View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

Voters
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  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #741
    Seriously. I get tired of this "increasing complexity" shit. Are you really that far into denial? Reality check. Raiders got worse, not raids harder. Raiding is as easy as it has ever been. I would actually say it is easier now than before.

    Please tell me which fight is that incredibly complex that it is miles beyond fights in previous expansions.
    Which fight has suffered from this armsrace between devs pushing their raiders?

    Lei-Shen N was a complete joke in comparison to other end bosses like Nefarian 10N, Cho'Gall 10N, LK10N, Yogg'Saron 10N.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #742
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    No we can't. We've had to sit players because they aren't up to snuff. WE helped them and supported them and tried desperately to work with them but as I said before the increasing complexity being created to cater to heroic raiders is unsustainable. It leaves older raiders who weren't as good but good enough for the relatively less complex mechanics (and player rotations) in the dust and more so than that it punishes NEW raiders who don't have a wealth of experience behind them. Not everybody is a super star, not everybody is cut out for this difficulty and they get let out in the cold because of it.

    Man you must think were some kind of fucking idiots. Were asking for appropriate content. Again all I read is denial. denial denial denial.
    I'm sorry if you think that but this is a player generated problem, not a design problem. The fights now are not inherently any harder than they were back during BC/Wrath or even late Vanilla. Heck some fights back then were harder than the current fights. The only thing that is different about ToT vs previous tiers is that you can't ignore mechanics except for a few glaring exceptions (Twins, Megaera, and Primo). The tradeoff is that there are no real hard dps or healing requirements for any of the fights which actually makes the tier more approachable from a gear standpoint.

    If you want a raid difficulty where you can ignore boss mechanics and still get gear you run LFR.

    Maybe they should make it so that you can "raid" a normal raid but at LFR difficulty but you still only get LFR drops. It would be a shared lockout with normal/heroic. You can do any boss on normal difficulty if you like but to do heroic you must clear it all on normal. That way ppl can still get gear if they like, it just won't be normal gear. If they want better drops they need to learn normal mode.

  3. #743
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    Just reading the title of this thread, there barely is a gap between normal and LFR as far as difficulty goes.
    This is obviously not the case. The developers are saying this is not the case. How are you reaching this ridiculously wrong conclusion?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  4. #744
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    No we can't. We've had to sit players because they aren't up to snuff. WE helped them and supported them and tried desperately to work with them but as I said before the increasing complexity being created to cater to heroic raiders is unsustainable. It leaves older raiders who weren't as good but good enough for the relatively less complex mechanics (and player rotations) in the dust and more so than that it punishes NEW raiders who don't have a wealth of experience behind them. Not everybody is a super star, not everybody is cut out for this difficulty and they get let out in the cold because of it.

    Man you must think were some kind of fucking idiots. Were asking for appropriate content. Again all I read is denial. denial denial denial.
    Then you should accept the fact that you just ain't good enough. Dumbing down content is not the answer. What about next time you hit a brick wall? A new rading model once again? Sorry, but your logic is flawed. LFR is created for you to enjoy the content.
    Last edited by Kreeb; 2013-05-26 at 02:53 AM.

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    then current normals to be heroics and if hardcores or the tiny minority of players (for whom current content is approrpriate for) leaves then that's the cost of doing business. Somehow I doubt they will leave, their to hooked on the game anyway.
    It is worth noting that this game as it is has just about the highest quality raid content on the market. That is one of the flagships separating it from the rest and an attraction in itself. Losing the current heroic difficulty would most likely affect the public image of the game negatively.

    A lot of player-created content such as add-ons, guides, and websites is also often born out of the needs, desires, and efforts of the high-end demographics. I hate to speculate with this, but I would further expect that a majority of the bunch would give up on the game if they lost the content aimed at them. Some would of course switch to PvP or go 'casual'.

    I don't see losing all this and more as being a healthy choice. Considering that most of the designs are shared with LFR and normal, the extra effort required in order to create the heroic content is probably not as big a share of the cake as you think it is. If it was necessary, I would rather shift some resources into the creation of a new alternative than remove one of the old ones.

  6. #746
    Just for fun I wanted to check how big this "minority" of hardcore raiders is.
    I count 25 man guilds as 2.5 guilds because they get 250% more players.
    Will present numbers as say 10 (2/5) means 10 'guilds', two 25 man and five 10 mans.
    Checking on my realm:

    Guilds above 10/13HC: 13 (4/3)
    Guilds between 6/13 and 9/13HC: 7 (2/2)
    Guilds between 12/12N and 5/13HC: 45.5 (3/38)
    Guilds between 6/12N and 11/12N: 24.5 (1/22)
    Guilds between 2/12N and 5/12N: 22 (0/22)
    Guilds at 1/12N: 24 (0/24)

    Guilds in heroic content: 65.5 (9/43)
    Guilds in normal content: 70.5 (1/68)

    What to notice here is that there are a lot of 'ghost guilds' between 1/12N and 12/12N, guilds that do not exist anymore. Just checking through those guilds the guilds that are actually still raiding in normal content is about half, around 30. One of those 'ghost guilds' is the pug my alt is running in that is 11/12N, that is not a guild, just a pug yet registers at 11/12N.
    So there is probably around 60 guilds in heroic content and 30 in normal content (counting 25 mans as 2.5 guilds to compensate for the increased players)

    But what we get from this? The average guild is actually between 12/12N to 5/13HC.

