How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[clevin]

LFR Heroic wouldn't exacerbate anything. The gear would be only slightly higher than LFR, but under Normal and with it's shared lockout with Normal/Heroics it wouldn't make ilvls go up anymore than they already are.

The point is that LFR is not actual fun content. It's a compromise for some people to see content that they otherwise would never see and progress their characters a bit via lesser loot. LFR Heroic would be Normal mode nerfed a bit to allow casual guilds who want to raid but just hit a brick wall in Normal to actually have a difficulty for them that doesn't involve getting rid of members who aren't performing as much. It would also help with PuGing and alt gearing a bit.

In then end, there's no real negative to it, and it allows friends and family guilds to have content adapted for them instead of waiting for the Tier to be over so the raids get nerfed and they can THEN start progressing. So there is no rational argument agaisnt an LFR Heroic beyond you feeling that it's wrong.

A heroic LFR doesn't solve the problem. Come on people, read the interview so you at least grasp the issue. The audience we're talking about still want to raid as a group for the social aspect, they just don't want to have to choose between moving ahead in the instance and playing with a good friend who's not cutting it. LFR fails at providing them with the social environment that a regular raid gives so it's not a solution to thy actual problem Blizzard feels is out there.

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 10:28 AM ----------

And for what? To create a level that nobody needs? If you're not good enough to cut it in normals (which were perhaps admittedly overtuned, even though they were still really, really easy), then you have LFR. If you're in LFR, what do you need better gear for? It can be done in 480, and gives 502. Get full 502 and wait for next tier. Sound heartless? It's the EXACT SAME AS REAL RAIDING PROGRESSION. Top guilds did normals/heroics in first week(s) in the gear from last tier, now have max gear from this tier, and just wait til next patch. Weird how it's fine for them (and pretty much anyone else still progressing) but not for the LFR crowd?

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 05:07 PM ----------



You missed the entirety of my post, even though I bolded it for you.

Giving a 10man version of LFR that allows you to go in AS A PREMADE GROUP with your guild (in this case, the guild of ppl carrying subpar firends/family) and progress IS the solution. Removal of the stacking buff means that they have to actually do the encounters, and as a reward, they are given loot commensurate with the challenge (the same 502 LFR gear) that they can distribute as they see fit (instead of being subject to RNG rolls).

How is that not the exact solution you're asking for, far more simply and elegantly implemented than creating a whole new level of "difficulty", gear, and logistics?

Ah, sorry. I saw "10 man LFR" and my eyes skipped over the premade part since LFR != premade (by definition LF implies a random group). But yes, we're basically talking the same thing though I disagree with your comment about a tier nobody needs. I think the entire issue is that some people DO need it. Whether there are a lot of them or not is up for debate.

[Nobleshield]

Jesus Christ we don't need another difficulty. Having normal/heroic is bad enough (LFR doesn't count). Less segregation, not more!

[Nairobi]

Here we go...

LFR Heroic wouldn't exacerbate anything. The gear would be only slightly higher than LFR, but under Normal and with it's shared lockout with Normal/Heroics it wouldn't make ilvls go up anymore than they already are.

So, in this tier, it'd be an extra "level" of items at 502+8 or 522-8? Is it going to have TF monikers? If you get a TF-normal-EZ piece, is that the same as a regular normal piece? Can you upgrade that in 5.3 to be better than normal loot? It's not going to inflate ilvls, on that you are correct. What it WILL do, is convolute the already overly complex system that is unbalanced by Blizz standards, and needlessly so. Normals are tuned so lax that if you can't beat them with 502 gear, you're not going to all of a sudden beat them just cause you have 510s. However, if you tune the loot drops in this suggestion of yours to be too high, like 522-8 (+8 for upgrades/TF), then you just simply overgear the encounter, leading to...

