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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Honestly, I do not think those changes would be enough with the buffs to druids plus the state of other healers on the PTR. I also think there are plenty of things that they can do to boost us without destroying RET and Prot.
    As I said, those changes would make us 'viable' due to utility (in the same way shamans currently are), not optimal. It'd simply be accepting the reality that our nerfs were massively shortsighted. I also conceded we'd still struggle for progress spots ;p. At the moment on ptr there's zero reason to bring us, even for the utility. The ONLY reason in the CURRENT state to bring us, would be if ret and prot were destroyed to the point it made more sense to bring a holydin than either. It was more a tongue in cheek comment than a serious suggestion though. (second time we've had one of these misunderstandings; i'm guessing sarcasm doesn't translate well on the internet.)

    Realistically, if there's not serious ptr change within a couple of months, I think most 'casual decent' guilds will be rethinking their setups to not include a holydin.

  2. #102
    I honestly think that the developers feel that we've had our moment this expansion in the first tier with our T14 4 piece, and they'll redesign our heals in the next expansion.
    I have nothing to back that, but if that's the case, then I'm going to re-roll for the next tier.

  3. #103
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    I honestly think that the developers feel that we've had our moment this expansion in the first tier with our T14 4 piece, and they'll redesign our heals in the next expansion.
    I have nothing to back that, but if that's the case, then I'm going to re-roll for the next tier.
    I wouldn't call a tier dominated by monks the first half and then disc priests the second half "our moment".

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    As I said, those changes would make us 'viable' due to utility (in the same way shamans currently are), not optimal. It'd simply be accepting the reality that our nerfs were massively shortsighted. I also conceded we'd still struggle for progress spots ;p. At the moment on ptr there's zero reason to bring us, even for the utility. The ONLY reason in the CURRENT state to bring us, would be if ret and prot were destroyed to the point it made more sense to bring a holydin than either. It was more a tongue in cheek comment than a serious suggestion though. (second time we've had one of these misunderstandings; i'm guessing sarcasm doesn't translate well on the internet.)

    Realistically, if there's not serious ptr change within a couple of months, I think most 'casual decent' guilds will be rethinking their setups to not include a holydin.
    You're wrong here, "casual decent" guilds don't care about their raid comp. They're more focused on just being able to make raids in the first place. Hardcore guilds will be the ones sitting Holy Paladin, and those players don't usually care what class they play, so no need to worry. That goes to everybody in this thread. The sky isn't falling. I played a Resto Shaman through first part of Cata when they were absolutely terrible and never struggled to find a spot in a good guild. Good players will get good spots, always, class comps don't mean crap unless you're bleeding edge.

    And yes, these bonuses do suck and it seems like the devs have decided we were way too OP for like, half a patch, so they can't make that mistake again. What boggles my mind is that they made such terrible T15 sets, blamed the lack of usage on players not knowing what gear to use, and then make MORE terrible bonuses for T16. It's like, maybe you should take a look BACK and see what worked and go from there, instead of blindly nerfing it and then struggling to find the right balance again.

    That being said, I don't worry about my spot. I bring solid utility and at least one Holy Paladin is always good to have around.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Wowalixi View Post
    You're wrong here, "casual decent" guilds don't care about their raid comp. They're more focused on just being able to make raids in the first place. Hardcore guilds will be the ones sitting Holy Paladin, and those players don't usually care what class they play, so no need to worry. That goes to everybody in this thread. The sky isn't falling. I played a Resto Shaman through first part of Cata when they were absolutely terrible and never struggled to find a spot in a good guild. Good players will get good spots, always, class comps don't mean crap unless you're bleeding edge.

    And yes, these bonuses do suck and it seems like the devs have decided we were way too OP for like, half a patch, so they can't make that mistake again. What boggles my mind is that they made such terrible T15 sets, blamed the lack of usage on players not knowing what gear to use, and then make MORE terrible bonuses for T16. It's like, maybe you should take a look BACK and see what worked and go from there, instead of blindly nerfing it and then struggling to find the right balance again.

