Concerning LFR and what we can do to improve it...

[Deleted]

where i live i wouldn't beable to go the beach enjoy myself and get bck in 4 hours and on my server there isnt mmuch intrest in t14hc but i guess theres openraid for that, also it would make gearing my main alt harder as id then have to chose between the alt run and lfr ( my main alt is a hunter)

Take a while and think why there is not much interest for T14HC.

What would change if LFR shared lockout with Normal?

[clevin]

This is like talking electronics with my mom. (Not good).

Simply cant have a discussion with something you do not comprehend..

I knew you were a kid. Shows in the "but i don't have a choice" as if things are never your responsibility. We quite clearly comprehend things, we're simply pointing out that as a conscious being you do, in fact, have a choice. You've made a decision to try to be as good as you can be. That decision carries consequences. But no one is, in fact, forcing you to optimize your raiding toons that much. That decision is your choice. Deal with the fallout of it.

[ZakAtack]

In LFR, I am convinced that until there are rewards for playing well and consequences for being an asshole, you won't see an improvement in the LFR environment. As has been said many times before, on the internet anonymity + audience = toxic environment, generally.

There is just no real consequence for queuing up, autoattacking the boss, putting someone on follow, yelling and screaming at the tanks/healers after a single wipe, etc. And there's no difference in reward whether you try hard and do well versus afk'ing.

I know LFR has brought plenty of good to the game, but it's also brought a lot of negativity into one place. And based on its design and intent, I just don't see improvement possible.

[Deleted]

Take a while and think why there is not much interest for T14HC.

What would change if LFR shared lockout with Normal?

LFR sharing lockout with normal. My guess a bigger shift to LFR from the lower tiers of raiding. Either permanently or on a 2 week rotation.
Just imagine your stuck on an early boss you don't get more powerful gear. And there you have LFR with 12 chances to get more powerful gear. Sure skill is probably more important in this game but outgearing content is also something that is done to compensate for lack of skill.
So raidleader says we only raid every second week and the other week you go through all bosses in LFR and try to get gear.
That or we end up with last day before rest everybody go LFR do the bosses that we missed

And basicly a shared lockout wouldn't remove the fundamental problem, that LFR is a delicious antisocial loot pinata with instant gratification, succes is guaranteed.
Whether that is a good design in the long run i do not know, but I think that bringing in a social component would make the game more enjoyable and add to its longivity.

[HeedmySpeed]

LFR sharing lockout with normal. My guess a bigger shift to LFR from the lower tiers of raiding. Either permanently or on a 2 week rotation.
Just imagine your stuck on an early boss you don't get more powerful gear. And there you have LFR with 12 chances to get more powerful gear. Sure skill is probably more important in this game but outgearing content is also something that is done to compensate for lack of skill.
So raidleader says we only raid every second week and the other week you go through all bosses in LFR and try to get gear.
That or we end up with last day before rest everybody go LFR do the bosses that we missed

And basicly a shared lockout wouldn't remove the fundamental problem, that LFR is a delicious antisocial loot pinata with instant gratification, succes is guaranteed.
Whether that is a good design in the long run i do not know, but I think that bringing in a social component would make the game more enjoyable and add to its longivity.

Gear can only help you so much in a short time frame. An hour of wipes, getting intimate with mechanics and discussing raid issues is more helpful than an extra 13 ilvl on each player.

I've been in casual raiding guilds and pugs. A wipe will usually lead to pointed fingers and butthurt players. There's rarely good discussion or advice. Or even worse (which I was guilty of at the time) no one would say ANYTHING.

So sharing a lockout, I think would alleviate some issues. That and pushing back LFR release a few more weeks back to allow most Normal mode guilds to get a clear.

[thunderdragon2]

Take a while and think why there is not much interest for T14HC.

What would change if LFR shared lockout with Normal?

well my serbver is listed as "medium" pop but its deas in morning and afternoon

[Deleted]

I knew you were a kid. Shows in the "but i don't have a choice" as if things are never your responsibility. We quite clearly comprehend things, we're simply pointing out that as a conscious being you do, in fact, have a choice. You've made a decision to try to be as good as you can be. That decision carries consequences. But no one is, in fact, forcing you to optimize your raiding toons that much. That decision is your choice. Deal with the fallout of it.

Do you realise how much things you can apply that logic to? One could use the same logic to claim that LFR should not even exist.

Note: Not my viewpoint, just an example.

"If you do not get to see the content, it is your choice. You can chose to learn to play your class and find a guild that clears the content."

You realise how silly that sounds? Nobody would ever say that.
I do not get why it is okay to bash people that actually put effort into this game.
Yes, it is my choice to optimise my characters to suite my guild. That does not mean that I can't complain about the way it is currently designed, since the current design is shit.

