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  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Checking the amount of players that killed saurfang compared to festergut, and spirit kings to elegon, there was a significantly larger % drop between saurfang and fester.

    Again. Not missing the fact that numbers are going down. Just disagreeing on the reason why.


    Also, never said everest was the hardest mountain to climb, just as heroic modes are not the hardest content in the world.
    Though it is still very hard and the most well known mountain to people that do not climb.

    Again you are falling into the trap where if you extrapolate the numbers down to 100 guilds kill the 1st boss and 99 guilds kill the last boss as we have trivial content. go further and by doing the same flawed math you can have a brand new single instance and lets say 1 guild in the world gets there and they finish it. by this flawed math we are having an instance that is either the easiest in the history of wow with 100% clearing ratio or the hardest one since 0% cleared it if they didnt finish it.

    Of course it is easy to see how flawed math is flawed when you put it to the extreme but the same exact flaw is in your numbers and how you judge them right now it just isnt as obvious for the untrained eye as they say.

  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    -snip-
    Your presumption that my math is flawed is based on the premise that the first boss in the instances are significantly harder than before and are actually stopping raids in a larger extent than before, which blue posts have confirmed they are not.

    I do not say that the math is perfect, however the same logic you used to "debunk" my math, can be used to debunk the math claiming the opposite. It is a double edged sword.

    Still, all math points towards that the average number of wipes and average number of guilds getting stuck on a boss in lower than before. That is undeniable.

    If you have a better 'math', please feel free to share it. Provide something to the thread.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-06-06 at 01:48 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Your presumption that my math is flawed is based on the premise that the first boss in the instances are significantly harder than before and are actually stopping raids in a larger extent than before, which blue posts have confirmed they are not.

    I do not say that the math is perfect, however the same logic you used to "debunk" my math, can be used to debunk the math claiming the opposite. It is a double edged sword.

    Still, all math points towards that the average number of wipes and average number of guilds getting stuck on a boss in lower than before. That is undeniable.

    If you have a better 'math', please feel free to share it. Provide something to the thread.

    And again you totally fail to take into the account all those thousands upon thousands of guild that have died away due to having smashing there heads into roadblocks over and over and over and over and over again. Of course your clearing percentage goes up when you have already killed of thousands upon thousands of mom and pop guilds already.

    clearing percentage is an irrelevant statistic totally irrelevant and i think it is blatantly obvious why it is IRRELEVANT to the discussion at hand when we pull it to the extreme and kill of another 25k guilds or 50k guilds or whatever numbers you need to kill of to get down to only 100 left and do the math based on those 100.

    I already pulled out numbers based on current status of clearing of this tier and we have 7000 guilds in heroic content and only 5500 that are 12/12 currently or time to progression ratio to become 12/12 before the tier is over.

    This is highly disturbing if you ask me since it means that normal most is basically just the unlock feature for the heroic guilds and that the number that actually gets to finish normal mode is LESS than what plays in heroic mode. or in short it is content for mostly the same players.

    A healthy level of completion vs folks 1/13H should be 1 to 5 ratio at least perhaps even moving up towards 1 to 10 ratio but lets work with 1 to 5 ratio as a start it would mean we would have 35k guilds give or take that would reach 12/12 before the tier is over. and today we got 27k guilds with a registered 1/12 or better 94 days i think we are coming up on in this tier. And today we have when we are over 3 months into this current tier 5500 guilds give or take that have downed 1/12 so far that are not on the radar for 2/12 kill And if you look you will see numerous guilds that downed jin'rokh normal mode on March 6th 2013 that never moved beyond this in progression.

    we see numerous guilds that have failed or disbanded in this tier and quite frankly i am worried for the first time in 9 years about raiding in this game. And the impact this attrition will have on guilds looking towards the future, i am deeply worried and i am sure folks at Blizzard are as well since they can see the numbers even better than i can.

  4. #704
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanishO2 View Post
    Also, most of the "complainers" were lying about "seeing the content" as LFR does exactly that, but still, ppl complained that they were not seeing "content" wich is clear that they're talking about loot. Wich is NOT content. Normal modes and Heroic modes are not new content. Except for a few things like Sinestra or Ra-den, normal/heroic is the same content.
    I feel bad for missing this comment; my apologies.

