How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[Hulari]

If they did this guess how easy the raids would be? Pretty fucking easy by and large. In that respect I do agree with this idea. It would basically force the issue and make the raid piss easy.

Not really, they don't need to cater down and make the raid easy. They should make multiple wing raids that get progressively harder. If people get stuck halfway through the raid then so-be-it. If blizzard change the way loot is distributed in a raid they can make it so people can get geared from the easier bosses. Let's face it.. most raiders these days only care about the loot so it'll be a win win.

[Firebert]

If they did this guess how easy the raids would be? Pretty fucking easy by and large. In that respect I do agree with this idea. It would basically force the issue and make the raid piss easy.

Split the current tier into 3 wings, the first third has difficulty of LFR first boss (Stone Guards) to last (Lei Shen), the middle third as Normal difficulty, and the last third as Heroic difficulty, and the vast majority of the population will understand that they're never going to clear the raid.

[Glorious Leader]

Not really, they don't need to cater down and make the raid easy. They should make multiple wing raids that get progressively harder. If people get stuck halfway through the raid then so-be-it. If blizzard change the way loot is distributed in a raid they can make it so people can get geared from the easier bosses. Let's face it.. most raiders these days only care about the loot so it'll be a win win.

Which would still be much easier than ToT. by far actually when you consider how many folks are stuck on horridon and the developers themselves have said that fight had to much going on. Making it one raid size basically means that every boss will be easy except maybe the final boss. Making it once raid size will make the instance Hyjal all over again. Piss easy bosses all the way up to Archimonde. By any standard the difficulty of the raid will have to come down.. way down because theirs more lfr heros who may potentially come into normal raiding and will have to be catered to.

---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 07:11 PM ----------

Split the current tier into 3 wings, the first third has difficulty of LFR first boss (Stone Guards) to last (Lei Shen), the middle third as Normal difficulty, and the last third as Heroic difficulty, and the vast majority of the population will understand that they're never going to clear the raid.

Why exactly should they be happy about that? given they payed for the expansion and saw Arthas on the box cover I think it's reasonable that they see Arthas.


One raid size means a piss easy raid all over if you want the people who paid for the box to see the boss on the box. One raid size means raid difficulty overall is coming WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY down. While I agree raid difficulty overall should come down it's probably not something that most of these people want to see happen.

[Deleted]

I think we need to get away from the idea that just because content is 6 months old, it no longer needs to be done.

There already is a difficulty between T15 LFR and T15 Normal - it is called T14 Heroic.

From a player who works exceptionally hard on a reduced schedule, the current difficulty has been more rewarding than any I have done before.

The main problem we have is that most of the raiding population sit in normal modes, and the gap between 1 normal mode and the next is absolutely massive.

How do we get people to continue in a linear path of Normal-Heroic-Normal-Heroic? rather than Normal-skip-Normal-skip. It's no wonder people are getting stuck.

I realize that Blizzard have discarded the attunement system, but it does have very strong plus points. In the past I wasn't allowed into BT before I was ready. Now, any 16/16 normal group from t14 can jump into t15, and it is these people who are making all the noise. They are finding it hard, and they should find it hard.

[Glorious Leader]

I think we need to get away from the idea that just because content is 6 months old, it no longer needs to be done.

There already is a difficulty between T15 LFR and T15 Normal - it is called T14 Heroic.

From a player who works exceptionally hard on a reduced schedule, the current difficulty has been more rewarding than any I have done before.

The main problem we have is that most of the raiding population sit in normal modes, and the gap between 1 normal mode and the next is absolutely massive.

How do we get people to continue in a linear path of Normal-Heroic-Normal-Heroic? rather than Normal-skip-Normal-skip. It's no wonder people are getting stuck.

I realize that Blizzard have discarded the attunement system, but it does have very strong plus points. In the past I wasn't allowed into BT before I was ready. Now, any 16/16 normal group from t14 can jump into t15, and it is these people who are making all the noise. They are finding it hard, and they should find it hard.

You know I was gonna respond to this but then I figured what's the point? If you haven't learned that the tiered raiding model is a massive failure at this point then what hope for a reasonable discussion is there.

What we need to move beyond is this idea that the current content should be for you and your pals and only you and your pals and everyone should be left doing the fucking left overs just to sate the desire for increasing challenge and complexity.

[Keoren]

What we need to move beyond is this idea that the current content should be for you and your pals and only you and your pals and everyone should be left doing the fucking left overs just to sate the desire for increasing challenge and complexity.