Presume a player that does everything to maximize his character(s) for raiding.
That player is forced to run LFR. Period. No discussion about it.

[Frozenbeef]

blizzard spends longer on raiding content due to lfr allowing more people to see the raid, therefor normal/ heroic raiders benefit from lfr <3

[finchna]

Presume a player that does everything to maximize his character(s) for raiding.
That player is forced to run LFR. Period. No discussion about it.

If you choose to do this, from what I read, you should actually be happy it's available as it's an easy way for you to gear up all your characters for raiding.

Since you don't seem to have a regular group to use normals or heroic t14 to gear up your alts, without LFR you would not be able to gear them up except via VP and crafted gear -- which is quite a grind -- and you are all about using your time wisely and doing things outside the game, right?

So, if you snooze through LFR, well, appreciate it that your characters are getting geared, can raid, and you are getting a nice ride.

Be sure not to totally nod off as more and more LFRs are kicking folks who aren't active or have low dps or que heals and don't heal.

And you might want to talk with your parents about what choice means. What choices do they have? What choices do you actually have. You are making choices, decisions, about your time -- so complain all you want but also take responsibility for them.

[MoanaLisa]

Presume a player that does everything to maximize his character(s) for raiding.
That player is forced to run LFR. Period. No discussion about it.

Presume this:

Your suggestion to do something different with LFR is followed.
Raiding participation goes back down to the very low single digits.
Blizzard decides that creating a lot of content for very few players is no longer worth the cost and effort.
Raiding at the Normal/HC level gets maybe 1/2 small raids (6 bosses or less) per expansion.

It's not unimaginable. People that dislike LFR should learn to ignore it but understand what it does: It pays for and makes development of larger raids worth the effort.

[Deleted]

Be sure not to totally nod off as more and more LFRs are kicking folks who aren't active or have low dps or que heals and don't heal.

The secret is to do 0 damage and healing and still run around looking like you are not afk. People kick low dpsers, they dont kick people with 0 dps as they dont show up on recount. So just run around and die at the first excuse available. (i.e. at durumu, die at first maze).
If you actually wipe on boss, play the next attempt seriously.
If you get called out after a wipe, say that you just joined the instance.

If you choose to do this, from what I read, you should actually be happy it's available as it's an easy way for you to gear up all your characters for raiding.

Since you don't seem to have a regular group to use normals or heroic t14 to gear up your alts, without LFR you would not be able to gear them up except via VP and crafted gear -- which is quite a grind -- and you are all about using your time wisely and doing things outside the game, right?

I would rather have less gear and have less time to spend. It is that knowing that "If I do x my character get better". I would rather skip x (in this case LFR) and have less gear.

We do have alt runs but only 1 alt run. The problem is, even if you run ToT on your alt, you can still get gear upgrades in LFR. So you end up running ToT N, LFR and T14H each week on alts. I would much rather do just ToT N and T14H each week since then you would

1. Actually enjoy your characters more
2. Gear up for raiding through raiding

the problem is, that is not the most efficient way to gear up. As long as LFR remains the optimal way to gear up, it feels like you are gimping your character running it. I am rather glad that the next week I will only have to run LFR on 1 alt, so that is a step in the right direction. Still, the problem remains for me and several other people. I know a guy that ran HoF LFR 27 times in 2 weeks to get an item he wanted. (he used 27 extra rolls on the same boss, i.e. 29 loot opportunities before he got the item).

And this was in 5.2, so he got 20 coins from isle of thunder, used them all on 1 boss in HoF over and over again, got another 20 coins.
Think he also ran ToES 10 times in 3 weeks for using coins to be able to loot the boss several times.

He felt 'forced' to run HoF lfr 27 times to optimize his new character for raiding (was a reroll to a new character to be his main).

These people exist, they are real, and they are getting punished by the current system.

---------- Post added 2013-06-02 at 08:25 PM ----------

Presume this:

Your suggestion to do something different with LFR is followed.
Raiding participation goes back down to the very low single digits.
Blizzard decides that creating a lot of content for very few players is no longer worth the cost and effort.
Raiding at the Normal/HC level gets maybe 1/2 small raids (6 bosses or less) per expansion.

It's not unimaginable. People that dislike LFR should learn to ignore it but understand what it does: It pays for and makes development of larger raids worth the effort.

I completely agree with you.

I am not saying remove LFR. I am saying remove the need for normal raiders to run LFR.

Either LFR drops lower item level to make it irrelevant for current content
or it shares lockout with the same tier of raids.

As I mentioned several times earlier aswell, make the T14 raid drops become VP upgradeable for 50VP instead of 250VP to adjust the 'gear catch up'.

Let LFR be there for those that want to see the content / dont want to raid normals or heroics.
But please, it needs to be changed so that normal/heroic raiders are not forced to do it.

