into raids instead of the sheer leap that is now.

[Deleted]

GC admitted three levels of raid content wasn't enough. Where do you think an extra level would go? The only reasonable place is between LFR and the current normal mode. That new level of difficulty would be "Medium".

IMO 4 difficulty split the community too much. the real problem is the 3rd difficulty, i.e. heroic. normal is not tuned to the average wow player, with heroic mode reduced correspondly.

[Nobleshield]

The combination of HoF and Tot being unevenly and slightly over-tuned kill my casual 10m guild. It was a 1-2 punch.
Like other guilds of fun loving muggles we got jammed hard on elgion and then garalon. We were still stuck on Ambershaper by the time ToT was released. After 2 weeks of trying to figure out Horridon our attendence just wilted. People left out of frustration.

The number of people experiencing this kind of lends itself to the fact a bigger problem than the overall difficulty ramp-up is that the curve is too large between Jin'rokh and Horridon. As stated previously there needs to be several fairly easy bosses in a new raid (and hey that's incentive to make them larger than 7 or 8 bosses lol) so guilds like yours and mine can down a few, feel good, and work on the later (and harder) bosses without getting burned out wiping on an early boss and feeling dejected because of it. I'd take the same overall difficulty with gradually harder bosses (with a few easy ones spread throughout after a particularly challenging boss) as well. Right now it absolutely kills morale to down Jin'rokh and hit a wall on Horridon every week.

Like I said before, the ICC model was good enough because you were pretty much guaranteed to get at least to Saurfang, if not kill him. If Marrowgar had been as tough as Stone Guards were in T14, or how Horridon is now, guilds would have burned out in ICC as well.