    Essentially, I think you're on to something. Normal mode completions rates are, for me, not really much to do with "seeing the content" because, as you rightly state, there's an easier way to do that for those who aren't interested. The problem we have is that guilds can't progress, and LFR isn't a substitute because that's just not what it was designed for. This is why I've mentioned the argument that LFR is needed if you want more raids to a couple of people; it just looks flat out bogus. During WotLK, when normal raids were easier, those who legitimately wanted to see raiding content could do so. LFR was born, specifically, because Cataclysm's raid content was too hard for everyone who wanted to raid, and those players dumped out needed somewhere to go.

    Just take a look at what goes on in LFR. It's horrible. A relatively fair and simple idea has been butchered because Blizzard decided it wasn't just going to be an opportunity for players to get into raiding and see some content, they decided it was part of the progression chain and only frustration has ensued since. It's legitimate audience, those who've never really raided and want to see what it's all about have seen frustrated people who'd like to raid but can't slammed in there with them, while the tier, weapon and trinket drops further exasperate this by putting in those who are clearing normal modes and have no business in it.

    It's an undeniable fact that people are running LFR who do not want to be running it. That means its design intention is a bust, and Blizzard are shoving too many people into the queue.

    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Mt Everest have never been the hardest mountain to climb among climbers it is common knowledge that

    The Eiger north wall at 3970 meter ( less than half the altitude of Everest)
    Matterhorn 4478 meter about 1/2 of Everest

    Than we can add in K2 Annapurna, Nanga Parbat just to name a few some with a lot less elevation to climb as being commonly regarded as more difficult
    Come on - that's got absolutely nothing to do with the point he was making.

  5. #705
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    And again you totally fail to take into the account all those thousands upon thousands of guild that have died away due to having smashing there heads into roadblocks over and over and over and over and over again. Of course your clearing percentage goes up when you have already killed of thousands upon thousands of mom and pop guilds already.

    clearing percentage is an irrelevant statistic totally irrelevant and i think it is blatantly obvious why it is IRRELEVANT to the discussion at hand when we pull it to the extreme and kill of another 25k guilds or 50k guilds or whatever numbers you need to kill of to get down to only 100 left and do the math based on those 100.

    I already pulled out numbers based on current status of clearing of this tier and we have 7000 guilds in heroic content and only 5500 that are 12/12 currently or time to progression ratio to become 12/12 before the tier is over.

    This is highly disturbing if you ask me since it means that normal most is basically just the unlock feature for the heroic guilds and that the number that actually gets to finish normal mode is LESS than what plays in heroic mode. or in short it is content for mostly the same players.

    A healthy level of completion vs folks 1/13H should be 1 to 5 ratio at least perhaps even moving up towards 1 to 10 ratio but lets work with 1 to 5 ratio as a start it would mean we would have 35k guilds give or take that would reach 12/12 before the tier is over. and today we got 27k guilds with a registered 1/12 or better 94 days i think we are coming up on in this tier. And today we have when we are over 3 months into this current tier 5500 guilds give or take that have downed 1/12 so far that are not on the radar for 2/12 kill And if you look you will see numerous guilds that downed jin'rokh normal mode on March 6th 2013 that never moved beyond this in progression.

    we see numerous guilds that have failed or disbanded in this tier and quite frankly i am worried for the first time in 9 years about raiding in this game. And the impact this attrition will have on guilds looking towards the future, i am deeply worried and i am sure folks at Blizzard are as well since they can see the numbers even better than i can.
    There is 8900 guilds at 12/12, not 5500.

    That is exactly why cleaning %, especially looking at a moving success rate (i.e. the average success rate between each boss) is competely relevant since it shows the successrate between each individual boss.

    May I also ask you were you got this mighty fine number that you just pulled out of your ass that there should be a 1:5 / 1:10 ratio between 1/13 hc and 12/12 normal.

    That would have the need to make the easiest heroic boss (due to non-linear progression), relatively 25-100% harder than Lei-Shen Heroic, 400-900% harder than horridon is for 1/12 guilds.