Why would you simply kill off the older content?
Why would you want to deprive content from people and force them into the latest tier if they could have as many as three tiers to play through?

This model even supports the addition of a 'tutorial raid' because it could exist on the bottom level and would not have to be added every single tier.

Whether the tiered raiding in is a good model in general is a whole another discussion that would probably require a thread of its own.

[Glorious Leader]

Why would you simply kill off the older content?
Why would you want to deprive content from people and force them into the latest tier if they could have as many as three tiers to play through?

This model even supports the addition of a 'tutorial raid' because it could exist on the bottom level and would not have to be added every single tier.

Whether the tiered raiding in is a good model in general is a whole another discussion that would probably require a thread of its own.

Nobody is depriving anything. It's there people have just elected not to do it. People were given the choice between doing lfr and going back to do old crap with their guild. Guess which lost?

[RickJamesLich]

What we need to move beyond is this idea that the current content should be for you and your pals and only you and your pals and everyone should be left doing the fucking left overs just to sate the desire for increasing challenge and complexity.

Tier 14 was awesome, to be honest, I think it's logical from Blizz's stand point to encourage at least some of the playerbase to play it, lots of good stuff and can be interesting for the right folks.

[Keoren]

Nobody is depriving anything. It's there people have just elected not to do it. People were given the choice between doing lfr and going back to do old crap with their guild. Guess which lost?

It is not black and white. The design did not encourage and reward the path enough.

[RickJamesLich]

Nobody is depriving anything. It's there people have just elected not to do it. People were given the choice between doing lfr and going back to do old crap with their guild. Guess which lost?

Wait, if people don't like to do tier 14 stuff because it's the "same old crap", wouldn't they not want to do an easy mode version of ToT as well, since it's "the same old crap"?

[Glorious Leader]

Tier 14 was awesome, to be honest, I think it's logical from Blizz's stand point to encourage at least some of the playerbase to play it, lots of good stuff and can be interesting for the right folks.

ToES was good. The rest was garbage and not worth wasting time on. The only catch up I would recommend people take their guilds to do is ToES. The rest is a waste of time.

---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 08:42 PM ----------

It is not black and white. The design did not encourage and reward the path enough.

Oh it absolutely did. Are you kidding me? They nerfed the crap out of those raids and people still said no thanks. Tiering raids is a loosing proposition even without lfr in the mix. You can get rid of lfr and I can guarantee you instead of going back to do old content people will just leave the game.

---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 08:43 PM ----------

[/COLOR]

Wait, if people don't like to do tier 14 stuff because it's the "same old crap", wouldn't they not want to do an easy mode version of ToT as well, since it's "the same old crap"?

I'm no asking for another version of the raid. I'm asking for normals to be made easier. we have enough difficulty modes thank you very much.

[RickJamesLich]

I'm no asking for another version of the raid. I'm asking for normals to be made easier. we have enough difficulty modes thank you very much.

Again, what's the point, they would be doing the "same old crap" if they just did normal, and end up being bored. Sounds like raiding isn't for those types, and blizz should stop focusing on them lol. LFR is boring cuz of the easy factor, no need to kill off normal too.

[Glorious Leader]

Again, what's the point, they would be doing the "same old crap" if they just did normal, and end up being bored. Sounds like raiding isn't for those types, and blizz should stop focusing on them lol. LFR is boring cuz of the easy factor, no need to kill off normal too.

If raiding isn't for those types then the entire raid model probably has to be looked at. Raiding consumes all the money and time the developers have to amke content and yet it apparently appeals to so few players. LFr isn't boring because it's easy, lfr is boring because you don't know a single fucking soul in that place and it's really just a massive unrewarding headache.

[Keoren]

Oh it absolutely did. Are you kidding me? They nerfed the crap out of those raids and people still said no thanks.

The incentive was not there. Still, many groups did and do go back. If someone has satisfying the answers to the following questions, they probably have a keeper.

Why would I want to go back and progress through an older tier that I didn't finish?
Why would I as a new player want to play through the older tiers first before catching up to the newest one?
What would ensure that there would be groups running the older content, giving the players the chance to go back?

This is, of course, still assuming the tiered model. I am also only talking about the normal difficulty. I would not consider the heroic modes a universal path of progression.

Tiering raids is a loosing proposition even without lfr in the mix.

I could personally live with several different designs as long as they're pulled off well.

You can get rid of lfr and I can guarantee you instead of going back to do old content people will just leave the game.

Personally I prefer to think around LFR because it's not going anywhere for now.