LFR is good as long as it does not get showed down the throat of real raiders as a must do.

[MoanaLisa]

The secret is to do 0 damage and healing and still run around looking like you are not afk. People kick low dpsers, they dont kick people with 0 dps as they dont show up on recount. So just run around and die at the first excuse available. (i.e. at durumu, die at first maze).
If you actually wipe on boss, play the next attempt seriously.
If you get called out after a wipe, say that you just joined the instance.

LFR is good as long as it does not get showed down the throat of real raiders as a must do.

If this is what 'real raiders' do, the game would be better off without you. The fact that you have this all in one post is sort of remarkable.

[Deleted]

If this is what 'real raiders' do, the game would be better off without you. The fact that you have this all in one post is sort of remarkable.

Thats what happen when you feel obligated to do something you do not want to do. Hey, the first few weeks I played seriously. Now, LFR has become about doing the least effort to make through it.

At first it was okay, playing at your best, doing 200% more damage than the average person in the raid, but after a while, you realise, that there are probably 3-4 people in the raid putting the same effort as you, and about the same amount of people completely afk / only auto attacking.

Then you realise those people get the exact same reward as you. So after doing LFR 50 times, you just cant do it anymore. You feel like if you even look at the LFR you would puke. You are so tired of it. So you just watch your movie and pay as little attention to the LFR as humanly possible.

I got to be honest, doing 0 damage is a bit overstated. I only did this on my protection paladin as it is prot/holy, and as a prot to get LFR loot, you needed to queue as ret (prior to 5.3) to get the retribution loot that you need as prot paladin, and since I didnt play retri, I had to queue as dps to get my loot, but I couldnt dps as I didnt play retri. So the leftover option was to queue as dps and dont dps. Which worked out the best doing 0 damage.

Now that you can chose your loot spec I can actually tank so that is good. As a tank you just establish enough threat to have threat on the boss for a while then you tab out.

When I queue on my warlock or my hunter, I dps enough to be top 5-10 on each fight. But if I go above top 5 I just stop dpsing a while and go to forums or something for a while. I carry my weight, nothing more. Usually to be top 5 as a hunter it is enough to put up serpent sting at the start of the fight and just click explosive shot and cobra shot the entire fight. So can do that while watching a movie.

On trash you just spam your AE button. Usually gets you into top 1-3 on the dps as 75% of the dps is AFK during the trash.

And yes, LFR would be better of without me. Doing ToT LFR over 40 times does that to you, I do not want to do it anymore. But still need gear on various characters. I would be glad to not do LFR, but need the gear.

That is the core problem with LFR, a group of 25 players is composed of 15 players that do not even want to be in LFR.

[clevin]

Do you realise how much things you can apply that logic to? One could use the same logic to claim that LFR should not even exist.

Note: Not my viewpoint, just an example.

"If you do not get to see the content, it is your choice. You can chose to learn to play your class and find a guild that clears the content."

You realise how silly that sounds? Nobody would ever say that.
I do not get why it is okay to bash people that actually put effort into this game.
Yes, it is my choice to optimise my characters to suite my guild. That does not mean that I can't complain about the way it is currently designed, since the current design is shit.

Presume a player that does everything to maximize his character(s) for raiding.
That player is forced to run LFR. Period. No discussion about it.

Your choice. You just don't have the integrity to admit that it has consequences that you don't like. You can choose to do everything you can to maximise your character... except LFR. Your. Choice.

Free will. Use or don't. But then, you'll either learn this or go through life blaming everyone else for the consequences of your decisions when you don't like those consequences.

[Rucati]

You don't get to see the raid content, but you get to see something more spectacular than dungeon content, and still something that doesn't compare to big raid dungeons.
Casuals that just raid LFR would still have something cool to see and have a good time,
while raiders get rewarded with being able to experience something that the normal casual players don't, ontop of getting superior loot.

Coming from someone who raids 3 nights a week, why should being able to experience content be a reward? We already get better loot, more complex mechanics, and the enjoyment of raiding with friends/guildies instead of random trash cans. I don't really see why they need to change LFR, to be honest.

LFR is pretty fine the way it is, easy content for people to gear up and for casuals to see the raid bosses, seems to me like they're accomplishing their goal just fine.

[MoanaLisa]

Thats what happen when you feel obligated to do something you do not want to do. Hey, the first few weeks I played seriously. Now, LFR has become about doing the least effort to make through it.

No, that's what's happens when someone is lazy and feels entitled to things without doing anything for them.

[Deleted]

Your choice. You just don't have the integrity to admit that it has consequences that you don't like. You can choose to do everything you can to maximise your character... except LFR. Your. Choice.

Free will. Use or don't. But then, you'll either learn this or go through life blaming everyone else for the consequences of your decisions when you don't like those consequences.

