[TV] Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D

[Deleted]

he said it's real enough to him

Right. As I said. Selfish. It's nothing but escapism. No different from one crawling into a bottle. It was never suggested, at the very end of the episode, in any way or form, that he honestly thought he was being a father to a real child. No. He just said that the fake daughter, the one he came to fully well know was fake, felt real, to him. It felt real. It made him happy. Not his daughter. That's him being utterly selfish and wanting another fix. Nothing more.

But I mean, hey... That's just how I saw it personally. That's what was completely obvious to me. You're free to have your own interpretation of it, and it's honestly pointless to debate it. I just wanted to gloat over the Mr. High Horse guy falling from his pedestal, and I did that. I'm sure he won't die in the end, but if you ask me, the show would be better without him. Again, just my own personal opinion, and I'm sure I'm alone in thinking that.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Again, this is just straight-up not true. Hence why when Mace died in the Framework, he died in the real world.



In the same sense that people in the real world are just "squishy meat". You're just ignoring the point.

The avatar is linked to the real person but is not that person, the only ones even aware they were avatars were Daisy's and Simmons's. Kill the real person the avatar still exhists see Agness and Radcliff. The mcu already established souls exists with ghostrider. Kill the body the soul, the person leaves. Macs avatar, influenced by the framework, wantes to stay who knows what the real one wanted.

The Framework Hope is just code the real world Hope died and has a soul out there somewhere, she isn't just a bag of meat. If Mac want religious and or souls wernt proven to exist in the mcu unlike real life I would agree with you.

[Endus]

It was never suggested, at the very end of the episode, in any way or form, that he honestly thought he was being a father to a real child. No. He just said that the fake daughter, the one he came to fully well know was fake, felt real, to him.

Then you're watching a different show, because they made it VERY clear that the Framework is every bit as "real" as the "real" world, that the people in it, NPCs or not, are just as "real" as anyone else. They made a major point of establishing that.

The avatar is linked to the real person but is not that person, the only ones even aware they were avatars were Daisy's and Simmons's. Kill the real person the avatar still exhists see Agness and Radcliff. The mcu already established souls exists with ghostrider. Kill the body the soul, the person leaves. Macs avatar, influenced by the framework, wantes to stay who knows what the real one wanted.

The Framework Hope is just code the real world Hope died and has a soul out there somewhere, she isn't just a bag of meat. If Mac want religious and or souls wernt proven to exist in the mcu unlike real life I would agree with you.

You have literally zero grounds for claiming that the people in the Framework don't have souls. You're making that up, and every bit of evidence they gave us in the show directly contradicts that.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Then you're watching a different show, because they made it VERY clear that the Framework is every bit as "real" as the "real" world, that the people in it, NPCs or not, are just as "real" as anyone else. They made a major point of establishing that.



You have literally zero grounds for claiming that the people in the Framework don't have souls. You're making that up, and every bit of evidence they gave us in the show directly contradicts that.

I mean if the framework was it own alternate universe and not just a program run all around world i would agree with you, but it was limited just to a single tower a week before daisy and Simmons were plugged in, and we saw it start to decompile around the exit hole. If it was an alternate universe then Aida should have been content to stay there. But she didn't because she was no more real as a human there than she was as an android in the real world. In the end for Aida the framework was just a convenient way to fuck with Fitz's mind and later find a way to transfer her program from android to simulated human to flesh and blood human presumably with a soul.

Shut the framework down now and the only one who would die, and whose soul would move on would be Mac.

[Endus]

I mean if the framework was it own alternate universe and not just a program run all around world i would agree with you, but it was limited just to a single tower a week before daisy and Simmons were plugged in, and we saw it start to decompile around the exit hole.

You literally just acknowledged that you're wrong. The tower was just a specific program to break May. The Framework itself was much more. Obviously.

It IS its own universe. They made that clear in several separate episodes, in fairly specific detail.

Just by way of example, the Framework wasn't possible without the knowledge from the Darkhold. And the Darkhold doesn't deal with technology, specifically. It deals with magic, and bending reality and manipulating dimensions, specifically.

If it was an alternate universe then Aida should have been content to stay there. But she didn't because she was no more real as a human there than she was as an android in the real world.

Well, no. She was still being puppeteered from outside the Framework, and the puppet was her robot self, which was limited by its programming. Which is why they needed to create the all-new biological version.

[Ilikegreenfire]

You literally just acknowledged that you're wrong. The tower was just a specific program to break May. The Framework itself was much more. Obviously.

It IS its own universe. They made that clear in several separate episodes, in fairly specific detail.

Just by way of example, the Framework wasn't possible without the knowledge from the Darkhold. And the Darkhold doesn't deal with technology, specifically. It deals with magic, and bending reality and manipulating dimensions, specifically.