The point is that LFR is not actual fun content. It's a compromise for some people to see content that they otherwise would never see and progress their characters a bit via lesser loot. LFR Heroic would be Normal mode nerfed a bit to allow casual guilds who want to raid but just hit a brick wall in Normal to actually have a difficulty for them that doesn't involve getting rid of members who aren't performing as much. It would also help with PuGing and alt gearing a bit.

A copy of LFR. LFR isn't fun for a variety of reasons. One big one is that there is no challenge or fear of failure (outside of the fact that you cant control the people in the group). The hardest mechanics in LFR are the 24 other people you get grouped with. It's designed to be done with minimal gear and little-to-no coordination. That's not fun nor challenging, I get that. But giving an easy-mode Normal that drops damn-near normal mode loot means you'll be back to that same position of overgearing mechanics. Instead of introducing all of that needless clutter, just make LFR available as a 10man version, with assignable loot and no stacking buff, for the premise of catering to these guilds that are stuck between the 2 "levels". No new gear levels, no new balance/tuning time, no new art/recoloring. Far more efficient, easier to implement, and sensical.

In then end, there's no real negative to it, and it allows friends and family guilds to have content adapted for them instead of waiting for the Tier to be over so the raids get nerfed and they can THEN start progressing. So there is no rational argument agaisnt an LFR Heroic beyond you feeling that it's wrong.

Yeah, well, that's just like...your opinion, man. Seems to be a LOT of opinions presented as fact in R&D recently, which needs to stop. Just saying there is no argument against something doesn't mean there isn't. And it's pretty overwhelmingly clear from this thread alone that there IS a large argument against "fixing" this "problem" that a lot of us don't even see.

[clevin]

Jesus Christ I don't need another difficulty. Having normal/heroic is bad enough (LFR doesn't count). Less segregation, not more!

FTFY. You != Everyone.

[Shahad]

A heroic LFR doesn't solve the problem. Come on people, read the interview so you at least grasp the issue. The audience we're talking about still want to raid as a group for the social aspect, they just don't want to have to choose between moving ahead in the instance and playing with a good friend who's not cutting it. LFR fails at providing them with the social environment that a regular raid gives so it's not a solution to thy actual problem Blizzard feels is out there.

The LFR Heroic would be a premade 10 or 25-man group. Must have forgot to specify that. Althought I think the "Normal mode but nerfed by 10%" part was clear enough and implied premade group and regular loot rolls.

[Halicia]

This may be nostalgia speaking, but I've always been fine with the merged lockouts & loot tables.

A big part of that though, was that they promised that content would be coming faster, so this would replace the need for separate 'easy 10man' lockouts to gear up and learn from. This has never happened, so instead those raiders who are finding 10 & 25man too tricky, are left with nothing but LFR, which doesnt equate to progression or skill, so much as flipping a coin and waiting an hour to see if you got anything this week.

If Blizzard simply can't deliver on faster raiding content, then I'd be in favor of returning raids to separate 10 & 25man lockouts of different difficulty & itemlevels.

In addition to closing the LFR gap, this might restore some of the prestige of 25man raids & open up communities a little more again on certain servers like mine, where pugs havent been seen since Wrath.

[hanketsu]

You lost me at the "10m was easier than 25m in LK."
So, TL;DR
Leave it the way it is.
There is nothing Blizzard can do to convince casuals to run anything further than LFR. Just dumb down LFR a little more again and let the casuals have their welfare gear.
The rest of us are happy with normal and heroic difficulties. I really don't understand why it is some people can't friggin leave "well enough" alone.

[Ninotchka]

Part of the problem is that people in heroic mode who really shouldn't need anything from LFR are being forced into it by the legendary quest. They get frustrated at people of average ability who don't read up on the encounters, toxicity levels rise and create that wonderful LFR community experience that drives normal people who just want to hang out and kill monsters away as fast as they can click 'drop group'.

Beer league and LFR should not drop legendary items, tier tokens, or trinkets.

It would be nice if they had increased valor and they dropped lesser charms, however.