Yes, everything in life is choice. Yet you still do not understand the core problem.

And what? I do admit that it has consequences I do not like. Is that not what I have been doing with every post in here? That is what I am asking to get changed.

If I do not do LFR on the characters I have that need LFR, I feel like I did not do everything I can to optimise my character.
If I do not do everything to optimise my character, I get a very bad feeling since it feels like I am letting down the other 9/24 players in the raid since I could have done something to make my character even better.

So by extension, if I do not do LFR, I feel like I am fucking over the other person in my raid, and that is a terrible feeling that I do not like having.

So no, doing everything except LFR is not an option, since that feels even worse than doing LFR.

---------- Post added 2013-06-02 at 09:01 PM ----------

No, that's what's happens when someone is lazy and feels entitled to things without doing anything for them.

As I said, still carry my weight on every LFR run. You can carry your weight in an LFR while being mostly afk.
And yes, I am asking for LFR to be tuned in a way so that people like me do not have to do them. Is that not a win/win situation?

I don't know, maybe you find LFR fun and exciting or whatever, have not heard your opinion on it yet.
For me LFR is that boring choir that you find yourself bored to death doing but you know you have to do.
Going to the store picking up groceries / cleaning your room / doing homework / laundry whatever it might be you are doing.

[clevin]

Yes, everything in life is choice. Yet you still do not understand the core problem.

And what? I do admit that it has consequences I do not like. Is that not what I have been doing with every post in here? That is what I am asking to get changed.

I understand perfectly. You want to keep your choice in place and avoid the consequences of it.

Several of us are pointing out that it's your problem, not LFR's. You don't like the consequences of your decision to optimize as much as possible because, to you that means you need to LFR and so, instead of altering your choice and not doing LFR, you want the game to change to suit you. Don't you get how self-centered that sounds? "The world's not the way I like it. Change me? No, change the world!!" What about all of the people who like LFR the way it is? They should lose out because your change works for you?

LFR's fine the way it is. It serves the majority of the people who run it as a way to play a game, see some of the raid content that they might not otherwise see and get some gear so they feel a sense of progress. It's not perfect, but nothing is.

By the way I *do* get that you feel like you're letting the raid down if you don't do everything possible. What you need to understand is that that is a self-imposed feeling (presuming your raid's not mandating that all raiders do LFR) and that it's very unlikely that a single piece of gear is going to really alter the outcome of a boss fight. It's also true for most raids that everyone doesn't need to be as perfect as possible to progress unless your raid is top 10 in the world and for most people playing slightly better will be a bigger 'upgrade' than another gear drop.

Most of all, this is a game. Stressing out about whether you're letting your raid down isn't really a healthy way to think and I'd encourage you to step back a bit.

[Deleted]

I understand perfectly. You want to keep your choice in place and avoid the consequences of it.

Several of us are pointing out that it's your problem, not LFR's. You don't like the consequences of your decision to optimize as much as possible, so instead of altering your choice and not doing LFR, you want the game to change to suit you. Classic self-centered teen. "The world's not the way I like it. Change me? No, change the world!!"

LFR's fine the way it is. It serves the majority of the people who run it as a way to play a game, see some of the raid content that they might not otherwise see and get some gear so they feel a sense of progress. It's not perfect, but nothing is.

Do not know why you have to keep making references making presumptions about my age, seems rather childish, to which I can assure you I am not a teen.

The difference here is that, this is not something new for me. This is how the game worked forever. In WotLK gearing up alts was pleasent and fun.
In Cata it worked, it was a bit more boring because you only had 1 raid to run in T11 and 2 raids in T12, no dual lockouts. Basically gearing up an alt was easier but a bit less enjoyable.

In MoP, gearing up alts just become a clusterfuck of timesinks.
It is not like LFR has been here since the dawn of time, LFR is kinda new to MoP. (Yes, LFR existed in DS but it was not the same thing).

Also it feels like you are the selfcentered one here.
I am asking LFR to cater to the masses, not only those, with a lack of better word for it, "lfr raiders".
You are the one asking LFR to cater to a lower part of the population.

Exactly what would change if for example LFR shared lockout with Normal.
To quote yourself
"a way to play a game, see some of the raid content that they might not otherwise see and get some gear so they feel a sense of progress."
What would change about that? People could still do LFR, get to see the content, get gear.

[Belize]

Well, players that don't raid would still have more content then before, which is essentially the problem atm. I want LFR to be an amazing experience just like raids, however i want it to be seperate content from Normal/Heroic raid dungeons.

You do realize that for the common family father/mother etc etc, just being able to see the content and be part of a raiding group is pretty great right? It's not everyone that has their entire friday/saturday nights dedicated to raiding. LFR does what it was intended to. Leave it alone.