Growing similarities between the USSR and USA (As told to me by 2 former Soviets)

[Sunseeker]

ask them if the way the US government ignores its own cinstitutional warrant requirements and habeas corpus provisions isn't reminiscent of the USSR.

That's a pretty loaded question. First we need to establish that the US government is ignoring Constitutional warrant requirements, then we need to separately establish if it's ignoring Habeas Corpus. We need to specify how and to whom these apply and if the US is applying them improperly. Then we need to determine the volume, scale and scope of these violations(if they are determined to exist). Only AFTER we've done that, can we go over to history and see if they are comparable to what the USSR did. And even if they were, we've got some pretty important disclaimers to cover first.

Further, and the reason I mentioned "history" above, is because personal perception of what's going on is not the same, nor even truly a valid measure, of what IS actually happening. I mean just because a half a dozen guys think the government is overstepping it's bounds and becoming like the USSR, does not actually mean that's happening.

[bobo333]

laize, looking through your history here on mmo, not one of your started posts have been about warcraft, or even game related. not one

[Dillon]

Government is the inevitable enemy of all forms of society.

laize, looking through your history here on mmo, not one of your started posts have been about warcraft, or even game related. not one

I don't think any of mine are either, but in the end it really doesn't matter, does it? Seeing as this is the off-topic section.

[Kasierith]

laize, looking through your history here on mmo, not one of your started posts have been about warcraft, or even game related. not one

This is the general off-topic forum. Any relevance to world of warcraft or other aspects of the gaming world is not required, and such posts are in fact referred to other areas of the forum.

[bobo333]

the million other boards out there, you choose mmo

Infracted - please post constructively

[Thage]

the million other boards out there, you choose mmo

For what it's worth, MMO-C posters on both sides of the political fence (and those on the fence and outside the yard entirely) tend to be a fair bit smarter than your average politiboard regulars. Both our liberals, conservatives, and everything inbetween like to do their own research rather than let their favorite TV news channel talk through their fingers and are at least moderately respectful of one another even during heated debates.

[Sunseeker]

the million other boards out there, you choose mmo

Which is IMO, one of the biggest boards on the internet and draws a diverse group of people and covers a wide range of subjects.

Maybe he just likes MMOs but doesn't like talking about them. WHO CARES. This is "Off-topic" where he's perfectly allowed to talk about things that aren't MMOs.

[Dillon]

This is the general off-topic forum. Any relevance to world of warcraft or other aspects of the gaming world is not required, and such posts are in fact referred to other areas of the forum.

I might also add that it is infinitely more fun to discuss things where you are held in minority opinion.

[Felya]

OK. Fair enough. Do me a favor then. Because I am open minded enough to admit when I've been proven wrong, I'm gonna ask you to please prove me wrong. Go to your parents and grandparents (both If possible. The USSR was quite different in the 40s compared to the 70s) and ask them if the way the US government ignores its own cinstitutional warrant requirements and habeas corpus provisions isn't reminiscent of the USSR.

My folks are birthers, because Russian television in US regurgitates right wing extremists. My dad complains about Obama being socialist, while complaining his social security check is too small. That should highlight the problem...

The only differences either Peter or Naum will acknowledge (it feels rude to continually call them "the former Soviets I know") is that the USSR would put on a show for the public to claim they were following the law... and in the US' case they outright state the law doesn't apply when they decide it doesn't.

You don't see the difference? USSR never had to say that they were investigating anyone. Such things as NDAA, would never happen in USSR, because there was no point. Like I pointed out already, the west did not know about a major famine for over 40 years. The fact that you can respond to me and complain about NDAA, should highlight the difference. There is open debate that happens in public. The next elections will have someone run who will claim to change it, with neither Rand or Ron Paul being shot. You can than vote for these people, without having to be fearful of going to jail.

Edit: My parents blame Clinton for me moving out 15 years ago...

[bobo333]

whatever. here in england we have rupert murdoch to spread propaganda, guess in the US it's a bit more 21st century. hope the kids learn to make up thier own minds though

[Felya]

whatever. here in england we have rupert murdoch to spread propaganda, guess in the US it's a bit more 21st century. hope the kids learn to make up thier own minds though

That's sly...

---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 09:11 PM ----------

This got off topic but I actually joined MMO after leaving WoW, only played a few days here and then after that. I still love WoW and it's story, but I joined MMO pretty much only for the off-topic discussions as well.

I cancelled wow last night... On the 26th will be my last day... With my authenticator dying, I think this might be it... Played from closed Beta, OG Bitches!!!

Edit: if I slowly go away from these boards, don't take it personally.

[Dillon]

You don't see the difference? USSR never had to say that they were investigating anyone. Such things as NDAA, would never happen in USSR, because there was no point. Like I pointed out already, the west did not know about a major famine for over 40 years. The fact that you can respond to me and complain about NDAA, should highlight the difference. There is open debate that happens in public. The next elections will have someone run who will claim to change it, with neither Rand or Ron Paul being shot. You can than vote for these people, without having to be fearful of going to jail.

I think that the difference is that there seems to be a growing fear among people of all political stripes in the US that we're heading in a direction we shouldn't be, politically; I mean to say that where we are going seems to be for the worse, when personal liberty is concerned.

panem et circenses, bread and circuses.

[Felya]

I think that the difference is that there seems to be a growing fear among people of all political stripes in the US that we're heading in a direction we shouldn't be, politically; I mean to say that where we are going seems to be for the worse, when personal liberty is concerned.

panem et circenses, bread and circuses.

I don't see it... Screams of Ave Imperator, morituri te salutant, with your party as the emperor.