    I mean, please, I would love to hear the logic between a 1:5 ratio, and why that is healthy.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #706
    It's stunning the way that OP completely ignores time as a variable. So much time spent making graphs, but it did not occur to you that there were more Deathwing kills because Deathwing was "current" content for many months longer than anything listed here? And again, not surprised that when T15 is new, less people have cleared it than have T14, which is old? Casual teams and pickup groups are still raiding T14 normals, for example.
    Ashin, Stormreaver
    South of Heaven

  7. #707
    Jin'rokh the Breaker 27248 (99.85%)
    Horridon 21655 (79.35%)
    Council of Elders 19545 (71.62%)
    Tortos 17262 (63.25%)
    Megaera 15640 (57.31%)
    Ji-Kun 14728 (53.97%)
    Durumu the Forgotten 12899 (47.27%)
    Primordius 12557 (46.01%)
    Dark Animus 11631 (42.62%)
    Iron Qon 10747 (39.38%)
    Twin Consorts 10576 (38.75%)
    Lei Shen 8976 (32.89%)

    With legendary meta gems and ilvl upgrades, we're approaching the point where 50% of guilds who kill N Jin'rokh kill N Lei Shen. We're at 32.89% right now, and there are still 2-3 months left in this tier.

  8. #708
    I feel bad about the Difficulty and believe to have read that the Devs increased Normal Mode Difficulty which is, because LFR exists, now aimed at experienced Teams with Voice Communication. And that excludes too much players. The Raids were already hard and creating a "Link Achievment or ignore" mentality that was necessary for Raiders to see some Bosses drop, and alienating Newcomers. Now the Raids are even Harder.

    I think Dragon Soul prenerf was perfect where I could pug and get full normal Mode down in week 2 (In a Group where all played well), with Gear being available from the previous Raid and new Dungeons while at the same time there were brutal Hard Mode Encounters like Blackhorn or Spine of Deathwing which less than 1% of the Raiders got down, so also enthusiast Hardcore Raiders got something to do.

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by Craakar View Post
    Very interesting read, I agree somewhat, but I've had this thought for a while and I've never really voiced it, so I just want to know what everyone else thinks about this:

    In ICC days, on 10 man Heroic, my guild killed Blood Princes HC (first kill) after being put down to 9 man after about 45s (video on YouTube if anyone wants proof).
    Now, if someone dies 45s into Horridon on 10m Normal, it is very VERY difficult to regain that kill. And you can make this comparison between now and WotLK with many many bosses, I think this is WRONG and should be changed but i'm dying to hear other peoples opinion about it on whether they agree or disagree, i'd appreciate any replies.
    I think you are way off base on this. It is a TEN man raid. If you can beat it with 9 people (essentially dying 45s in is like not being there at all), then why even bring a 10th person...

  10. #710
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashin View Post
    It's stunning the way that OP completely ignores time as a variable. So much time spent making graphs, but it did not occur to you that there were more Deathwing kills because Deathwing was "current" content for many months longer than anything listed here? And again, not surprised that when T15 is new, less people have cleared it than have T14, which is old? Casual teams and pickup groups are still raiding T14 normals, for example.
    I think you need to read the post again. Time, as a variable, is accounted for. The numbers provided by DisposableHero are based upon the two-month model that (though imperfect) shoots this argument out of the water.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-06 at 11:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Jin'rokh the Breaker 27248 (99.85%)
    Horridon 21655 (79.35%)
    Council of Elders 19545 (71.62%)
    Tortos 17262 (63.25%)
    Megaera 15640 (57.31%)
    Ji-Kun 14728 (53.97%)
    Durumu the Forgotten 12899 (47.27%)
    Primordius 12557 (46.01%)
    Dark Animus 11631 (42.62%)
    Iron Qon 10747 (39.38%)
    Twin Consorts 10576 (38.75%)
    Lei Shen 8976 (32.89%)

    With legendary meta gems and ilvl upgrades, we're approaching the point where 50% of guilds who kill N Jin'rokh kill N Lei Shen. We're at 32.89% right now, and there are still 2-3 months left in this tier.
    You're assuming people are still to reach Jin'rokh - his kills aren't climbing particularly quickly, which implies (obviously I could be wrong) that people have sacked off normal raiding before ever pulling him.