Well, no. She was still being puppeteered from outside the Framework, and the puppet was her robot self, which was limited by its programming. Which is why they needed to create the all-new biological version.

The framework started as Mays prison and ended up being a program that was run across multiple platforms across the world but its still a program, we literally saw it decompile. The darkhold gave Aida the knowledge she needed to create the tech she needed to make herself a real body but at that point it was still tech, the framework is still tech, tech created by magic knowledge sure but tech none the less, all it is is code. Find the off switch and the entire framework shuts down, turn it back on and the program starts from where it left off.

I would argue Aida was the realist thing in the framework. Framework Aida was basically a direct upload of her program just human. Everyone else was just controlling their framework replicas, avatars, whether knowing it or not. That's why Simmons was dead and Daisy was Skye, and Mace was an actual inhuman

[apepi]

Honestly guys it has not been proven whether or not they are just ones and zeros or they have a soul or it is somehow some weird tech multiworld. The question is, does Aida have a soul if she has a body? Is she just a human without a soul now? Did the Darkhold actually create souls, then these people would actually be kind of real?

There is not a lot of evidence proving either theory, besides Aida was able to make herself a body and become part of the regular world.

[frogger237]

Not abandoning his daughter isn't the "selfish route". C'mon, man.

It was the selfish route tho, he said he wanted to stay to be with her. The only way he could actually protect her would be to be in the real world to make sure the framework is never destroyed/shutdown or give her a physical body in the real world. He suddenly learns that people and the framework can be edited and instead of making the tough choice to leave his daughter and either prevent the framework from being modified/destroyed or attempting to modify it so his daughter has a better life(like no hydra), he chooses to stay with her because he wants to be with her. He doesn't have a clue if the others will be able to stop Madame Hydra or not hes just like "fuck it, imma spend what ever time I got left with my daughter."

[Nadiru]

Not abandoning his daughter isn't the "selfish route". C'mon, man.

And before you go back on an "it's not real" rant, I'll remind you that A> he said it's real enough to him (which was the entire point of the Framework), and B> the whole thing's underpinned by the Darkhold's interdimensional magic. It isn't just a nifty computer program.

It's precisely because the Framework is real that makes Mack's decision the selfish route. He's literally removing himself from the struggle that determines whether the nightmare hellscape that is Hydraworld becomes everybody's reality.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Honestly guys it has not been proven whether or not they are just ones and zeros or they have a soul or it is somehow some weird tech multiworld. The question is, does Aida have a soul if she has a body? Is she just a human without a soul now? Did the Darkhold actually create souls, then these people would actually be kind of real?

There is not a lot of evidence proving either theory, besides Aida was able to make herself a body and become part of the regular world.

I'm thinking that she is the first artificially made human that possesses a soul, a soul that is inherently evil thanks to everyone favorite book, hopefully it enough of a bone for Mephisto or whoever to let his favorite dog of his leash. If Mac is gone for good the Show needs a Younger bad ass dude on permanent cast again.

[Deleted]

Then you're watching a different show, because they made it VERY clear that the Framework is every bit as "real" as the "real" world, that the people in it, NPCs or not, are just as "real" as anyone else. They made a major point of establishing that.

Well, that must be it. I must be watching a different show, because in the show that I watched, the main characters kept repeating, time and time again, that it's just "ones and zeroes", and that it's "just a simulation", and that it's not real, and that they have to "return to the real world", and in the very end of the last episode, Mr. Shotgun Axe very explicitly comes to the realization that none of it is real, and still chooses the not-real, fake, illusory, escapism tool daughter over returning to the real world and to the real people who really care about him.

I mean, sure, the Darkhold is mentioned a couple times. I just can't remember a single point where anyone says that the place that they're in is an actual reality, and not a virtual one.

[Shadowferal]

Honestly guys it has not been proven whether or not they are just ones and zeros or they have a soul or it is somehow some weird tech multiworld. The question is, does Aida have a soul if she has a body? Is she just a human without a soul now? Did the Darkhold actually create souls, then these people would actually be kind of real? There is not a lot of evidence proving either theory, besides Aida was able to make herself a body and become part of the regular world.

Not sure where it'll go. But I think Aida does have a soul. But sadly like so many that do have a soul, aren't aware of it, or refuse to believe it. Which in a twisted sense justifies her behavior. She wants a human body...mind/body/soul thing I guess to be complete. (It wouldn't surprise me if she's fallen in love too...further proof of a soul)

- - - Updated - - -

Well, that must be it. I must be watching a different show, because in the show that I watched, the main characters kept repeating, time and time again, that it's just "ones and zeroes", and that it's "just a simulation", and that it's not real, and that they have to "return to the real world", and in the very end of the last episode, Mr. Shotgun Axe very explicitly comes to the realization that none of it is real, and still chooses the not-real, fake, illusory, escapism tool daughter over returning to the real world and to the real people who really care about him. I mean, sure, the Darkhold is mentioned a couple times. I just can't remember a single point where anyone says that the place that they're in is an actual reality, and not a virtual one.