[Glorious Leader]

The incentive was not there. Still, many groups did and do go back. If someone has satisfying the answers to the following questions, they probably have a keeper.

Why would I want to go back and progress through an older tier that I didn't finish?
Why would I as a new player want to play through the older tiers first before catching up to the newest one?
What would ensure that there would be groups running the older content, giving the players the chance to go back?

This is, of course, still assuming the tiered model. I am also only talking about the normal difficulty. I would not consider the heroic modes a universal path of progression.



I could personally live with several different designs as long as they're pulled off well.



Personally I prefer to think around LFR because it's not going anywhere for now.

I dont' understand do you people have such an extremely high opinion of the game that you think people would stick around for the tiered raiding model from almost 10 years ago at this point? like let's say lfr didn't exist ever and people never knew about it do you think they would be satisfied with the same shit they had in bc and not just leave the game instead? Do you understand that theirs lots of free games out there and lots of other games to play? Why do you think anyone should be satisfied with doing left overs when the new patch is out? Why should they continually be satisfied subsidizing new content for you and not for themselves?

[RickJamesLich]

If raiding isn't for those types then the entire raid model probably has to be looked at. Raiding consumes all the money and time the developers have to amke content and yet it apparently appeals to so few players. LFr isn't boring because it's easy, lfr is boring because you don't know a single fucking soul in that place and it's really just a massive unrewarding headache.

I wouldn't listen to Osmeric if he's the one that told you raiding appeals to very few players but costs a ton of resources - if that was the case, I don't think blizzard would still be making raids after the game's been out for almost a decade (and still has millions upon millions playing it). And wouldn't that mean that the majority of the player base logs in and does nothing? If that were really true, I don't think WoW would be anywhere near as successful as it is lol.

LFR has a ton of problems, I personally think they should get rid of it and just give people other content instead - real content, not just easy mode versions of stuff. 5 mans once made the game great, but those were nerfed into oblivion and how many people run them after their first day at 90? Doing the same to raiding will just end up giving raiding the same fate. IMO if they:

- Made 5 man heroic dungeons that required some coordination, but also gave worthwhile upgrades from time to time
- Set up the challenge modes so they give even better upgrades from that (and not just cosmetic stuff, like they initially did)
- Allow faction rep grinds that give epics that don't cost valor (while still having some epics that cost valor)
- Eliminated PvP power and resil so your gear was useful in either scenario, so you could do some bg's after a raid or vice versa
- Brought back craftable items that weren't watered down

That'd be a much better start for giving content that everyone could enjoy then just re-hashing a new mode for a raid. Making the disparities between epics smaller would be great too. The game catered too much too "casuals", and I use that word loosely, it's probably not the right word, and the challenge and social aspects of the game suffered greatly for it.

[Keoren]

I dont' understand do you people have such an extremely high opinion of the game that you think people would stick around for the tiered raiding model from almost 10 years ago at this point?

The game has some of the highest quality raiding content on the market. Some players play because of that and most players do not.

like let's say lfr didn't exist ever and people never knew about it do you think they would be satisfied with the same shit they had in bc and not just leave the game instead?

I said that I prefer to think around LFR existing. I also think that the TBC model has several issues that would be glaring if it was adopted back. I am not talking about the TBC model even if it has features that I think could improve the raiding experience.

Why do you think anyone should be satisfied with doing left overs when the new patch is out?

Why are they leftovers if the players have never done them before? The content is brand new to those people.

I also fail to see the issue in making some of the players want to go back.
Ideally the raid design in question would be more exciting, but do you feel like you're forced into doing leftovers when you enter a 5-man heroic for your valor points?

I also don't think that the newest content should be 'walled' from the players per se. The point would be to make the older content relevant in some way. This would partially cover the need for an easier difficulty and teach the newer players the act of raiding without forcing them into the current normal mode content.

Why should they continually be satisfied subsidizing new content for you and not for themselves?

A player playing through multiple tiers experiences more of the content than the one who jumping straight into the newest tier.

[Glorious Leader]

I wouldn't listen to Osmeric if he's the one that told you raiding appeals to very few players but costs a ton of resources - if that was the case, I don't think blizzard would still be making raids after the game's been out for almost a decade (and still has millions upon millions playing it). And wouldn't that mean that the majority of the player base logs in and does nothing? If that were really true, I don't think WoW would be anywhere near as successful as it is lol.