    That being said, I don't worry about my spot. I bring solid utility and at least one Holy Paladin is always good to have around.
    Of course casual guilds don't care, they're casual! You don't have to be bleeding edge/world first to worry about progress spots. Our current raid comp is two priests, two paladins, two shaman, one druid and one mw monk. On five or six heal fights, who do you bring? I promise they're not going to bring a paladin if a combination of five of the others makes the boss dead faster.

    I'm not worried that I'm going to get gkicked for playing a paladin. I am wondering what healer alt I should try to get proficient with before T16 to ensure the guild's success since double pally on progress might not be the way to go.

    P.S. I also played a resto shaman in T11/12 and I did struggle to find a raid spot and play time in what I consider a good guild which for me was top 30ish. If I didn't mind that I was top 500 I'm sure I wouldn't have had a problem.
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  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by ViridianCC View Post
    They would use Holy Light if they could use it while moving and a fight was movement intensive, now wouldn't they? Better than doing nothing.
    I wouldn't say there are many breaks in other GCD's and cast times to cast Holy Light anyway. The 1% of the time I find myself casting it I just cancel it because something else more important came off cooldown.

  7. #107
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    Of course casual guilds don't care, they're casual! You don't have to be bleeding edge/world first to worry about progress spots. Our current raid comp is two priests, two paladins, two shaman, one druid and one mw monk. On five or six heal fights, who do you bring? I promise they're not going to bring a paladin if a combination of five of the others makes the boss dead faster.

    I'm not worried that I'm going to get gkicked for playing a paladin. I am wondering what healer alt I should try to get proficient with before T16 to ensure the guild's success since double pally on progress might not be the way to go.

    P.S. I also played a resto shaman in T11/12 and I did struggle to find a raid spot and play time in what I consider a good guild which for me was top 30ish. If I didn't mind that I was top 500 I'm sure I wouldn't have had a problem.
    That is where I am at as well. We have 2 paladins in our main comp, I started working on getting my other healers caught up just in case.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Wowalixi View Post
    You're wrong here, "casual decent" guilds don't care about their raid comp. They're more focused on just being able to make raids in the first place. Hardcore guilds will be the ones sitting Holy Paladin, and those players don't usually care what class they play, so no need to worry. That goes to everybody in this thread. The sky isn't falling. I played a Resto Shaman through first part of Cata when they were absolutely terrible and never struggled to find a spot in a good guild. Good players will get good spots, always, class comps don't mean crap unless you're bleeding edge
    Well in bleeding edge guilds we bench those classes,and we recruit more of the overpowered ones. We have not used a healing alt for progression kills ever in Mists. I also disagree on the "casual decent" guilds not caring about their raid comps or people not knowing how much each class can do.

    We're still months away until 5.4 goes live, personally I'll only be concerned if we get to heroic testing on the PTR and the situation is still looking as grim.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    Of course casual guilds don't care, they're casual! You don't have to be bleeding edge/world first to worry about progress spots. Our current raid comp is two priests, two paladins, two shaman, one druid and one mw monk. On five or six heal fights, who do you bring? I promise they're not going to bring a paladin if a combination of five of the others makes the boss dead faster.

    I'm not worried that I'm going to get gkicked for playing a paladin. I am wondering what healer alt I should try to get proficient with before T16 to ensure the guild's success since double pally on progress might not be the way to go.

    P.S. I also played a resto shaman in T11/12 and I did struggle to find a raid spot and play time in what I consider a good guild which for me was top 30ish. If I didn't mind that I was top 500 I'm sure I wouldn't have had a problem.
    Casual guilds raid less, but it doesn't mean we don't care what each class can do. We still need to kill 13/13H in a decent amount of time, and have some chill time before the next patch. For example our guild raids 9-12h, and lei shen is up next. If we brought shit classes (especially in 10m) we'd just slow ourselves down. We also don't have as many geared alts, so rerolls need to be planned and geared well in advance to not waste time. If we have to move away from holydin, we'd need to ensure a ret or prot in the raid, etcetc.

