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  1. #81
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylol View Post
    Decent update.
    Some changes I can see though are that the adds die far to fast on H Meg and Lei Shen so LB ends up being better.
    I would always go NT for walls on Heroic Durumu, especially if you're frost. Fire it probably doesn't matter as much since you're working on a good combustion instead of multidotting the crap out of walls but I bet NT is still probably better unless you have a ton of ele shamans/fire mages/locks that can burn down the walls insanely fast.
    For Primordius, you should always go LB unless you're on add duty (which you really shouldn't be tbh).
    Animus is still a hard one for me to decide. I feel LB is probably better in the long run, but dotting up the adds at the beginning is pretty helpful so I'm not sure.
    Twin Consorts is another hard one. Depends on if your guild reveals a lot of adds in phase 1 or not. If not, LB. If so, maybe NT.
    I do agree that it shouldn't make a significant difference either way, but this is just for min maxers.
    RPPM stuff is all anecdotal so that's that.
    I wasn't sure about H Meg at all, and LS was in the air because the adds do respawn a ton. I'll update that.
    Walls I didn't know too much about except how "Elemental and Destruction wreck due to AoE".
    Eh. It's debatable for Prim.
    Animus is completely preference based.
    Don't know how heroic works (guessing that's the nightmare adds but everyone can attack em?). Another preference fight.
    I would like to know if the extra 2-5 ticks affect RPPM though.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  2. #82
    High Overlord Neoxx's Avatar
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    Good update Dragon.

    Note that LB could be better even on multi target fights where targets die really quick and/or targets are far apart.
    Also remember that LB lasts longer on the target, has a fixed 1.0sec GCD and clipping is much easier.


    Here is how I roll with some details (fire spec):

    Jin'rokh (N/H) - LB
    Horridon (N/H) - NT pretty obvious (maybe LB for 100% boss scumbagging )
    Council (N/H) - NT should be better if everything is tanked together and can be cleaved
    Tortos (N/H) - NT
    Megaera (N/H) - LB obvious for normal mode, the adds on heroic die way to fast so LB should be better in my opinion
    Ji-Kun (N/H) - LB cause the adds don't last long enough for decent cleave dmg and we nuke the boss after the 8th nest anyways
    Durumu (N) - LB
    Durumu (H) - NT is better for the walls
    Primordius (N/H) - LB
    Dark Animus (N/H) - Depends on the strategie. NT is pretty good for all the adds (and DPS scumbagging), LB is better for boss dmg
    Iron Qon (N/H) - LB since it is mostly a single target fight
    Twin Consorts (N) - LB
    Twin Consorts (H) - I have no clue, haven't tried heroic yet
    Lei Shen (N) - LB, cause add die within 5 seconds usually (thanks demo warlocks)
    Lei Shen (H) - I have no clue, haven't tried heroic yet


    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I would like to know if the extra 2-5 ticks affect RPPM though.
    Yeah that's one of the main questions.
    I'm pretty sure it does, but I can't prove it. And trinkets like Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance (only procs from crits) will make the answer even more complicated.
    Last edited by Neoxx; 2013-05-25 at 03:25 PM.

  3. #83
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beckx View Post
    Good update Dragon.

    Note that LB could be better even on multi target fights where targets die really quick and/or targets are far apart.
    Also remember that LB lasts longer on the target, has a fixed 1.0sec GCD and clipping is much easier.
    Thanks Trying to have a compilation for everyone to quickly go-to/an area for us to debate the bombs/bitch-about-Mage-stuff-because-all-my-threads-turn-into-that-anyways-lol.

    True, but keep in mind 4+ targets = NT multi-dotting
    The GCD is kinda eh. It saves a bit, but not much (esp with meta/as Frost)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckx View Post
    Ji-Kun (N/H) - LB cause the adds don't last long enough for decent cleave dmg and we nuke the boss after the 8th nest anyways
    Primordius (N/H) - LB
    These I will counter-argue. NT is just amazing on the upper platform's eggs, and I do end up spamming NT on the lower birds, even with an Orb (our ranged DPS, besides me, is pretty... mediocre).
    Primordius, I do feel like NT is better, especially when I'm trying to get buffs. If you're PURELY on Prim, then yeah, LB's better eDPS (lower DPS though, but eDPS is what really matters when killing bosses)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckx View Post
    Dark Animus (N/H) - Depends on the strategy. NT is pretty good for all the adds (and DPS scumbagging), LB is better for boss dmg
    I'd say it's more or less preference IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckx View Post
    Lei Shen (N) - LB, cause add die within 5 seconds usually (thanks demo warlocks)
    Lei Shen (N) - I have no clue, haven't tried heroic yet
    I'm guessing the second one was supposed to be "H"? Other than that, I'd again say preference, though overall, deep down, LB is probs better. I just don't care enough to switch.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Beckx View Post
    Good update Dragon.

    Note that LB could be better even on multi target fights where targets die really quick and/or targets are far apart.
    Also remember that LB lasts longer on the target, has a fixed 1.0sec GCD and clipping is much easier.