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I think you need to read the post again. Time, as a variable, is accounted for. The numbers provided by DisposableHero are based upon the two-month model that (though imperfect) shoots this argument out of the water.
    Yet the numbers in DisposableHeroes post shows nothing to indicate an increasing difficulty, if anything the opposite. Also, as we do not know the current sub numbers, and especially since we do not know the amount of players with a max level character, cant be looked at with 100% accuracy.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    You're assuming people are still to reach Jin'rokh - his kills aren't climbing particularly quickly, which implies (obviously I could be wrong) that people have sacked off normal raiding before ever pulling him.
    Thought you would have understood this by now after watching so much kill stats. This is something that happens every tier. The longer you get into the tier, the larger % of guilds that actually want to raid normals, have started with normals. Of course the kills on the first boss is gonna drop off in comparison to the next bosses.

    The reason that only 8% of guilds had killed Lich King after 3 months of ICC, and 57% of the guilds have killed him is not because people sacked off normal raiding before ever pulling marrowgar. It was because after a while, there are simply no (or almost no) new guilds getting into raiding.
    In fact, after the first month, a majority of the new guilds are either namechanged or server/faction changed guilds, guilds that disbanded and reformed, not actual new guilds.

    This is why looking at any data after 1/2 months is highly irrelevant. Also the reason your entire first OP fell flat on its belly. The longer a tier is out, the higher the kill % of all bosses become, and if one tier has been out for 18 months and another 3 months, go figure which tier is gonna have the highest kill %.

    If you compare ToT kills with a few weeks ago, and check how much the kills of each boss increased.

    Jin: +750
    Hor: +950
    Coun: +1100
    Tort: +1100
    Mega: +1100
    Ji-Kun: +1200
    Durumu: +1200
    Prim: +1100
    Animus: +1000
    IQ: +1000
    Twins: +1000
    LS: +950

    What this tells you is not that people are failing on Jin'Rokh is increasing. Rather it tells you that the amount of new guilds is smaller than the amount of progressing guilds. Which is only logical over 3 months into a tier.
    What is also to note is that a +950 on kills is a much higher % increase in kills relative to say +1200 on Ji-Kun. This is the reason why the kill % goes up and we can likely to expect a 50-60 kill% on LS before 5.4
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    There is 8900 guilds at 12/12, not 5500.

    That is exactly why cleaning %, especially looking at a moving success rate (i.e. the average success rate between each boss) is competely relevant since it shows the successrate between each individual boss.

    May I also ask you were you got this mighty fine number that you just pulled out of your ass that there should be a 1:5 / 1:10 ratio between 1/13 hc and 12/12 normal.

    That would have the need to make the easiest heroic boss (due to non-linear progression), relatively 25-100% harder than Lei-Shen Heroic, 400-900% harder than horridon is for 1/12 guilds.

    I mean, please, I would love to hear the logic between a 1:5 ratio, and why that is healthy.

    Dont include those that are in heroic content as they are not a normal mode guild they are heroic mode guilds

    I did NOT say 1-5 ratio between 1/13H and 12/12N you exactly high light the problem 1900 guilds sitting at 12/12 and 7000 ahead of it 12/12 is just the unlock mechanism for heroics since all normal mode guilds have basically been killed off right now you proved it yourself with your 8900 number when we filter away the 7000+ that have already entered heroics with success. we have almost the exact same number of guilds that are at 12/12 as that are 5/13H or better. for anyone that actually cares to look upon the numbers you can see we are getting a very unhealthy top 1% and they whine like romney about the other 47%

    there is 5500 guilds at 12/12 or on path to reach 12/12 in this tier if you raid heroics which you do if you have downed heroic bosses you are NOT a normal mode raiding guild regardless of how you pull it out of my ass as you think you needed to resort to when you runned out of arguments

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-07 at 12:10 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yet the numbers in DisposableHeroes post shows nothing to indicate an increasing difficulty, if anything the opposite. Also, as we do not know the current sub numbers, and especially since we do not know the amount of players with a max level character, cant be looked at with 100% accuracy.





    Thought you would have understood this by now after watching so much kill stats. This is something that happens every tier. The longer you get into the tier, the larger % of guilds that actually want to raid normals, have started with normals. Of course the kills on the first boss is gonna drop off in comparison to the next bosses.

