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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    even in WC3 you killed humans. TBC there was still tensions and conflict between the factions.

    And War is never pointless. People dont go out to end people's lives for only little to no reason.
    Reasons may be petty but they are hardly pointless
    "Emperors and cobblers are made from the same mold. The very things that cause neighboors to argue spark wars between princes"

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Thats an incredibly broad view
    Thats like saying Garrosh was proven right in that the Alliance would not stop fighting them
    Daelin said the Orcs would always be threat and needed to be neutralised to keep the Alliance safe. He said this after Thrall freed his people, threatened war against Lordaeron, attacked a harbor town and stole some ships. He also had first hand knowledge that the Orcs had returned before when the Alliance "just let them go" and the Orcs culture is not one that values peace across all the Clans.

    He ended up dead because his daughter wanted to give peace a chance.

    Garrosh said the Alliance is richer than the Orcs and the Orcs deserved to take that wealth because the Alliance was weak.
    Was he right?

    They had no apprant qualm for all the things he did in the human campaign
    Which mostly involved hunting down undead, the Scourge amnd Dreadlords.

    There are two instances which people throw up ehre.

    First: Stratholme. A terrible act. However, it appears to have been completely necessary. He does not appears to have any means available to him to spare the city or its inhabitants. No quarantine was viable. Blockading the city wasn't possible. Letting the Scourge grow to the extent it would have would likely have doomed the nation.

    Second; He killed the mercenaries he hired and stranded his troops. This action is very much against the values of the Alliance but its act reflects on Arthas, no the Alliance.

    and how is that little different from this discussion over Orcs
    Because you are tying to comapre the actiosn of a few individuals who act contrary to the beliefs and values of their factions and many tens of thouands of others in that faction, with individuals who embody the belifes and vlaues of their own faction.

    Arthas at the end did not embody the Alliance. He did not uphold its values and the Alliance rejected him and fought him. The same is true for other individuals. Indioviduals become villains, but the faction itself manages to remain relatively free of tranish from their actions because they do act as individuals.

    The Horde is different. The protagonists here tend to embody the values of the Horde society instead of being its antithesis. They aren't individuals atypcial of the faction and they aren't rejected by their faction. Indeed, as Garrosh shows, they are often embarced and celebrated by their faction.

    And that is why the Horde can find it difficult to separate itself from actions we see as evil. They often end up embracing and celebrating actions the Alliance would shun.

    EJL

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    No he wasn't. He had given up his position as Warchief and was on his way to the maelstrom to save the planet when the Alliance attacked him.
    Replay the Goblin intro, he was still considered Warchief as the Cataclysm had just happened (according to the Gobs).
    Quote Originally Posted by Standsinfire View Post
    Me: whyumad* fixed. Seriously though, it's only because they rapin' eveerbody in here and I don't want you to be snatched out yo' windows.
    Quote Originally Posted by noepeen View Post
    If that were my dog, I'd Hulk Smash the fuck out of that raccoon.
    Or I'd shit my pants.

  4. #244
    The Insane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hughes View Post
    Replay the Goblin intro, he was still considered Warchief as the Cataclysm had just happened (according to the Gobs).
    No he wasn't, as he gave up the mantle before Cata even launched. He did however still command quite a bit of respect;

    Thrall yells: I will send a representative from amongst your people to the new warchief, Garrosh Hellscream in Orgrimmar.

    Thrall yells: You will have a new home in Azshara and the Bilgewater Cartel will be part of the Horde!
    Trade Prince Gallywix yells: It will be as you say! Long live the Bilgewater Cartel! For the Horde!
    Greetings
    *broken link*
    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    First: Stratholme. A terrible act. However, it appears to have been completely necessary. He does not appears to have any means available to him to spare the city or its inhabitants. No quarantine was viable. Blockading the city wasn't possible. Letting the Scourge grow to the extent it would have would likely have doomed the nation.
    Yet its Blizzard's call to tell the player that Arthas is not heading toward villian. Its kinda a staple for Blizzard, when a character does something that results in civilian deaths
    Garrosh - Theramore
    Arthas - Stratholme
    Mengsk - Tarsonis

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-27 at 11:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Daelin said the Orcs would always be threat and needed to be neutralised to keep the Alliance safe.
    And Garrosh believes somethin similar
    "Thrall did not understand that the Alliance would never leave them be. It would push at the edges—like the orcs' enemies in Garadar—until the Horde broke. The only counter was to fight, to drive the humans out first. The orcs' security came above all else. There would be no negotiation until the Alliance understood that. Garrosh would not stop. His people would never dwindle, not again. The Horde would never fall."
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Yet its Blizzard's call to tell the player that Arthas is not heading toward villian. Its kinda a staple for Blizzard, when a character does something that results in civilian deaths
    Garrosh - Theramore
    Arthas - Stratholme
    Mengsk - Tarsonis
    There weren't any civilians left in Theramore. They had a week to clear out. Jaina even describes those choosing to stay as combatants.

