Why is Exclusive content a bad thing to some people?

[LeperHerring]

I don't think any LFR advocates want a story mode. I think those that are against non-raiders getting epic gear want to believe that the LFR crowd just wants a story.

That's the argument I keep hearing for why LFR needs to exist in the first place rather than, say 5 man content designed specifically for casuals. People say they want to learn how the story line goes and that their money entitles them to that. Also, nobody cares about non-raiders getting or not getting gear, that's just a red herring.

Turning it into a story mode is "best" for whom exactly? LFR was designed to let non-raiders experience content in a very casual environment. The reward for participating in LFR is lower ilvl epic gear. Problem? (by which I mean valid problem and not elitist, destroy the raid pool, promotes baddies, gives "undeserved gear" type excuse)

How does story mode not let non-raiders experience content? Why do non-raiders have a problem with raiders having raid content that provides TBC style raiding? If the main story line bosses and encounters are in the story mode, why couldn't there be some other content that's just progression oriented for TBC raiders?

Hmm, attunements and no skipping of tier? And that benefits what part of the player base exactly? Surely not the majority.

It creates linear progression raiding like in TBC. It doesn't have to be for the majority of the player base, just that part that enjoyed linear progression raiding (the size of which you can go calculate from TBC raid statistics if you want). I'm not saying all the content must be like this. By all means have some LFR content that gives the kind of experience it does today, just have it separate so it doesn't ruin the linear progression feel for those that want it.

[Grocalis]

That's the argument I keep hearing for why LFR needs to exist in the first place rather than, say 5 man content designed specifically for casuals. People say they want to learn how the story line goes and that their money entitles them to that. Also, nobody cares about non-raiders getting or not getting gear, that's just a red herring.

If nobody cares about non-raiders getting or not getting gear, why care about LFR? What are you losing exactly?

[LeperHerring]

If nobody cares about non-raiders getting or not getting gear, why care about LFR? What are you losing exactly?

I'm losing progression raiding.

[zealo]

I'm losing progression raiding.

Progression raiding is still there in the normal and hard difficulty setting, it being simple in easy mode does not make the progression raiding that exists in normal and heroic dissapear. You lose nothing from there being a story mode in the same instance, you actually gain from it as raids will be larger and longer with more effort put into with a larger playerbase consuming them.

[Holtzmann]

How does story mode not let non-raiders experience content? Why do non-raiders have a problem with raiders having raid content that provides TBC style raiding? If the main story line bosses and encounters are in the story mode, why couldn't there be some other content that's just progression oriented for TBC raiders?

"Experiencing content" means seeing the environment, the pretty lights and the story, having a taste of the challenge and getting some sort of tangible reward for it. Basically, going through it in the same way as everybody else, even if the difficulty and rewards are smaller. That's why people like playing games in the Easy difficulty, so they can enjoy the gameplay as opposed to hitting walls they don't have the available time or the inclination to push through.

Thought experiment: make it so heroic-level raiders fight plain gray boxes in circular arenas and see how well they like it, even if the difficulty is huge and the rewards awesome. Take one element out of the system and the entire thing breaks down.

[araistlinx]

2) Raiding with only 1 mode of difficulty, and 1 form of raid. Yes im looking at you TBC. Why is it a bad thing to have this content aimed towards players who are on a higher echelon of playing or commitment? Even though only "1%" (insert any other low percentage from thin air here) of the player base raided, the game substantially grew in subscriptions. What was keeping people subscribing, when they "never got to see end game"?

The real question you have to ask yourself.. what did end game consist of for all those players in Vanilla, TBC, and early WoTLK if only "1%" of them raided?

First off....there was more than one form of raid....10/25 in TBC. And people were really glad to have the OPTION. Second thing is that Wrath had massive numbers for raiding, and it has been attributed to WoW's success of highest sub rates to that Raid availability to the masses.

[LeperHerring]

Progression raiding is still there in the normal and hard difficulty setting, it being simple in easy mode does not make the progression raiding that exists in normal and heroic dissapear.

Yes it does. That's the whole problem. It's not progression raiding when I've already seen the whole instance. The kind of progression I want is the kind I got in TBC where I was constantly making progress and seeing new things, instead of seeing everything the day the patch hits and then grinding it over and over in different modes.

You can tell me that I'm irrational or that I'm "holding it wrong", but it's not going to make the game any more appealing to me nor the millions of other people that have quit since the high times of TBC.

---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 02:44 PM ----------

Thought experiment: make it so heroic-level raiders fight plain gray boxes in circular arenas and see how well they like it, even if the difficulty is huge and the rewards awesome. Take one element out of the system and the entire thing breaks down.

That's what I'm saying. Put all the story stuff in a story mode so everyone can go experience it. Then make progression raiding that doesn't have those story elements or exciting environments and whatever that's simply all about linear progression.

[Grocalis]

I'm losing progression raiding.

You have progressive raiding. Stay out of LFR and utilize just the Normal and Heroic version of raids.

You don't need exclusive bosses for progressive raiding, you just need to have difficult encounters. If just having me see Lei Shen and getting purples in an easier setting is "ruining" your experiences, then maybe the difficulty was never the problem, you just wanted something special and shiny to hold over the majority of people around you, and now those shiny things are not shiny enough. I apologize, but you will not be getting that back.

You can tell me that I'm irrational or that I'm "holding it wrong", but it's not going to make the game any more appealing to me nor the millions of other people that have quit since the high times of TBC.