    The reason that only 8% of guilds had killed Lich King after 3 months of ICC, and 57% of the guilds have killed him is not because people sacked off normal raiding before ever pulling marrowgar. It was because after a while, there are simply no (or almost no) new guilds getting into raiding.
    In fact, after the first month, a majority of the new guilds are either namechanged or server/faction changed guilds, guilds that disbanded and reformed, not actual new guilds.

    This is why looking at any data after 1/2 months is highly irrelevant. Also the reason your entire first OP fell flat on its belly. The longer a tier is out, the higher the kill % of all bosses become, and if one tier has been out for 18 months and another 3 months, go figure which tier is gonna have the highest kill %.

    If you compare ToT kills with a few weeks ago, and check how much the kills of each boss increased.

    Jin: +750
    Hor: +950
    Coun: +1100
    Tort: +1100
    Mega: +1100
    Ji-Kun: +1200
    Durumu: +1200
    Prim: +1100
    Animus: +1000
    IQ: +1000
    Twins: +1000
    LS: +950

    What this tells you is not that people are failing on Jin'Rokh is increasing. Rather it tells you that the amount of new guilds is smaller than the amount of progressing guilds. Which is only logical over 3 months into a tier.
    What is also to note is that a +950 on kills is a much higher % increase in kills relative to say +1200 on Ji-Kun. This is the reason why the kill % goes up and we can likely to expect a 50-60 kill% on LS before 5.4
    Keep dreaming last tier saw BEFORE 5.2 shipped out 24 guilds finishing 16/16N or better today we have 17 guilds that have moved beyond 1/12NORMAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so you honestly think another 6-7 weeks of this tier ( which is what we have left statistically) will make us see 24 guilds go 12/12 NORMAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or better really you honestly think the magic will happen and that we will get all those that are still at 1/12 to reach 12/12 in less than 2 months ( which is all you got left of this tier at the most really we have pasted the 1/2 point already this tier weeks ago. this tier is winding down 5.4 will hit the PTR any day now this tier is almost finished.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-07 at 12:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I feel bad for missing this comment; my apologies.

    Essentially, I think you're on to something. Normal mode completions rates are, for me, not really much to do with "seeing the content" because, as you rightly state, there's an easier way to do that for those who aren't interested. The problem we have is that guilds can't progress, and LFR isn't a substitute because that's just not what it was designed for. This is why I've mentioned the argument that LFR is needed if you want more raids to a couple of people; it just looks flat out bogus. During WotLK, when normal raids were easier, those who legitimately wanted to see raiding content could do so. LFR was born, specifically, because Cataclysm's raid content was too hard for everyone who wanted to raid, and those players dumped out needed somewhere to go.

    Just take a look at what goes on in LFR. It's horrible. A relatively fair and simple idea has been butchered because Blizzard decided it wasn't just going to be an opportunity for players to get into raiding and see some content, they decided it was part of the progression chain and only frustration has ensued since. It's legitimate audience, those who've never really raided and want to see what it's all about have seen frustrated people who'd like to raid but can't slammed in there with them, while the tier, weapon and trinket drops further exasperate this by putting in those who are clearing normal modes and have no business in it.

    It's an undeniable fact that people are running LFR who do not want to be running it. That means its design intention is a bust, and Blizzard are shoving too many people into the queue.


    Come on - that's got absolutely nothing to do with the point he was making.
    He was making the point that if we chop off 50% of the elevation of everest we are left with a tiny hill that anyone can climb, what my post points out is that the elevation is not a factor in difficulty which he insinuated in the reference of cutting the elevation in half. The Eiger at way less than 1/2 the elevation of most peaks in the Himalayas proves elevation is not a good tool to measure difficulty.

