League of Legends Lead Content Designer 'Morello' Scott talks about World of Warcraft

[Repefe]

Morello sucks at game design, Xelnath is WAAAAY better(he's the guy that was the key player in the Lock Overhaul for MoP before he left Blizz) I mean, look at the crap job Morello did on Guild Wars 1. 'Nuff said.

What are you talking about. Did you mean GW2 ?

Exclusive content=Heroics.

There's a lot of exclusive content in the game.

I've never understood the complaint about this.

Many players don't see increased difficulty as exclusive content. It's the same content with higher difficulty. Higher ilvl on gear ... same problem. It's not exclusive enough.

LoL is a joke.

You can get your PvP daily done by killing bots.
Enough said.

Who the fuck cares about LoL daily xD. It does not give you rp, it does not give you more xp. All you get is slightly more IP that's useless for you after playing for some time anyway.

[Duronos]

Many players don't see increased difficulty as exclusive content. It's the same content with higher difficulty. Higher ilvl on gear ... same problem. It's not exclusive enough.

That's a big thing there, it's the same raid but just harder and in an MMO like WoW that just doesn't suit me in the long run, I liked it back in BC knowing that I had SSC to do after Karazhan/Gruuls/Magetheridon.

Raid Finder just kills a lot of the feeling, there is no effort really to get into it outside of doing some easy 5 man's, getting some gear that doesn't take that long and you just click and you're in an easy raid... How can it even be considered raiding?

---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 01:27 AM ----------

Here's the problem, they are focused so much on raiding that the rest of their game just sucks and they toy with raiding so much that it's like a huge clusterfuck of ideas all put into a blender and it ends up tasting like a pile of shit.

---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 01:30 AM ----------

I don't know that lead design is the same thing on a super complex mmo such as Wow or Swtor or Eve online with lots of additional content, many dimensions, lots of depth, a narrative which has to be grown, big player groups, and a legacy of many years which has to be maintained, as compared to a super simple game such as LoL whose core gameplay designs are actually not original and not invented by Riot Game, which is basically just bringing out x champions / month, with small number of players per game, no narrative, no complexity, no legacy to be adressed.

So I would be much more interested in the opinions of designers from Swtor or Eve Online than from LoL, in the same way I'm not sure that lead designer of a space station is really comparable to lead designer of skateboards.

Was the MMO genre created by Blizzard, no. Was the MOBA genre created by Riot, no. They just took the genre and made it popular.

LoL has a legacy, it took SC down from #1 for most popular Esport. I love watching SC but to say that LoL has no legacy? Sorry but don't do that, this isn't even opinion based, this is completely factual.

[Mooninites]

My respone to him was this

Wrath of the Lich King was the most successful expansion in WoW history. It peaked at 12.3 million subscribers, it also had a fair amount of accessibility, significantly more than The Burning Crusade. You cannot argue with results and most people look at Burning Crusade as one of the best expansions but thats because they look with 'rose tinted glasses'. They don't take into account the massive rep grinds, the inaccessibility of content in general (not just raids), and absolutely terrible class balance. Class balance is in a way, indirectly linked to accessibility. I played a Shadow Priest when they had awful numbers, you were pretty much just there to be a mana battery and thats it. If a group already had a Shadow priest that was decent, I couldn't get in the raid or guild because why would they want a class with terrible dps. The point I'm getting at, was this directly affected accessibility for not just me but all shadow priests.

The same is true for League of Legends. Not everything has to be easy, but things should be accessible. Champions, specifically should be accessible, yet there are some that remain largely inaccessible. The fact is, it's incredibly difficult to succeed with champions like Ziggs or Wukong or Viktor at a high level because these champions are just lacking. I have a buddy who is a pretty good wukong player, now granted wukong isn't absolutely awful, but he's certainly good, not a strong pick for any role currently. He has spent a lot of time mastering wukong, but because wukong is fairly weak, his accessibility to success with wukong is diminished than say if he had spent as much time mastering a champion like Elise. I know it's not a perfect comparison, but the point is still fairly true. Game balance should be the primary focus. And your comments are very concerning because it shows the utmost contempt for game balance. The Burning Crusade was arguably one of the worst expansions as far as balance, perhaps even worse than Classic (coming from someone who has played since the first month of WoW). It also had extremely limited gameplay (not just raiding as I said), yet you seem to think that it hit the spot. Will you refute what you said? Because quite frankly your idea of a 'sweet spot' probably would have killed the game if it had continued in the direction it had.