Then I'd run a beer league pug or an LFR when I was bored and felt like raiding and hanging out and wanted to valor cap. I wouldn't feel forced to do it and I'd have a better attitude towards the people I was grouped with.

[isadorr]

The poll of course has no spot to click, normals are not hard learn to play your class.

[Shahad]

So, in this tier, it'd be an extra "level" of items at 502+8 or 522-8? Is it going to have TF monikers? If you get a TF-normal-EZ piece, is that the same as a regular normal piece? Can you upgrade that in 5.3 to be better than normal loot? It's not going to inflate ilvls, on that you are correct. What it WILL do, is convolute the already overly complex system that is unbalanced by Blizz standards, and needlessly so. Normals are tuned so lax that if you can't beat them with 502 gear, you're not going to all of a sudden beat them just cause you have 510s. However, if you tune the loot drops in this suggestion of yours to be too high, like 522-8 (+8 for upgrades/TF), then you just simply overgear the encounter, leading to...

A copy of LFR. LFR isn't fun for a variety of reasons. One big one is that there is no challenge or fear of failure (outside of the fact that you cant control the people in the group). The hardest mechanics in LFR are the 24 other people you get grouped with. It's designed to be done with minimal gear and little-to-no coordination. That's not fun nor challenging, I get that. But giving an easy-mode Normal that drops damn-near normal mode loot means you'll be back to that same position of overgearing mechanics. Instead of introducing all of that needless clutter, just make LFR available as a 10man version, with assignable loot and no stacking buff, for the premise of catering to these guilds that are stuck between the 2 "levels". No new gear levels, no new balance/tuning time, no new art/recoloring. Far more efficient, easier to implement, and sensical.

I said gear that was slightly better than LFR. Which implies at most an 8 ilvl increase. This invalidates a good part of your post.
Making LFR have a 10-man version(which implies non-lethal bipassable mechanics will require tuning time, possibly more than making an Easy mode/LFR Heroic(which would just be Normal mode with nerfed damage requirements).
No need for new art or new coloring in any of the two solutions we're presenting. Plus, recoloring is pretty damn trivial and wouldn't matter anyway.

Now, I feel the need to point out that both what we're saying has the same goal: offering content for families and friends groups. It's just my solution offers an added carrot on the stick with slightly better gear than LFR and the option of super-casual 25-mans. And has the added benefit of not locking LFR raiders out of Normal mode like your shared lockout idea implies.

Yeah, well, that's just like...your opinion, man. Seems to be a LOT of opinions presented as fact in R&D recently, which needs to stop. Just saying there is no argument against something doesn't mean there isn't. And it's pretty overwhelmingly clear from this thread alone that there IS a large argument against "fixing" this "problem" that a lot of us don't even see.

A lot of people not seeing this problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I know a few guilds who are doomed to being one Tier behind everyone else because they won't kick bads out and it's not fun for them. Essentially, an LFR Heroic/Easy Mode difficulty wouldn't affect anyone doing Normal raids and above and would just help PuGs and these lower-end guilds. And I've yet to see anyone present an actual negative to this, beyond perhaps the more complex gear tiering paradigm, which to me is a non-issue since it still doesn't affect anyone.

[isadorr]

LFR Heroic wouldn't exacerbate anything. The gear would be only slightly higher than LFR, but under Normal and with it's shared lockout with Normal/Heroics it wouldn't make ilvls go up anymore than they already are.

The point is that LFR is not actual fun content. It's a compromise for some people to see content that they otherwise would never see and progress their characters a bit via lesser loot. LFR Heroic would be Normal mode nerfed a bit to allow casual guilds who want to raid but just hit a brick wall in Normal to actually have a difficulty for them that doesn't involve getting rid of members who aren't performing as much. It would also help with PuGing and alt gearing a bit.

In then end, there's no real negative to it, and it allows friends and family guilds to have content adapted for them instead of waiting for the Tier to be over so the raids get nerfed and they can THEN start progressing. So there is no rational argument agaisnt an LFR Heroic beyond you feeling that it's wrong.