    Good players will get good spots, always, class comps don't mean crap unless you're bleeding edge.
    Class is just as, if not more important than player skill.

    As I said originally and Aladya just reiterated; nobody is rethinking solid roster changes just yet, but if it's like this a couple of months down the line we will be, and holy paladins will be vastly underrepresented next tier.

    That is where I am at as well. We have 2 paladins in our main comp, I started working on getting my other healers caught up just in case.
    Wouldn't worry too much about that. Your guild will/should have the foresight to gear you up before 5.4 hits in main/mainalt raids, giving you some playtime too.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    Of course casual guilds don't care, they're casual! You don't have to be bleeding edge/world first to worry about progress spots. Our current raid comp is two priests, two paladins, two shaman, one druid and one mw monk. On five or six heal fights, who do you bring? I promise they're not going to bring a paladin if a combination of five of the others makes the boss dead faster.
    You're in Angry, a very well-progressed guild, my post wasn't directed towards you. I consider players within your ranking as always min-maxing, so clearly you're going to try and go for what's best.

    Oggy said that things would be bad for "casual decent" guilds, which I don't even know what that would mean. All I know is that within my guild I'm not worried about spots because we're not hardcore and we plow forward with our best players, not our best classes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    Well in bleeding edge guilds we bench those classes,and we recruit more of the overpowered ones. We have not used a healing alt for progression kills ever in Mists. I also disagree on the "casual decent" guilds not caring about their raid comps or people not knowing how much each class can do.

    We're still months away until 5.4 goes live, personally I'll only be concerned if we get to heroic testing on the PTR and the situation is still looking as grim.
    Yeah but in a hardcore guild you're going to be benching certain classes no matter what since the goal is to get an optimal setup. Can you think of a single tier where you would've gone "Eh, it doesn't matter if we take this class or that class since they're exactly the same utility / dps / healing wise"? Also seeing as I play in a casual guild I can state that we don't really care about your class so long as you're a good player. Obviously we like to strike a good balance and make sure everything is covered and, yes, stack up on OP classes, but we're not going to make anyone switch or dump anybody because the class is a little subpar for the tier.

    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    Casual guilds raid less, but it doesn't mean we don't care what each class can do. We still need to kill 13/13H in a decent amount of time, and have some chill time before the next patch. For example our guild raids 9-12h, and lei shen is up next. If we brought shit classes (especially in 10m) we'd just slow ourselves down. We also don't have as many geared alts, so rerolls need to be planned and geared well in advance to not waste time. If we have to move away from holydin, we'd need to ensure a ret or prot in the raid, etcetc.
    I just think you and I have a different idea of casual. What you're talking about is a hardcore progression guild, whether you raid 6 hours a week or 40 hours a week doesn't matter, you're still focused on optimal class comps and making the most of your raid time and downing 13/13H before the tier ends. My idea of a casual guild is a group of people who meet for 6 - 12 hours a week and just focuses on killing stuff. They don't care about optimal class comp, they don't do the whole alt leveling thing, they don't run multiple raids, what have you. Casual does not equal amount of time spent in my mind.

    For example, I consider myself in a semi-casual guild. We raid 6 hours a week, we have good players, but we don't push ourselves beyond raid times, we don't bring in extra warlocks because warlocks are good on a certain fight, etc. Even for you guys, though, I think you're using class comp as a crutch. You said you're on Lei Shen, right? Well now you're vastly overgearing the fights compared to what bleeding edge guilds like Blood Legion and Method tackle them with.

    Class is just as, if not more important than player skill.
    If you're doing the content undergeared or trying to go 13/13H within the first month I'd agree with you. Beyond that, I say take the player and not the class.