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Dont include those that are in heroic content as they are not a normal mode guild they are heroic mode guilds

    I did NOT say 1-5 ratio between 1/13H and 12/12N you exactly high light the problem 1900 guilds sitting at 12/12 and 7000 ahead of it 12/12 is just the unlock mechanism for heroics since all normal mode guilds have basically been killed off right now you proved it yourself with your 8900 number when we filter away the 7000+ that have already entered heroics with success. we have almost the exact same number of guilds that are at 12/12 as that are 5/13H or better. for anyone that actually cares to look upon the numbers you can see we are getting a very unhealthy top 1% and they whine like romney about the other 47%

    there is 5500 guilds at 12/12 or on path to reach 12/12 in this tier if you raid heroics which you do if you have downed heroic bosses you are NOT a normal mode raiding guild regardless of how you pull it out of my ass as you think you needed to resort to when you runned out of arguments
    Ehr? What the?... I dont know if I am understanding you correct, but you presume that any normal mode guild that reaches 12/12 normal will stop raiding.
    "Thats it guys! We cleared normals lets wait for T16!", or what?

    Of course you need to include heroic mode guilds in the data, as normal is a requirement for heroic.
    Heroic mode guilds has been raiding normals since heroic first came out, and it has been included in all other tiers contents data.
    Why the f would you not include it in T15 only?

    And yes, did you forget what you said yourself.

    A healthy level of completion vs folks 1/13H should be 1 to 5 ratio at least perhaps even moving up towards 1 to 10 ratio but lets work with 1 to 5 ratio as a start it would mean we would have 35k guilds give or take that would reach 12/12 before the tier is over. and today we got 27k guilds with a registered 1/12 or better
    That is exactly what you said, a 1 to 5 ratio between heroic content and 12/12. You said that since there are 7k guild in HC content 35k guilds at 12/12 would be reasonable. (or in other words, 28000 guilds being stuck on 12/12 unable to reach 1/13).

    I mean, honestly, I do not know what to reply since you are not making any sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Keep dreaming last tier saw BEFORE 5.2 shipped out 24 guilds finishing 16/16N or better today we have 17 guilds that have moved beyond 1/12NORMAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so you honestly think another 6-7 weeks of this tier ( which is what we have left statistically) will make us see 24 guilds go 12/12 NORMAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or better really you honestly think the magic will happen and that we will get all those that are still at 1/12 to reach 12/12 in less than 2 months ( which is all you got left of this tier at the most really we have pasted the 1/2 point already this tier weeks ago. this tier is winding down 5.4 will hit the PTR any day now this tier is almost finished.
    Not trying to sound douchy or anything. But I have no idea what you are saying.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  14. #714
    Jesus Zell that must have taken ages.

  15. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Ehr? What the?... I dont know if I am understanding you correct, but you presume that any normal mode guild that reaches 12/12 normal will stop raiding.
    "Thats it guys! We cleared normals lets wait for T16!", or what?

    Of course you need to include heroic mode guilds in the data, as normal is a requirement for heroic.
    Heroic mode guilds has been raiding normals since heroic first came out, and it has been included in all other tiers contents data.
    Why the f would you not include it in T15 only?

    And yes, did you forget what you said yourself.



    That is exactly what you said, a 1 to 5 ratio between heroic content and 12/12. You said that since there are 7k guild in HC content 35k guilds at 12/12 would be reasonable. (or in other words, 28000 guilds being stuck on 12/12 unable to reach 1/13).

    I mean, honestly, I do not know what to reply since you are not making any sense.



    Not trying to sound douchy or anything. But I have no idea what you are saying.

    Again you failed to read what it actually says let me quote it for you again ""that would reach 12/12 before the tier is over."" see i never said anything about 12/12 at the current state as you imply, And heroic and normal needs to be looked upon as separate events since if we dont we can do a case where we have a grand total of 20k guilds and 19.5k of them are in heroic and use that 19.5k as the excuse to say normal is fine see how many are in heroic normal is too easy blah blah. when the fact is you have killed off every normal guild in this case they stopped to exist since normal was a brickwall for them.

    But i know you will view that 19.5k in heroic as evidence that normal is trivial and needs to be buffed up and made a hell of a lot more difficult.

  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Again you failed to read what it actually says let me quote it for you again ""that would reach 12/12 before the tier is over."" see i never said anything about 12/12 at the current state as you imply, And heroic and normal needs to be looked upon as separate events since if we dont we can do a case where we have a grand total of 20k guilds and 19.5k of them are in heroic and use that 19.5k as the excuse to say normal is fine see how many are in heroic normal is too easy blah blah. when the fact is you have killed off every normal guild in this case they stopped to exist since normal was a brickwall for them.