Get better at the game. bro. It really isnt that hard and looking at logs, i can see a ton of places where massive improvements could be made. That was a hard one to figure out.

You dont need a easier level, you need to be better.

[Frolk]

How to handle the gap? make LFR harder or IMPROVE YOUR SKILLS, either way is fine

[isadorr]

I said gear that was slightly better than LFR. Which implies at most an 8 ilvl increase. This invalidates a good part of your post.
Making LFR have a 10-man version(which implies non-lethal bipassable mechanics will require tuning time, possibly more than making an Easy mode/LFR Heroic(which would just be Normal mode with nerfed damage requirements).
No need for new art or new coloring in any of the two solutions we're presenting. Plus, recoloring is pretty damn trivial and wouldn't matter anyway.

Now, I feel the need to point out that both what we're saying has the same goal: offering content for families and friends groups. It's just my solution offers an added carrot on the stick with slightly better gear than LFR and the option of super-casual 25-mans. And has the added benefit of not locking LFR raiders out of Normal mode like your shared lockout idea implies.



A lot of people not seeing this problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I know a few guilds who are doomed to being one Tier behind everyone else because they won't kick bads out and it's not fun for them. Essentially, an LFR Heroic/Easy Mode difficulty wouldn't affect anyone doing Normal raids and above and would just help PuGs and these lower-end guilds. And I've yet to see anyone present an actual negative to this, beyond perhaps the more complex gear tiering paradigm, which to me is a non-issue since it still doesn't affect anyone.

I dont know if you realize this but TOT is cleared weekly on one night by pugs/alts in lesser gear. Making another lol level again doesnt make a player improve, and YOU want to reward people for being bad.

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 05:58 PM ----------

How to handle the gap? make LFR harder or IMPROVE YOUR SKILLS, either way is fine

I tried that one in one of the hundreds of whiny threads about Normal lolz mode being too hard. They dont have the time yet i look up peoples toons and they have farmed pets(ya that helps your raiding), Mounts(did that raise your dps/hps?), and old raids(gearing up?). How can people whine about difficulty when they arent even maximizing their game play?

How can blizzard tune around I R 2 buzy dewing pet farming to learn how to play my toon?

[Shahad]

Get better at the game. bro. It really isnt that hard and looking at logs, i can see a ton of places where massive improvements could be made. That was a hard one to figure out.

You dont need a easier level, you need to be better.

Get your head out of your arse, bro. It know Normals aren't hard and I'm not speaking for myself when I advocate something in between LFR and Normal. I'm just being empathic to guilds who are having even more issues. Shocking, I know.

[isadorr]

Here we go...



So, in this tier, it'd be an extra "level" of items at 502+8 or 522-8? Is it going to have TF monikers? If you get a TF-normal-EZ piece, is that the same as a regular normal piece? Can you upgrade that in 5.3 to be better than normal loot? It's not going to inflate ilvls, on that you are correct. What it WILL do, is convolute the already overly complex system that is unbalanced by Blizz standards, and needlessly so. Normals are tuned so lax that if you can't beat them with 502 gear, you're not going to all of a sudden beat them just cause you have 510s. However, if you tune the loot drops in this suggestion of yours to be too high, like 522-8 (+8 for upgrades/TF), then you just simply overgear the encounter, leading to...



A copy of LFR. LFR isn't fun for a variety of reasons. One big one is that there is no challenge or fear of failure (outside of the fact that you cant control the people in the group). The hardest mechanics in LFR are the 24 other people you get grouped with. It's designed to be done with minimal gear and little-to-no coordination. That's not fun nor challenging, I get that. But giving an easy-mode Normal that drops damn-near normal mode loot means you'll be back to that same position of overgearing mechanics. Instead of introducing all of that needless clutter, just make LFR available as a 10man version, with assignable loot and no stacking buff, for the premise of catering to these guilds that are stuck between the 2 "levels". No new gear levels, no new balance/tuning time, no new art/recoloring. Far more efficient, easier to implement, and sensical.