    Here is how I roll with some details (fire spec):

    Megaera (N/H) - LB obvious for normal mode, the adds on heroic die way to fast so LB should be better in my opinion
    Ji-Kun (N/H) - LB cause the adds don't last long enough for decent cleave dmg and we nuke the boss after the 8th nest anyways
    Durumu (H) - NT is better for the walls
    Twin Consorts (H) - I have no clue, haven't tried heroic yet
    -Megaere hc, pretty much yes, the time on adds is so low plus they really never reach the boss anyways, if you wanna epeen your dps though, use frost bomb
    -Ji-Kun hc, On 25 man yes, the small adds last so little from the overall fight, but on 10 man I think you are flying most of the time if you get the job
    -On durumu its again down to you actually using multiple bombs to dot the icewall which lessens the impact greatly, plus icewalls are like every 1.5 mins so they aren't they are up a huge % out of the fight
    -On twins 25 hc at least you get around 30 secs max cleave time, and the shadow adds just melt away in few seconds at the start of p2.

  5. #85
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Think what you want everyone, I disagree with your calculations for frost only. Parses prove it and will continue to prove it.

  6. #86
    High Overlord Neoxx's Avatar
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    Can you link the parses please?

  7. #87

  8. #88
    And frostbomb will just sit in it's forever alone corner
    nothing but empty space here bro. move along now.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I raid tomorrow, I'll link the parses after that.
    What parses prove it? I don't know where you are pulling this info from but if it's your own logs you're not playing properly of just flat out lying about the outcome of NT vs LB.

  10. #90
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I raid tomorrow, I'll link the parses after that.
    You'll link parses with NT and LB simultaneously? That is impressive. Not sure how you can disagree with the calculations for frost when they are universal, and clearly show LB to be ahead.

  11. #91
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Here's some dummy fun for you since I had an hour to kill:

    10 minute tests, 14308 haste & Living Bomb: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/m...2e/details/10/
    66458101 total LB dmg on 3 targets, splashing 4
    17574242 from AoE
    4180523 dmg to 4th untargetted dummy

    & Nether Tempest: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h...dsh/details/3/
    66143958 total NT on 3 targets, cleaving 4
    21892506 from cleave
    5505303 dmg to 4th untargetted dummy

    --
    Now for completely single target, NT has a big disadvantage.

    NT: 15667825 + 0 cleave http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/d...qxt/details/0/

    LB: 16820430 http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...fzm/details/0/
    + 1641852 explosion
    = 18462282

    This is not a little bit of a difference, but there's more to the story:

    Procs w/NT:
    Tempus Repit: 38.7%
    Wushoolay's: 29.5%
    FoF: 99 charges
    Brain Freeze: 87 charges

    Procs w/LB:
    Tempus Repit: 38.4%
    Wushoolay's: 39.1%
    FoF: 94 charges
    BF: 68 charges

    If you can keep up with the BF charges, at each being worth about 200k damage, then all things in my character profile staying the same it takes 14 additional charges to make NT & LB builds be equal.

    RNG plays a role, but I was able to get 19 more BF procs out of the NT build, which accounted for 968904 additional damage from FFB. Take also into consideration RNG in the favor of NT build because I had 11 non-crit FFBs (incredibly unlucky), versus 2 non-crits in the LB build.

    This continues to scale upwards with additional haste. The limiting factor is how quickly you can notice and use FFB after a BF proc, versus losing it.

    Example: I cast 61 FFBs despite getting 68 charges on LB, so I fail 7 times (or my GCD fails). I cast 73 FFBs despite getting 87 charges on NT. As long as I can get that gap to be high enough then the use of NT is justified over LB. If I am too slow or I am unlucky with the strings of GCDs, then I will drop the ball and NT will be lower damage than LB.

    --

    Conclusion: Use whichever one you want, they're so close. The issue I take with this community is they are a one-liner math crunchers that simply look at things from one angle. Many of you seem to fall into the trap of just calculating tooltips rather than looking at the big picture and how our spells impact each other. Take this into real-boss-fight mechanics and it gets even further away from raw calculations. Imagine on Horridon, there is far more potential for Nether Tempest to be in the places you want it to be, with big cleave damage on adds that must go down. We know NT cleaves for more than LB explodes and it is more reliable too. You can also have more snapshot control with buffs because you don't lose anything by refreshing NT at 7 or 8 sec to grab that last charge of Electrify or grab it before running out of Tempus Repit. If you refresh too early on LB you lose far too much.

    tldr: I've been successful with NT because of how multidotting is so big in this expansion and because of additional BF charges. LB is higher than NT in raw numbers, but in the big picture NT contributes to very high DPS if haste breakpoints are met and charges are consumed.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-25 at 02:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    You'll link parses with NT and LB simultaneously? That is impressive. Not sure how you can disagree with the calculations for frost when they are universal, and clearly show LB to be ahead.
    Oh because this would be the first time me going against the grain two months ahead resulted in me being right.

    I was the first mage to go for mastery above crit and now all of you are doing it. I'm not saying I'm the best in the world, I am saying I don't believe you can solve calculus problems using algebra.