[RaoBurning]

There was an episode a while back among the popular atheist YouTube users. They all started harping on one guy for some unknown act of transgression - all a ploy, of course, to see what the community would do. It was a very odd time for everyone.

I feel the same sort of social experiment vibe in this thread.

I guess the main difference between modern USA and old school USSR is that Gitmo is considerably smaller than the vast emptiness that is Siberia - where I assume political enemies and dissidents were sent to be raped by polar bears. Ergo, our ability to stifle opposition is much less than the USSR's.

[Laize]

That does, however, make me kind of surprised, however, that so many posts immediately, and I mean IMMEDIATELY, dismissed them outright. There's not much "Interesting to see they think that, but..." it's been more "they're wrong, here's why."

If someone in their 80s grew up in the USSR and left in their middle ages to come to the USA and say in their later years they see similarities, I'd at least be curious to ask them more about why they felt that way and what similarities they meant rather than dismissing it outright based on the fallacy arguments. Their experiences and observations have clearly led them to a conclusion; I'd be interested to understand the details more.

Plus, their seeing similarities doesn't mean they necessarily are stating "The US is becoming the USSR."


P.S.
Pshaw on your yellow tennis ball! It's a fake posing as a tennis ball!

In full disclosure "US Is becoming USSR" were the exact words Naum (the 70+ year old) used. It was only after I asked him to justify such a ludicrous statement that I found out about the Soviets' "malleable" Constitution and legal system.

After I went to Peter (the younger) and asked him if what "I had heard" about soviet rights and the state of US rights was true he said "absolutely".

The elder is a typical old guy who is quite set in his ways. He emigrated from the USSR (some smaller city in Russia I could never quite get the name of right) for political reasons. His English is... rough and my Russian is about as good as my Japanese (which is still an unfair comparison because having watched a lot of anime I pick up on words I understand from time to time. Russian is a more foreign language to me than Mandarin.) But I can get the gist of what he says. I'm not sure why he was allowed over prior to the USSR's dissolution but I have a feeling it had to do with perestroika. He's not old enough to have served in WW2 but old enough to remember Stalin. When he says "this is how the criminal justice system worked in the USSR" I tend to believe him especially since it jives with everything else I've ever heard about the USSR and international opinions of it (e.g. why would anyone defect to a nation where no one had rights? Answer: that much want obvious to anyone who believed their constitution). He's a pretty typical old guy with his prejudices (don't even get me started on him with Muslims and DEFINITELY NOT Chechnya. When he found out the Boston bombers were Chechnyan he about had a heart attack from rage) but when it comes to outright facts (as opposed to statistics or politics) I've never known him to be wrong.

Peter is a liberal. Came over in the early 90s from the Ukraine for economic reasons. His opinion of the USSR amounts to "they had a lot of good ideas and followed through on very few of them". He absolutely affirms the authoritarian nature of the US government's recent actions and acknowledges the parallels between them where they exist.

[Dillon]

There was an episode a while back among the popular atheist YouTube users. They all started harping on one guy for some unknown act of transgression - all a ploy, of course, to see what the community would do. It was a very odd time for everyone.

I feel the same sort of social experiment vibe in this thread.

I guess the main difference between modern USA and old school USSR is that Gitmo is considerably smaller than the vast emptiness that is Siberia - where I assume political enemies and dissidents were sent to be raped by polar bears. Ergo, our ability to stifle opposition is much less than the USSR's.

I don't see it... Screams of Ave Imperator, morituri te salutant, with your party as the emperor.

In the US, the establishment doesn't stifle opposition, it simply ignores it.

As for party, I barely have one. The only one that comes close to how I feel is the Libertarian party, and is what I registered as.

[Adam Jensen]

I do listen to him. Apparently he never means what he says.

Obama loves collectivist rhetoric which is in direct contrast to individualism.

He specifically said "the bridges, the roads, the support structure that allowed you to build your business, you didn't build that." It was pretty clear what he meant.

[Felya]

In the US, the establishment doesn't stifle opposition, it simply ignores it.

That's simply not true. You mean to tell me, opponents of Obama are ignored?

As for party, I barely have one. The only one that comes close to how I feel is the Libertarian party, and is what I registered as.

I'm sorry, side of the political spectrum would be more politically correct.

What I meant in that quote, in supporting the Patriot Act and the NDAA, folks are willing to lay on the knife that is put there by which ever side of the spectrum they subscribe to. It's people who are like my parents, who complain about socialist democrats and social security being to little.

[Dillon]

That's simply not true. You mean to tell me, opponents of Obama are ignored?



I'm sorry, side of the political spectrum would be more politically correct.

What I meant in that quote, in supporting the Patriot Act and the NDAA, folks are willing to lay on the knife that is put their by which ever side of the spectrum they subscribe to.

While Obama is a part of establishment politics, I don't consider the two to be synonymous. Republicans and Democrats are often two sides of the same big-government coin, a fact I detest so much that rarely do I find myself in support of someone from either of the two.

Both the Patriot Act and the NDAA are symptoms of the larger problem and so are the people who support either.

[Felya]

While Obama is a part of establishment politics, I don't consider the two to be synonymous. Republicans and Democrats are often two sides of the same big-government coin, a fact I detest so much that rarely do I find myself in support of someone from either of the two.

Both the Patriot Act and the NDAA are symptoms of the larger problem and so are the people who support either.

I'm saying that this larger problem, is what creates the distortion in which people can believe in something as ludicrous to me as, US turning into USSR. I think we have come to a sort of agreement. I like common ground.