    Originally Posted by Dave Kosak
    People often debate whether Stonetalon Garrosh and MoP Garrosh are the same Warchief. Is there something afoot?
    How so? He never ordered nukes wasted on civilian targets and still wouldn't.

    It didn't seem he cared if Theramore had civs in ToW.
    Theramore completely a military target, more so when the civs have chance to escape. (Source)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    There weren't any civilians left in Theramore. They had a week to clear out. Jaina even describes those choosing to stay as combatants.
    but is not the mark to show Garrosh's slide into villian status? Theramore being the beginning of MoP and what not?
    With all the Horde/Alliance characters qqing over it and all
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    but is not the mark to show Garrosh's slide into villian status? Theramore being the beginning of MoP and what not?
    With all the Horde/Alliance characters qqing over it and all
    Blizzard is really inconsistent with this. They want to paint Garrosh as evil, but they say he would never target civilians and he hasn't. He's just mean to people who disagree with him. Then they have Jaina, who actually does target civilians on multiple occasions, and so far they're perfectly fine with her remaining an Alliance hero.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  9. #249
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Jaina is as responsible for the deaths of those blood elf civilians in dalaran as Garrosh is responsible for the bombing of theramore. She may not have directly killed them herself, but she caused there deaths in allowing chaos to rain across dalaran from the silver convent. Garrosh didn't drop the bomb himself or even make it, but he set everything up and planned for it to happen.
    Neither of them should be excused for there actions.

    (its I did use to like Jaina, a lot, from wc3)

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Jaina is as responsible for the deaths of those blood elf civilians in dalaran as Garrosh is responsible for the bombing of theramore. She may not have directly killed them herself, but she caused there deaths in allowing chaos to rain across dalaran from the silver convent. Garrosh didn't drop the bomb himself or even make it, but he set everything up and planned for it to happen.
    Neither of them should be excused for there actions.

    (its I did use to like Jaina, a lot, from wc3)
    There are no civilians in Dalaran, on either side.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    There are no civilians in Dalaran, on either side.
    Fail. There are tons of civilians in Dalaran.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Jaina is as responsible for the deaths of those blood elf civilians in dalaran as Garrosh is responsible for the bombing of theramore. She may not have directly killed them herself, but she caused there deaths in allowing chaos to rain across dalaran from the silver convent.
    And OTOH, those that were attacked were deemed to be in a state of insurrection against the Kirin Tor and Dalaran. Its not made perfectly celar, but players are informed that those still running free are thsoe who resisted arrest and fought back. Theer is a reason Jainas running around shouting "The Kirin Tor will not tolerate insurrection".

    EJL

  13. #253
    Ugh I really hope Horde and Alliance aren't holding hands next expansion.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Baergrillz View Post
    Ugh I really hope Horde and Alliance aren't holding hands next expansion.
    No touching!
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  15. #255
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Theer is a reason Jainas running around shouting "The Kirin Tor will not tolerate insurrection".
    Perhaps her "Kirin Tor" was a metaphor and she was just venting about Kalec rushing, you know, things?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  16. #256
    Legendary! Taftvalue's Avatar
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    they will do what orcs are best at, when the legion comes, they will battle them and they will slay many demons oh and thrall will make sure his people will be safe and honorable again
    There is only one god and his name is Sargeras.
    Tell them only that the Lich King is dead and that World of Warcraft died with him.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Perhaps her "Kirin Tor" was a metaphor and she was just venting about Kalec rushing, you know, things?
    Maybe it was just that time of the month you know? lol

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by hksin11186 View Post
    Kill Mannaroth.

    I mean, uh, make Garrosh take the blame. Think Nuremberg Trials, but with magic.

    Make the horde do all kinds of evil shit. Make garrosh the sole scapegoat. Kill scapegoat and horde is redeemed from their evil deeds.

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    Make the horde do all kinds of evil shit. Make garrosh the sole scapegoat. Kill scapegoat and horde is redeemed from their evil deeds.
    Worked for Garithos.
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  20. #260
    Metzen will write some awesome high school grade fanfic and we will all be as impressed as usual.

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