LFR has a ton of problems, I personally think they should get rid of it and just give people other content instead - real content, not just easy mode versions of stuff. 5 mans once made the game great, but those were nerfed into oblivion and how many people run them after their first day at 90? Doing the same to raiding will just end up giving raiding the same fate. IMO if they:

- Made 5 man heroic dungeons that required some coordination, but also gave worthwhile upgrades from time to time
- Set up the challenge modes so they give even better upgrades from that (and not just cosmetic stuff, like they initially did)
- Allow faction rep grinds that give epics that don't cost valor (while still having some epics that cost valor)
- Eliminated PvP power and resil so your gear was useful in either scenario, so you could do some bg's after a raid or vice versa
- Brought back craftable items that weren't watered down

That'd be a much better start for giving content that everyone could enjoy then just re-hashing a new mode for a raid. Making the disparities between epics smaller would be great too. The game catered too much too "casuals", and I use that word loosely, it's probably not the right word, and the challenge and social aspects of the game suffered greatly for it.

I don't have to listen to osmeric for that. The developers themselves have said that was the case and that's why lfr needed to be introduced. The creation of LFR is a cycnical calcuation. it's to get more economic bang for the buck out of raids bceause raids take so much time and resources so much so that they can't even make anymore dungeons which had far broader appeal.

The game didn't cater to casuals. It once again catered to hardcores who have all the time and skill in the universe.

---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 09:29 PM ----------

The game has some of the highest quality raiding content on the market. Some players play because of that. Most players do not.



I said that I prefer to think around LFR existing. I also think that the TBC model has several issues that would be glaring if it was adopted back. I am not talking about the TBC model even if it has features that I think could improve the raiding experience.



Why are they left-overs if the players have never done them before? The content is brand new to those people.

I also fail to see the issue in making some of the players want to go back.
Ideally the raid design in question would be more exciting, but do you feel like you're forced into doing left-overs when you enter a 5-man heroic for your valor points?

I also don't necessarily think that the newest content should be 'walled' from the players per se. The point would be to make the older content relevant in some way. This would partially cover the need for an easier difficulty and teach the newer players the act of raiding without forcing them into the current normal mode content.



A player playing through multiple tiers experiences more of the content than the one who jumping straight into the newest tier.

At this point they've pretty much all seen MSV I think but even if they haven't so what? they saw the add on some website for the thunder king thought that was cool and want to go fight him not fight the piddling army of bullshit that exists before him. They aren't interested in your notions about having to go back and do "old crap" when they see the guy in stormwind in full 522s or upgrade heroic thunderforged. They aren't interested in going through that many hoops for "progression". Their is no reason to make older content relevant, because guess what people aren't gonna do it. If older content becomes relevant enough to the point where people would chose to do it it would have to be more relevant than current or new content. That isn't not a good design model by any stretch. It's painfully regressive and punitive and just shuts players out from seeing the new stuff.

[The Penguin]

Why is there no "It's fine the way it is" option.

Thirded on the "fine the way it is" option.

Casting my vote on the option the OP dislikes. "It's fine the way it is."

What do I propose? Nothing. Nothing is stopping ANYONE from going and finding 10 friends to do content with. What is stopping them is that they want to do reg. Raiding, but do not want to lead. What is stopping them is not LFR. What stop's them is their laziness. So they scream for Blizzard to make other people unhappy because they themselves are unhappy.

LFR is fine. With as bland as the game is now it's the only thing most people still are willing to do.

Now if you wanted to spice up the LFR system with different modes? That's fine, but adding to it is the way to please the players. Not taking away choices like they did with CRZ, and the 5.4 feature that will likely incorporate item-scaling in older raids.

[Pua]

The incentive was not there. Still, many groups did and do go back. If someone has satisfying the answers to the following questions, they probably have a keeper.

Why would I want to go back and progress through an older tier that I didn't finish?
Why would I as a new player want to play through the older tiers first before catching up to the newest one?
What would ensure that there would be groups running the older content, giving the players the chance to go back?

This is, of course, still assuming the tiered model. I am also only talking about the normal difficulty. I would not consider the heroic modes a universal path of progression.

Ultimately, I have no problem with the tiered model and worry along similar lines; is there something fundamentally bad about clearing your way through a tiered progression path?

Well... No. No, I don't think so. In fact, one could argue that it's preferable in many ways because it can keep content fresher for more people, for a longer period of time.

I think part of the issue is that the progression path isn't clear. You say you're not considering heroic modes a universal path of progression, but given the full two-tier jump in item level from Heart of Fear/Terrace of Endless Spring to the Throne of Thunder, I reckon there are some heavy implications that people are expected to complete some heroics before starting the next normal tier.

Is that right? Again, I don't think so.