The idea of an MMO style game is just that, a massive multiplayer online which allows for accessibility to magnitudes of content many games cannot provide. Yet you seem to despise the idea of accessibility, which makes me wonder why you're even in the MMO business

Basically I think he's a bit off base. TBC didn't hit the sweet spot, WotLK did, it's evident by the 12.3 mil subscriber base. WotLK was also fairly accessible and as far as content I think TBC was very exclusive not just in raiding. People don't remember most of this though, they remember the good things. But TBC had horrible class balance, and that did affect accessibility because some classes were needed and others weren't that strong and there really was no reason for guilds to take them along. He seems to ignore this, and I wonder why he's in the MMO business if he seems to loathe the idea of accessibility so much

[Duronos]

My respone to him was this




Basically I think he's a bit off base. TBC didn't hit the sweet spot, WotLK did, it's evident by the 12.3 mil subscriber base. WotLK was also fairly accessible and as far as content I think TBC was very exclusive not just in raiding. People don't remember most of this though, they remember the good things. But TBC had horrible class balance, and that did affect accessibility because some classes were needed and others weren't that strong and there really was no reason for guilds to take them along. He seems to ignore this, and I wonder why he's in the MMO business if he seems to loathe the idea of accessibility so much

Hehe... Wooooo, I'm getting a good kick out of this one. Yes WOTLK had the most subscribers but here's the kicker, the game did really have the growth that Vanilla or TBC did. The subscribers were only at that peak at the release of WOTLK because of all the hype and such. WOTLK did not have a huge increase of subs when compared to Vanilla or TBC, think it was around 10-11 million'ish at for TBC... WOTLK had an increase at the beginning but never kept it going like it already had been. You can basically say it stayed put during WOTLK.

[Mooninites]

Hehe... Wooooo, I'm getting a good kick out of this one. Yes WOTLK had the most subscribers but here's the kicker, the game did really have the growth that Vanilla or TBC did. The subscribers were only at that peak at the release of WOTLK because of all the hype and such. WOTLK did not have a huge increase of subs when compared to Vanilla or TBC, think it was around 10-11 million'ish at for TBC... WOTLK had an increase at the beginning but never kept it going like it already had been. You can basically say it stayed put during WOTLK.

Wrath of the Lich King was released on November 13, 2008

On October 7, 2010 WoW reached 12.3 million subscribers.

2 years after the release of WotLK. You are factually wrong on this issue.


EDIT: I couldn't find the number of subscribers for TBC, but apparently it sold 3.5 million copies and I read (albeit a not very credible source) that TBC had roughly 5 million subscribers at its peak.

Additionally, of course WoW is going to have a greater growth in Vanilla, the game has to start somewhere. Going from 0 subscribers to 2-3 million is obviously a larger growth, but as I said, I reject this notion because the game has origin and its generally going to have its largest growth (atleast in the context of percentage growth) at the beginning of a game rather than later, but in terms of actually numbers I think you may be wrong on this issue as well

[Duronos]

Wrath of the Lich King was released on November 13, 2008

On October 7, 2010 WoW reached 12.3 million subscribers.

2 years after the release of WotLK. You are factually wrong on this issue.


EDIT: I couldn't find the number of subscribers for TBC, but apparently it sold 3.5 million copies and I read (albeit a not very credible source) that TBC had roughly 5 million subscribers at its peak.

Additionally, of course WoW is going to have a greater growth in Vanilla, the game has to start somewhere. Going from 0 subscribers to 2-3 million is obviously a larger growth, but as I said, I reject this notion because the game has origin and its generally going to have its largest growth (atleast in the context of percentage growth) at the beginning of a game rather than later, but in terms of actually numbers I think you may be wrong on this issue as well

5 million at peak, that wouldn't make sense. Vanilla had 7.5 million.