    So sorry Leonard. I am not in the minority. A majority of the raiding guilds are clearing normals. The people not doing so are the minority.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-05-26 at 03:16 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #747
    Legendary! Thelxi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    This is obviously not the case. The developers are saying this is not the case. How are you reaching this ridiculously wrong conclusion?
    Please show me a blue quote pointing out how big the gap is between LFR and normals. Go on I'll wait

    How do I reach the conclusion that LFR and normals are not that far apart in difficulty? having done ToT on all difficulties. It is very obvious that the gap between LFR and normals is substantially smaller than the gap between normals and heroics.

    The above is not echoed in ilvls (20 and 13), which was my point to begin with

  8. #748
    Normal is as easy as its always been O.o

  9. #749
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    Please show me a blue quote pointing out how big the gap is between LFR and normals. Go on I'll wait
    The devs would not be talking about the issue if there was "barely a gap".

    One also need only count the number of people who raided in Wrath, vs. the number doing normal mode raiding now (and who haven't given up). The difference is large.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 03:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Definition View Post
    Normal is as easy as its always been O.o
    Obviously not.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Obviously not.
    True it is easier now than before.



    You have not stopped to consider that the devs do not think the problem is the 'gap' (since it does not exist). As Thelxi mentioned, the gap between N and HC is larger than LFR and N. Maybe the Devs think the problem is the raiding model in itself?
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You have not stopped to consider that the devs do not think the problem is the 'gap' (since it does not exist).
    Wow. Let's go back to the MMO-C news recap, folks. What did Ion H. say? (Emphasis added)

    There is a group of players that wants to do group raiding, but they aren't well served by the current difficulty choices. This would include the friends and family type guilds that don't remove players because they aren't performing at their best. In Wrath of the Lich King, 10 player normal difficulty raiding served these players well, but there is now a gap between Raid Finder and Normal difficulty.
    Looks like Ion H. says you're delusional.

    BTW, in today's tweets, GC is hinting that the reason raids were tuned this way was to try to keep the previous tier relevant. Nerfed T14 was supposed to fill the gap. His phrasing suggests this didn't work. Not surprising; it didn't work in the T11/T12 transition either (slightly different context of course; no LFR at that time).
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-05-26 at 03:54 AM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  12. #752
    I must be mad.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    BTW, in today's tweets, GC is hinting that the reason raids were tuned this way was to try to keep the previous tier relevant. Nerfed T14 was supposed to fill the gap. His phrasing suggests this didn't work. Not surprising; it didn't work in the T11/T12 transition either (slightly different context of course; no LFR at that time).
    If they nerfed it a lot more then 10% and it gave better gear then LFR people would do it (good example is ToT when ICC was out, people still did it even though ICC was current ... well till ICC buff got crazy high in stacks. It was a stupid idea to make LFR give better gear, easier to do, easier to setup, and can be done at anytime and anyplace and you can join/leave whenever you want to ... there is no upside to doing the previous tier.

  14. #754
    To quote the stats from my realm that I posted earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I count 25 man guilds as 2.5 guilds because they get 250% more players.
    Will present numbers as say 10 (2/5) means 10 'guilds', two 25 man and five 10 mans.
    Checking on my realm:

    Guilds above 10/13HC: 13 (4/3)
    Guilds between 6/13 and 9/13HC: 7 (2/2)
    Guilds between 12/12N and 5/13HC: 45.5 (3/38)
    Guilds between 6/12N and 11/12N: 24.5 (1/22)
    Guilds between 2/12N and 5/12N: 22 (0/22)
    Guilds at 1/12N: 24 (0/24)

    Guilds in heroic content: 65.5 (9/43)
    Guilds in normal content: 70.5 (1/68)

    What to notice here is that there are a lot of 'ghost guilds' between 1/12N and 12/12N, guilds that do not exist anymore. Just checking through those guilds the guilds that are actually still raiding in normal content is about half, around 30. One of those 'ghost guilds' is the pug my alt is running in that is 11/12N, that is not a guild, just a pug yet registers at 11/12N.
    Basically making 6 kill boss intervals. The place where the players are stack is between entry level heroics and late heroics. This suggests that the biggest gap in difficulty is between normal/early heroics to late heroics. Taking ghost guilds into consideration the early normals is where the least guilds are "stuck". More guilds make it into heroic content than dont, which suggest that the gap is between N and H, not in early N.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #755
    ToT LFR should have been under 496 ilvl so nerfed T14 would have remained relevant.