I think we have to keep the "Darkhold" firmly in mind.
We keep thinking "technology" but the previous Ghost Rider arc was all about how irrelevant that was when faced with the supernatural, and how easily humans and tech can become corrupted by it.

[Deleted]

I think we have to keep the "Darkhold" firmly in mind.
We keep thinking "technology" but the previous Ghost Rider arc was all about how irrelevant that was when faced with the supernatural, and how easily humans and tech can become corrupted by it.

The argument was about whether Mack thought the world was real or not. Not whether it actually was. He clearly came to see it the same way as all Simmons, Daisy and Coulson, that it wasn't real. Whether it actually was a "real reality" of some kind makes no difference in his decision-making, only what he thought it was. And, when he clearly thought it wasn't real, yet chose the blue pill regardless, the 100% selfish route, that's where he fell off the pedestal he had been barking from top of.

Had he actually kept saying that he thinks that the world, the virtual one they were in, was real - whether because the Darkhold had corrupted him into thing that, or whatever, then it would be different. But, he clearly showed he understood that it's not real, and then went on ahead to say that it, being there with her daughter, feels so nice and warm and fuzzy for him personally that he'll just go ahead and take his next fix instead of going back to the real world. Ignorance is bliss, and all that. Ask Cypher.

I mean, at least it makes the character seem a bit less of a Macky Sue. Suppose there'll be some character growth thanks to this choice after he inevitably survives and finds his way out of there anyway.

[Shadowferal]

The argument was about whether Mack thought the world was real or not. Not whether it actually was. He clearly came to see it the same way as all Simmons, Daisy and Coulson, that it wasn't real. Whether it actually was a "real reality" of some kind makes no difference in his decision-making, only what he thought it was. And, when he clearly thought it wasn't real, yet chose the blue pill regardless, the 100% selfish route, that's where he fell off the pedestal he had been barking from top of. Had he actually kept saying that he thinks that the world, the virtual one they were in, was real - whether because the Darkhold had corrupted him into thing that, or whatever, then it would be different. But, he clearly showed he understood that it's not real, and then went on ahead to say that it, being there with her daughter, feels so nice and warm and fuzzy for him personally that he'll just go ahead and take his next fix instead of going back to the real world. Ignorance is bliss, and all that. Ask Cypher. I mean, at least it makes the character seem a bit less of a Macky Sue. Suppose there'll be some character growth thanks to this choice after he inevitably survives and finds his way out of there anyway.

Ok...I see the argument. And I dig character growth. It's always a shame that it's sometimes cruel.

[Kalcheus]

Y'all talking about Mack but Tripp was the one breaking my heart

[Shadowferal]

Y'all talking about Mack but Tripp was the one breaking my heart

Ouch!

[frogger237]

Holy fuck Hell hath no fury like an android who gave herself a human body with inhuman powers scorned

[Nerraw]

This season.... They better fucking renew this show.

[Wyattbw09]

So what happened between Robot May and Colulson? I've forgotten in the what month two months since it happened?

[Mehrunes]

I have to say, the acting in the last two episodes is really great. Especially on Fitz's part. That moment when he said it's Simmons for him and Aida went dafuq. Wouldn't want to be him even without her having crazy powers.

Some people are suggesting that she took dna samples of inhumans in the Framework, researched them and fused them in her body. The teleportation is Gordon's power (I think it's the same visual effect).

Huh, looks that this RIDICULOUSLY convoluted thing that made Aida testing on the Inhumans not a random act of being evil for evil's sake was actually true.

Now the question is is Aida still evil at her core because of the dark hold corruption? Her new body was made from dark hold knowledge so probably. Seems like and excellent way to segue Ghostrider back in, not that i wouldn't want to see Daisy try and solo Aida. But whatever pulled Robbie down to hell or where ever has to gotta want to collect a soul that was created through magic and is fundamentally evil.

And so was this. I wonder what crevice of a dimension Ghost Rider will drag her to. Or why he suddenly returned. Did he sense Aida through the portal still at SHIELD's base? Either way, quite neat how they are going to weave all the arcs of this season's together.

You have literally zero grounds for claiming that the people in the Framework don't have souls. You're making that up, and every bit of evidence they gave us in the show directly contradicts that.

So when Daisy plugged in and took over Skye's body in there she merged their souls, put that soul in some quantum box or what?