  12. #92
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    There are several holes in your argument.

    Firstly, you use an example of Horridon, where most mages would be using NT anyway. Most of us aren't arguing that NT is NEVER better. There are obviously situations where it is, as you've pointed out.

    Then there's the "you don't lose anything by refreshing early" bit. You do. You lose a global. Often times it is worth it if you game it properly as you are aware, but you are under most circumstances, going to have a longer global than with LB as well.

    It is pretty clear to me that LB has the single target advantage by enough margin to make it worth while to switch talents. There are also cases where it is worth it even when the fight isn't strictly single target.

  13. #93
    You seem to just overlook the fact that there is a higher chance you will miss a proc from NT over LB. You need to also compare how many more frostbolts you get off with LB compared to NT if you are using a stopcast to cast a proc. You will always miss more procs with NT because the spell ticks so much faster but at a lesser %.

    Not to mention the rate at which trinket/meta procs shows LB much higher than that of NT.

    Your above math shows LB winning out to begin with not adding in the extra 10% uptime of trinket which is huge.
    Last edited by Roidzilla; 2013-05-25 at 06:27 PM.

  14. #94
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Oh because this would be the first time me going against the grain two months ahead resulted in me being right.

    I was the first mage to go for mastery above crit and now all of you are doing it. I'm not saying I'm the best in the world, I am saying I don't believe you can solve calculus problems using algebra.

    I normally agree with what you say, but every once in awhile you pull shit like this that leaves me disgusted. You MAY have been the first mage on this site to champion the cause of mastery over crit for frost. Good for you! I'm glad you can put that feather in your hat.

    That in no way means you are going to be always right. You seem to be taking the angle of "think for yourself" while not so subtly telling people they are wrong if they don't do it your way. I only look at the math as one of several tools to reach my conclusion as should anyone else.

  15. #95
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roidzilla View Post
    You seem to just overlook the fact that there is a higher chance you will miss a proc from NT over LB. You need to also compare how many more frostbolts you get off with LB compared to NT if you are using a stopcast to cast a proc. You will always miss more procs with NT because the spell ticks so much faster but at a lesser %.

    Not to mention the rate at which trinket/meta procs shows LB much higher than that of NT.

    Your above math shows LB winning out to begin with not adding in the extra 10% uptime of trinket which is huge.
    Never, ever, ever, ever stop cast.

    I don't think the Wushoolay's uptime is anything other than good RNG so I'm not giving LB credit for that.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-25 at 02:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    I normally agree with what you say, but every once in awhile you pull shit like this that leaves me disgusted. You MAY have been the first mage on this site to champion the cause of mastery over crit for frost. Good for you! I'm glad you can put that feather in your hat.

    That in no way means you are going to be always right. You seem to be taking the angle of "think for yourself" while not so subtly telling people they are wrong if they don't do it your way. I only look at the math as one of several tools to reach my conclusion as should anyone else.
    I think your stance is fair. I've been incredibly bull-headed about this entire bomb thing. I think it's because in 9 months of playing a mage I've gone through more dramatic and absurd changes than I did in all 7 years of playing a druid combined.

    I think it's ridiculous what this class goes through and how we have no thematic connection from the name of our spec to the spells we cast. We're divisive and fighty with each other in frustrating ways.

    I think there is more to the story than the simple calculations offered by others about living bomb, but I also am willing to concede that unless bizarre things happen LB is higher single-target. NT won't cleave back on the original target whereas the bomb explosion hits the original target and the direct dot damage scales. I won't try to argue that anymore since I've seen it for myself.

    What I will continue to argue though is the value of haste and how it relates to multidotting and procs. I will also continue to let the devs know every which way I can how ridiculous our spec/theme relationship is and changing how we play every patch and/or hotfix is a strain on the community.

    Frankly, as a new mage, I don't know how you guys have put up with this type of design for so long.

  16. #96
    [QUOTE=Akraen;21236770]Never, ever, ever, ever stop cast.

    Wrong, If less than 20% of FB is channeled/cast it's a dps gain to stopcast.

  17. #97
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roidzilla View Post
    Wrong, If less than 20% of FB is channeled/cast it's a dps gain to stopcast.
    Prove to me in your calculations that you are taking into account all triggers associated with the frostbolt that you were about to cast but didn't.

  18. #98
    I don't think the Wushoolay's uptime is anything other than good RNG so I'm not giving LB credit for that.[COLOR="red"]

    See this is why no one takes anything you say seriously. You can attribute higher procs from NT vs LB over an hour long test to benefit what YOU believe, but you say "oh trinket proc was luck"

  19. #99
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    That's completely understandable, Akraen. Glad you didn't go the other way with my comments. I came off a little more harsh than I should have there.

  20. #100
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roidzilla View Post
    See this is why no one takes anything you say seriously. You can attribute higher procs from NT vs LB over an hour long test to benefit what YOU believe, but you say "oh trinket proc was luck"
    Learn how to quote please, it's confusing.

    Anyway everyone knows you get more BF out of NT. If you honestly think that'd even out over time...

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