    But i know you will view that 19.5k in heroic as evidence that normal is trivial and needs to be buffed up and made a hell of a lot more difficult.
    In ICC, 50800 guilds killed marrowgar in heroic and 48000 guilds killed LK normal.

    This would mean that ICC10 normals is the hardest normals ever created in the history of WoW by your logic, since not even HEROIC GUILDS can beat them!

    Seriously! How hard would normals have to be when heroic guilds cant even beat them!

    Better not! Check gunship kills! 71500 kills in Heroic. 48000 kills on LK still. So only 67% of all heroic guilds was able to beat normal T10! It must have been the hardest tier ever created if we go by your logic...

    How fucked up does normals have to be when not even heroic guilds beat them

    Do you see understand now?
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  17. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    In ICC, 50800 guilds killed marrowgar in heroic and 48000 guilds killed LK normal.

    This would mean that ICC10 normals is the hardest normals ever created in the history of WoW by your logic, since not even HEROIC GUILDS can beat them!

    Seriously! How hard would normals have to be when heroic guilds cant even beat them!

    Better not! Check gunship kills! 71500 kills in Heroic. 48000 kills on LK still. So only 67% of all heroic guilds was able to beat normal T10! It must have been the hardest tier ever created if we go by your logic...

    How fucked up does normals have to be when not even heroic guilds beat them

    Do you see understand now?

    Obviously you know you have lost the arguments of normals right now being easier than ever, heck not even Blizzard agrees with you and the new major feature is addressing the exact problem we have been pointing on for a while that some are to stubborn to accept that it exist. You obviously missed the point again that i was making ( which you always seem to do) the key issue is that there is right now so much damn blood on the brickwall in ToT that you cant see it anymore i got it. but trust us the brickwall is there and it is very real for thousands of mom and pop guilds this tier.

    And you frequently use clearing percentage are as good as ever blah blah blah blah as validation of your claims that normal mode is not to hard it is the easiest normal modes ever blah blah blah blah. the 20k guilds and 19.5k of them hammering out heroic bosses at various degrees you obviously missed the point where the thing is 500 guilds left only doing normal modes since all the other thousands upon thousands just tossed in the towel months ago and gave up smashing the head on the brickwall, You obviously missed that.

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I find this honestly rather funny. On the one hand you insist that it's not difficult but now you also say well it's subjective.... can you honestly not see how insanely ironic that is? Remember the part about ants and humans?
    I've been both an "ant" and a "human" and what I'm telling you is that NMs really aren't that hard, in game terms. They may SEEM hard depending on what kind of raid team you're with. If I'd been in my current guild in T11 no doubt I'd have cleared NM Nef in week 1 as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  19. #719
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    And you frequently use clearing percentage are as good as ever blah blah blah blah as validation of your claims that normal mode is not to hard it is the easiest normal modes ever blah blah blah blah. the 20k guilds and 19.5k of them hammering out heroic bosses at various degrees you obviously missed the point where the thing is 500 guilds left only doing normal modes since all the other thousands upon thousands just tossed in the towel months ago and gave up smashing the head on the brickwall, You obviously missed that.
    How about you make some sense? Since currently you make none.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-07 at 02:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Obviously you know you have lost the arguments of normals right now being easier than ever, heck not even Blizzard agrees with you and the new major feature is addressing the exact problem we have been pointing on for a while that some are to stubborn to accept that it exist. You obviously missed the point again that i was making ( which you always seem to do) the key issue is that there is right now so much damn blood on the brickwall in ToT that you cant see it anymore i got it. but trust us the brickwall is there and it is very real for thousands of mom and pop guilds this tier.
    To me it seems like you are the ones that lost them now that you realised how stupid your previous comparison was, as you completely gave up defending it. Lovely that you agree with me atleast that ICC is the hardest tier ever, since with both my method and your method, ICC was far harder than T15.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  20. #720
    You aren't taking into account that LFR launched at the end of Cata. There are actually quite a few people who only run LFR now. I wonder what the numbers for LFR clears of all the content look like compared to your number from the other expansions. Yeah, I know, it's stupid easy content that barely counts as killing a boss. But for a large portion of the playerbase, this is how they see the content.

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