Yeah, well, that's just like...your opinion, man. Seems to be a LOT of opinions presented as fact in R&D recently, which needs to stop. Just saying there is no argument against something doesn't mean there isn't. And it's pretty overwhelmingly clear from this thread alone that there IS a large argument against "fixing" this "problem" that a lot of us don't even see.

LFR isn't fun because there is so much carrying, which is another reason bad guilds have a hard time recruiting making Tot harder. Trying to recruit a good player and they tell the player they are a raiding guild and want to progress, then he raids with them and is like WTF r u doing. People in the raid that shouldnt be, bad dps/hps/ and standing in fire all over the raid. He asks why are these people in the raid and he says they are my friends im not going to kick them as the good players leaves the guild.

You dont need another lol easy level, people need to understand the difference between a raiding guild and a casual social hangout guild which a large majority of self proclaimed raiding guilds really are.

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 06:03 PM ----------

Get your head out of your arse, bro. It know Normals aren't hard and I'm not speaking for myself when I advocate something in between LFR and Normal. I'm just being empathic to guilds who are having even more issues. Shocking, I know.

Saw you havent downed Lein SHen normal, and in your post you said people in normals hitting a brick wall.

[Shahad]

Saw you havent downed Lein SHen normal, and in your post you said people in normals hitting a brick wall.

We started our first Lei-shen attempts last week. After our Main Tank went of break for a month and we had to lose three of our best DPS because they had stuff do to with school. And we got Lei-Shen to 3% last night, hardly a brick wall. Add to that Ravenholdt's low-pop making recruiting a nightmare, and our low progress kinda makes sense.

And I'd like to point out that this is completely irrelevant and borderline an ad hominem attack. Point it, some guilds are feeling left out of current content because of the increase in difficutly form DS to MoP raids(which is healthy for the game) and could use the Easy mode. It matches Blizzard's pholosophy of making content for everyone, and doesn't affect Normal raiders and up negatively.

[isadorr]

Have you any idea of how condescending that statement is? ToT normal is absolutely basic for the top 1% of players maybe - people who have put thousands of hours of effort into their game to elevate themselves to that level, but certainly not for most people.

In my guild, a genuinely casual guild, there are at most 3 of us who are up to the task of participating in ToT normal progression. The rest of the guys simply don't play enough to get the gear or the skill necessary to down the first boss, let alone waltz through the place.

There is absolutely a gap. In ICC you had 4 levels of difficulty that a group of people could participate in. 10 man normal, 25 man normal, 10 man hc, 25 man hc. Now you have basically 2 difficulties, normal an heroic.

LFR is an easier difficulty level, but it isn't ideal for small guilds of casuals who want something at that difficulty level, but who don't want to join a LFR group.


Now whether or not this is a serious problem, I don't know. We are fine doing T14 raids which are at about the level our guild can collectively handle. However it was a bit of an issue, and frustrating for the entire guild at the start of MoP. I am a bit divided on my response to our own situation. I could have got cross at my friends for not being as organised as I was. I could have left my guild and found a group at my level and cleared T14 and a few Heroic modes. Or I could have stuck it out with my friends (which is what I did).

I accept that it was my decision and that if it was that important for me to progress through T14 at my potential, I could have chosen to do so. I accept that my friends have only themselves to blame for not being able to make progress in T14 because they never put in the needed work.

That being said, WoW is a game. I think that my friends would have enjoyed T14 a lot more if there had been some 10 man content tuned to their level of play which we could have done as a group. Something at the difficulty (and reward) level of LFR but without being grouped with 15 strangers.

Although I would personally prefer to progress through 10 man normal then onto heroic content myself, the more I think about it, the more I would support the idea of a 10 man difficulty setting at the equivalent level of LFR, with the same loot table as LFR, sharing a lockout with normal/heroic.