  16. #756
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Yes it is. They fail to provide appropriate options with appropriate difficulty. Even if you say it isn't and you plug your ears and stand up and down and scream lalalalla and ignore it the players still leave. If they want to salvage any of their business changes are coming. End of story?
    lol, sounds like you are the one that's plugging your ears. Statistics? Where are these statistics? I think it would be kinda hard to have stats on things like heroic challenge modes considering they just came out.... but let's see them. And how do you know that heroic challenge modes don't provide the appropriate difficulty? How can you speak for everyone else? lol

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 05:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    It stops when the content is no longer providing enough push back to be appealing. Tthat's the whole fucking point.
    Wait a minute lol, I thought that they didn't like normal because "the mechanics were too crazy hard" even for tier 14 right now, and now "LFR doesn't provide enough push back".... so you want something that's challenging but really easy at the same time? Makes a whole lot of sense lol.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 05:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post

    There is a difference between being a small group among many strangers among different realms and having a small group of friends that can control the pace that a group is going. Have you ever played with friends or players you have befriended in WoW?
    Who hasn't played with buddies? The thing is, you can still group up with friends in LFR. As for controlling the pace, you can definitely do that in LFR too if you and your buddies are running it.

  17. #757
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    lol, sounds like you are the one that's plugging your ears. Statistics? Where are these statistics?
    Well, there are the public stats from tracking sites on raid participation. If you doubt those, we have the following confirmation from GC that raid participation (outside LFR) is down, and he doesn't think it's due to LFR stealing raiders.

    waltteri wiikinkoski ‏@pisuri
    @Ghostcrawler Raiding in its current form has lost its niche among the players but i might be wrong. I mean from player participation %

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @pisuri Our numbers don't look very different. I am sure LFR stole some folks from 10s, but overall my suspicion is most didn't raid before.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  18. #758
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    BTW, in today's tweets, GC is hinting that the reason raids were tuned this way was to try to keep the previous tier relevant. Nerfed T14 was supposed to fill the gap. His phrasing suggests this didn't work. Not surprising; it didn't work in the T11/T12 transition either (slightly different context of course; no LFR at that time).
    There's always been a gap between normal mode and LFR, just like there's been a gap between arena and bg's, and normal 5 mans, challenge modes, and heroics.... different difficulties will do that. The thing is now, with 5.3, there's plenty of content for those that are up to par with normal modes but want to do LFR, they can run tier 14, northern barrens, challenge modes, and heroic scenarios. I don't see any chance this easy mode raid thing will come into being, but I guess time will tell.

  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    There's always been a gap between normal mode and LFR, just like there's been a gap between arena and bg's, and normal 5 mans, challenge modes, and heroics.... different difficulties will do that. The thing is now, with 5.3, there's plenty of content for those that are up to par with normal modes but want to do LFR, they can run tier 14, northern barrens, challenge modes, and heroic scenarios. I don't see any chance this easy mode raid thing will come into being, but I guess time will tell.
    Yes, there is always a gap. What the devs are telling us is that a significant (and presumably sizable) chunk of the player population, the casual guilds who won't kick their friends, fell right into this gap. In other words, the raid design has malfunctioned in a way that the devs are highlighting, presumably because they find the problem serious enough that they feel they need to fix it.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  20. #760
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Well, there are the public stats from tracking sites on raid participation. If you doubt those, we have the following confirmation from GC that raid participation (outside LFR) is down, and he doesn't think it's due to LFR stealing raiders.

    waltteri wiikinkoski ‏@pisuri
    @Ghostcrawler Raiding in its current form has lost its niche among the players but i might be wrong. I mean from player participation %

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @pisuri Our numbers don't look very different. I am sure LFR stole some folks from 10s, but overall my suspicion is most didn't raid before.
    Do we know why those numbers are lowered? Did LFR bore these people into quitting? Are they pvping instead? Are these people still playing, but just different content?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 05:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Yes, there is always a gap. What the devs are telling us is that a significant (and presumably sizable) chunk of the player population, the casual guilds who won't kick their friends, fell right into this gap. In other words, the raid design has malfunctioned in a way that the devs are highlighting, presumably because they find the problem serious enough that they feel they need to fix it.
    Agreed, there are definitely some out there, and I think 5.3 is definitely the right way to go. When you think about it, easy mode is self contradictory, if LFR is boring you, why would you want another mode that will essentially bore you as well? Perhaps these people don't want to raid but since it drops the best gear, we should give them ways to gear up aside from raiding - this is what 5.3 is doing, I think it's way better then putting people into something they clearly don't enjoy doing in the first place.

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