EDIT: All I was saying was that WOTLK didn't have the increase in subs that Vanilla or BC did. BC was definitely 10-11 million.

[Perkunas]

Wrath of the Lich King was released on November 13, 2008

On October 7, 2010 WoW reached 12.3 million subscribers.

2 years after the release of WotLK. You are factually wrong on this issue.


EDIT: I couldn't find the number of subscribers for TBC, but apparently it sold 3.5 million copies and I read (albeit a not very credible source) that TBC had roughly 5 million subscribers at its peak.

Additionally, of course WoW is going to have a greater growth in Vanilla, the game has to start somewhere. Going from 0 subscribers to 2-3 million is obviously a larger growth, but as I said, I reject this notion because the game has origin and its generally going to have its largest growth (atleast in the context of percentage growth) at the beginning of a game rather than later, but in terms of actually numbers I think you may be wrong on this issue as well

This is incorrect. At the end of BC there were over 10 million subs.

[Thallidomaniac]

Was the MMO genre created by Blizzard, no. Was the MOBA genre created by Riot, no. They just took the genre and made it popular.

LoL has a legacy, it took SC down from #1 for most popular Esport. I love watching SC but to say that LoL has no legacy? Sorry but don't do that, this isn't even opinion based, this is completely factual.

LoL dethrowning SC had just as much with Blizzard mishandling SC2 in addition to Riot pushing to make LoL a successful Esport. Also considering that the other MOBA games do have a scene in Esports, but don't have as big of a following. (DOTA 2 is still in beta, I would have assumed the DOTA 1 scene shrunk as people moved up to DOTA 2, and HoN appeared to fell off the map)

[Duronos]

LoL dethrowning SC had more to do with Blizzard mishandling SC2 compared to LoL's success. Also considering that the other MOBA games do have a scene in Esports, but don't have as big of a following. (DOTA 2 is still in beta, I would have assumed the DOTA 1 scene shrunk as people moved up to DOTA 2, and HoN appeared to fell off the map)

Shh, you're telling the deep dark secrets of Blizzard's horrible marketing.

It's good to see you in the GenD section friend.

[Thallidomaniac]

Shh, you're telling the deep dark secrets of Blizzard's horrible marketing.

Then again, we'll just have to see if DOTA 2 can follow what LoL did right, as well as fix what LoL did wrong. And there are a lot of DOTA/Valve fanboys out there.

[Duronos]

Then again, we'll just have to see if DOTA 2 can follow what LoL did right, as well as fix what LoL did wrong. And there are a lot of DOTA/Valve fanboys out there.

I don't see what the big issue is of one dethroning the other. Let both exist and be able to go to the same tournaments.

[Diabloss]

I have a vast amount of respect for both figures. It isn't an easy job, and I think Morello earned quite a bit of respect from many people with this statement. I know he grew more in my estimation of him, at least.

[Duronos]

I have a vast amount of respect for both figures. It isn't an easy job, and I think Morello earned quite a bit of respect from many people with this statement. I know he grew more in my estimation of him, at least.

As I said, nerf Shaco to the ground (my favorite champion) and I wouldn't care after his statements regarding WoW.

[Thallidomaniac]

As I said, nerf Shaco to the ground (my favorite champion) and I wouldn't care after his statements regarding WoW.

I would assume people are also mad at Riot (including myself to a certain extent) in general for fucking up the Karma rework.

I don't see what the big issue is of one dethroning the other. Let both exist and be able to go to the same tournaments.

Some of those fanboys I assume would be so devoted to the point that they won't accept those games co-existing.

[Chipperbane]

I used to raid - way back when in Vanilla. My guild, Ruin, managed to kill up to Twin Emperors, nabbing Instructor Razuvious and Anub'rekhan, as well, but we never went farther than that, because BC dropped.

But I never begrudged the people on my server who were ahead of us, and I never begrudged the people below us, either(though, really, that could be because they were never that far below us - item level difference between Scholomance and Naxxramas was only about 25 item levels, unlike now when we're just now getting to 90 ilvl differences.)