It really shouldn't be that difficult for the devs to tune it, because it would have the same subset of mechanics as LFR, and the damage/hp of bosses would be reduced by the same ratio from 10 man normal as LFR is from 25 man normal. All the loot is already made, so they don't have to do anything there. Sharing a lockout with normal/heroic is fine. It's there for guilds and pugs who aren't running normal/heroic anyway, and you don't want to "force" normal/heroic raiders to run the easy mode as well.

How is a boss fight that is scripted not basic? Do your friends play at a lower mental capacity than yourself or do they not understand each pull will be the same as the last? I am not attempting to be condescending but trying to get my point through. We clear Tot weekly with alts/pugs so it isnt the problem of not having enough time like you mentioned.

You are talking about rewarding people for logging in. Not getting better at their class which would help them everyday in Wow but to just make it easier instead of getting better, does that sound constructive?

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 06:11 PM ----------

We started our first Lei-shen attempts last week. After our Main Tank went of break for a month and we had to lose three of our best DPS because they had stuff do to with school. And we got Lei-Shen to 3% last night, hardly a brick wall. Add to that Ravenholdt's low-pop making recruiting a nightmare, and our low progress kinda makes sense.

I didnt say anything negative about your progression, I stated that you mentioned people hitting brick walls in normal mode and saw you hadnt cleared normals, so i assumed you could possibly be talking about yourself.

Even on higher pop. realms recruiting sucks as the amount of good player in the whole game is incredibly low, we pay for server transfers, faction changes just to get a good player. So i know your pain of going through applications of people that cleared content with massive nerfs, thinking they are really good raiders then find out once we trial them, they arent.

[Shahad]

I didnt say anything negative about your progression, I stated that you mentioned people hitting brick walls in normal mode and saw you hadnt cleared normals, so i assumed you could possibly be talking about yourself.

Even on higher pop. realms recruiting sucks as the amount of good player in the whole game is incredibly low, we pay for server transfers, faction changes just to get a good player. So i know your pain of going through applications of people that cleared content with massive nerfs, thinking they are really good raiders then find out once we trial them, they arent.

It's not even that. There are NO apps. Earlier we've had to call nights because a couple people didn't show and we don't have anyone to replace them.

[isadorr]

We started our first Lei-shen attempts last week. After our Main Tank went of break for a month and we had to lose three of our best DPS because they had stuff do to with school. And we got Lei-Shen to 3% last night, hardly a brick wall. Add to that Ravenholdt's low-pop making recruiting a nightmare, and our low progress kinda makes sense.

And I'd like to point out that this is completely irrelevant and borderline an ad hominem attack. Point it, some guilds are feeling left out of current content because of the increase in difficutly form DS to MoP raids(which is healthy for the game) and could use the Easy mode. It matches Blizzard's pholosophy of making content for everyone, and doesn't affect Normal raiders and up negatively.

It already has affected the player base which is why recruiting good players is so difficult. Nerfed content rewards a bad player for being bad. LFR is there for them and normal mode is for the average raider,"normal" as in average, level content is there for others who cant do heroic.

So we add another level of LFR or easy raiding to a already diluted player base only worsening the player base talent level. Challenges are there to push people to become better players, if they dont want to then they have LFR. Why would any player even talk about progression if they dont want to put any effort into it?

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 06:18 PM ----------

It's not even that. There are NO apps. Earlier we've had to call nights because a couple people didn't show and we don't have anyone to replace them.

Lol all of the progression is by horde, which isnt much progression either and alliance is horrible on that server. Server transfer is the only thing that is going to fix that mess.

[Paarthurnax]

I liked the ICC method, sure it was ALLOT of content to clear if you were going all out on it but it allowed for much faster normal mode clears, and allowed for that kind of early pug content that we desperately need now. It may also help give the 25 man raiding scene a much needed infusion.

LFR isn't true raiding and doesn't FEEL like true raiding, especially when everyone is only ever looking out for themselves and no one else. In a pug everyone is working together towards a goal for more then just a few bosses. The difference in the experience is night and day.