    IDK, obviously there's a gap between our stand on the issue since we come from different raiding experiences. The only thing I can say for sure is that with players like Aladya and Method I understand their concern, since this truly effects them. Other guilds that are not even top 500 who are freaking out just need not worry.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wowalixi View Post
    If you're doing the content undergeared or trying to go 13/13H within the first month I'd agree with you. Beyond that, I say take the player and not the class.
    Just because someone doesn't clear all normal modes in week one, and then instantly start progressing on heroics, doesn't mean that swapping to a more optimal set-up would have no appreciable impact upon that group's performance. A group of really bad players who have no idea what they're doing are still going to have an easier time the more optimal classes they bring, just like everybody else.

    The only times that "bring the player, not the class" makes sense is in contexts where balance is irrelevant anyway, so bringing it up in a conversation about balance is sort of just wasting everybody's time.
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wowalixi View Post
    Even for you guys, though, I think you're using class comp as a crutch. You said you're on Lei Shen, right? Well now you're vastly overgearing the fights compared to what bleeding edge guilds like Blood Legion and Method tackle them with.
    Proper comp makes a much, much bigger difference on Lei Shen than "overgearing" just so you know.

  13. #113
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    I think you guys are missing the point, if a guild has the ability to swap players in and out to create an optimal comp, they aren't really classified as a casual/semi-casual raid guild. Casual/semi-casual raid guilds run with what they have, no matter what the class, because they don't have the option to sit and swap players to min/max comp. It's pointless to talk about how they could optimize their comp because it's not possible for them to do.

    As such, at the casual/semi-casual level, I think Holy Pally's are in a good enough spot that they don't need to worry about holding their raid back, there's no boss that will be impossible for them to kill because they're using a Holy Paladin.

    Now for more hardcore guilds, I agree that holy paladins aren't in the best spot right now, but it's very early in the ptr cycle, so rather than stress out about it now I'll wait and see what they have in store (yes I know about how they wont' make changes if you wait instead of saying anything, but there's a difference between feedback and doomsaying).

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Elovan View Post
    As such, at the casual/semi-casual level, I think Holy Pally's are in a good enough spot that they don't need to worry about holding their raid back, there's no boss that will be impossible for them to kill because they're using a Holy Paladin.
    I worry about holding my raid back. I raid 10 man with a shaman and holy priest. Previously I was always able to carry the healing as a Paladin. I can't carry the healing any more and we're left with a pretty poor selection of healing classes. It feels like we have to rely on the dps not doing stupid shit to compensate.

  15. #115
    I looked at battle net today (healer, ptr, and paladin forums), and I didn't see any thread discussing how lackluster our set pieces are, nor for that matter did I see any posts which discuss class imbalance that showed our weaknesses.
    I did see a few posts that still say that we're OP, which is kind of funny.
    Wish I could post from work

  16. #116
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    I looked at battle net today (healer, ptr, and paladin forums), and I didn't see any thread discussing how lackluster our set pieces are, nor for that matter did I see any posts which discuss class imbalance that showed our weaknesses.
    I did see a few posts that still say that we're OP, which is kind of funny.
    Wish I could post from work
    Pretty much that is the wow forums. You see a ton of people crying about our mastery in LFR and Normal Modes. Any suggestion about us being weak then gets flooded by these people.

  17. #117
    And you wonder why we never have any beneficial class changes...

  18. #118
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Nope I know exactly why. It is more likely than not why we got nerfed to begin with really. I find it especially funny when you see a disc priest making the post about our mastery being OP like the last one I saw on the battle.net healing forums.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    And you wonder why we never have any beneficial class changes...
    They look beyond the official forums tbf. They've mentioned it in blues and I've seen a few ideas and problems discussed on MMO only transferred into the game. They read these forums too.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Nope I know exactly why. It is more likely than not why we got nerfed to begin with really. I find it especially funny when you see a disc priest making the post about our mastery being OP like the last one I saw on the battle.net healing forums.
    If you're talking about the thread I think you're talking about that whole thing is so full of troll and awful that I can't even look at it.
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