(To elaborate on the sheer discrepancy in item levels between then and now, the Helm of Valor was ilvl 62. The Dreadnaught Helmet was ilvl 88. To further this, the T4 helmet, Warbringer Battle-Helm, was ilvl 120. The Onslaught Helm, T6, was 146. In two whole expansions, the gear went from ilvl62, to ilvl 146. 84ilvl.)

Gear wasn't even well itemized back then, both ways. Hell, half the gear had weird assortments of resistances which weren't all that relevant until two-three raids in the future.

I just remember getting 8/8 Felheart, server first, and announcing it in Orgrimmar. Everyone congratulated me, because it was an accomplishment then. When I got my Dreadsteed everyone circled me to cheer because epic mounts were hard to get then.

Now the only time I see someone and think, "That person's done something in this game" is when I see them on a Skyscreamer, or with Storm's End. But aside from that, no one looks interesting. No one looks unique.

We went from some people looking cool, to everyone looking cool. And when that happens, no one looks cool.

That's why a part of me misses Molten Core, and Blackwing Lair, and Ahn'qiraj... and so on...

[Duronos]

I would assume people are also mad at Riot (including myself to a certain extent) in general for fucking up the Karma rework.

Nobody even liked Karma anyways...

[Afrospinach]

I prefer morello's ideas to the current direction.

So TLDR it would be fine for raiding to be exclusive if we had another feature awesome enough to entertain non-raiders

This has pretty much always been my thought. I really think wow should have been looking at raiding+, rather than "how can we shoehorn the entire player base into raids". I think WoW has got better on many levels, but this philosophy has hurt a lot of the early appeal for myself.

Basically I think he's a bit off base. TBC didn't hit the sweet spot, WotLK did, it's evident by the 12.3 mil subscriber base.

That is kind of hard to attribute. TBC most definitely was the period of subscription explosion. WotLK was more about retention.

[WillFeral]

I quite agree. The illusion of exclusivity and "neverending content" that Average Joe will never see is a core and essential part of the game. It gives people a goal to reach, impossible or otherwise.

as it stands, you can see everything every raid has to offer with ease - "hard modes" are just the same thing for a more dedicated crowd. It's not the same. People get bored. People unsub. People think back to better times with better content (better because they didn't get to wear it out) and lose the inclination to keep playing.

Like it or not, on some primal level, people WANT a goal they can't reach. They WANT content they'll only ever be able to see by looking up videos and getting involved in the community. It vindicates their investment. And if they DO ever reach it, it's an actual accomplishment instead of just the same thing everyone else in the game is doing.

THIS! Couldn't had said it better myself.If someone in charge over WoW developement had this same philosophy they could actually make WoW a great game once again.

[Duronos]

I quite agree. The illusion of exclusivity and "neverending content" that Average Joe will never see is a core and essential part of the game. It gives people a goal to reach, impossible or otherwise.

as it stands, you can see everything every raid has to offer with ease - "hard modes" are just the same thing for a more dedicated crowd. It's not the same. People get bored. People unsub. People think back to better times with better content (better because they didn't get to wear it out) and lose the inclination to keep playing.

Like it or not, on some primal level, people WANT a goal they can't reach. They WANT content they'll only ever be able to see by looking up videos and getting involved in the community. It vindicates their investment. And if they DO ever reach it, it's an actual accomplishment instead of just the same thing everyone else in the game is doing.

This would best describe me during Vanilla and BC. I still remember to this day getting into Karazhan for the first few times, that was an accomplishment and yeah I never got to BT but that was fine in my mind, at least the game had a shitload to offer. If a game has that much progression then it keeps you going, you may never reach it but if you do then the feeling is orgasmic, at least it was for me.

I don't think anything will beat the feeling I had going into Old AV for the first time, so much joy.

P.S. Thanks WillFeral for making me read the first page...

[Heathy]

I believe the raid finder unlocks way too fast, if they wanted to keep the value of gear for longer it should be held back a whole tier, with the final tier entering the raid finder after guilds start getting heroic kills or maybe even longer.

its a good idea but it does make each tier feel less exclusive.