It's interesting you think millions of players actually follow your line of thinking. It's actually very far from the truth if you go anywhere outside of MMO-Champion. When "millions" leave, it's the casuals that are either just done with the game or angry about some roadblock preventing content consumption. Hardcore players are a rather large minority, around 15% from what I have heard Blizzard say, and most are still playing.

[Holtzmann]

That's what I'm saying. Put all the story stuff in a story mode so everyone can go experience it. Then make progression raiding that doesn't have those story elements or exciting environments and whatever that's simply all about linear progression.

Question: would there be any sort of gear or point reward for completing story mode in this scenario of yours?

[zealo]

Yes it does. That's the whole problem. It's not progression raiding when I've already seen the whole instance. The kind of progression I want is the kind I got in TBC where I was constantly making progress and seeing new things, instead of seeing everything the day the patch hits and then grinding it over and over in different modes.

You can tell me that I'm irrational or that I'm "holding it wrong", but it's not going to make the game any more appealing to me nor the millions of other people that have quit since the high times of TBC.

---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 02:44 PM ----------



That's what I'm saying. Put all the story stuff in a story mode so everyone can go experience it. Then make progression raiding that doesn't have those story elements or exciting environments and whatever that's simply all about linear progression.

You are condradicting yourself here. You claim you don't need a story or exiting environment, yet you whine on already having seen the place even when the encounters themself will demand a path of progression of the player with hundreds of wipes.

[LeperHerring]

You have progressive raiding. Stay out of LFR and utilize just the Normal and Heroic version of raids.

And that's the "you're holding it wrong" argument. It doesn't work like that, it doesn't fix anything and it doesn't make the game any more appealing to me.

You don't need exclusive bosses for progressive raiding, you just need to have difficult encounters.

Please read what I've written. It's not the kind of "progress" that I want if I can go and kill the same boss while AFKing in LFR.

---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 02:51 PM ----------

Question: would there be any sort of gear or point reward for completing story mode in this scenario of yours?

Honestly makes no difference to me, as long as that gear does not interfere with the gearing of progression raiding.

---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 02:51 PM ----------

You are condradicting yourself here. You claim you don't need a story or exiting environment, yet you whine on already having seen the place even when the encounters themself will demand a path of progression of the player with hundreds of wipes.

There's no contradiction. What makes "boring" stuff exciting is the fact that it's hard to get to see it.

[zealo]

There's no contradiction. What makes "boring" stuff exciting is the fact that it's hard to get to see it.

There is. If the story and the environment is not important to your progressive raiding, why does it mather where the boss is as long as its difficult?

[LeperHerring]

There is. If the story and the environment is not important to your progressive raiding, why does it mather where the boss is as long as its difficult?

There is no contradiction, sorry. It doesn't matter where it is, it matters whether I have seen it before or not and whether to get to see it I have to be skilled and dedicated and part of a well organized guild.

[Holtzmann]

Honestly makes no difference to me, as long as that gear does not interfere with the gearing of progression raiding.

Okay, now I admit I don't get your point. How does LFR interfere with the gearing choices of progression raiders? Besides making it faster for someone who's trying to bring an alt into progression to gear up (which should be a good thing), that is?

[LeperHerring]

Okay, now I admit I don't get your point. How does LFR interfere with the gearing choices of progression raiders? Besides making it faster for someone who's trying to bring an alt into progression to gear up (which should be a good thing), that is?

The problem with LFR isn't gear, it's the fact that it destroys the sense of progression. In TBC there was a long linear path of content that you could take on, and as you developed your skills and killed bosses you saw new things all the time. With LFR and easymode you see everything as soon as it's released and instead of progressing like in TBC you just grind the same crap in various difficulties.

[Grocalis]

There is no contradiction, sorry. It doesn't matter where it is, it matters whether I have seen it before or not and whether to get to see it I have to be skilled and dedicated and part of a well organized guild.

Then do it once, in the proper well-organized guild you love so much in Normal/Heroic. Done.

In TBC there was a long linear path of content that you could take on, and as you developed your skills and killed bosses you saw new things all the time.

So in other words, you would rather make sure 90% of the playerbase never sees the raid so that you can feel more special about it.

[LeperHerring]

Then do it once, in the proper well-organized guild you love so much in Normal/Heroic. Done.

You're still telling me I'm "holding it wrong". That argument doesn't work and it doesn't make the game any more appealing to me.

[Grocalis]

You're still telling me I'm "holding it wrong". That argument doesn't work and it doesn't make the game any more appealing to me.

Then move on.

[Holtzmann]

The problem with LFR isn't gear, it's the fact that it destroys the sense of progression. In TBC there was a long linear path of content that you could take on, and as you developed your skills and killed bosses you saw new things all the time. With LFR and easymode you see everything as soon as it's released and instead of progressing like in TBC you just grind the same crap in various difficulties.

Yeeeah, I'm afraid I'll have to go with the "yer doin' it wrong" crowd here. Unfortunately, if the mere existence of LFR bothers you so much, regardless of whether you're running it or not, then World of Warcraft might not be the game for you anymore.

By the way, why do you have such a big beef with LFR and "just grinding the same crap in various difficulties", but you don't seem to have anything against Normal mode, which a Heroic-level raid group would breeze through in a week after release? Isn't it repetition either way?

[Osmeric]

You're still telling me I'm "holding it wrong". That argument doesn't work and it doesn't make the game any more appealing to me.

You have the right to define what the game has to be for you to find it acceptable. Unfortunately, you've done that in such a way that you are unlikely to be satisfied by what Blizzard will be willing to do (since satisfying you will require dissatisfying a large segment of players who want something else.) The kind of exclusivity you are looking for is not going to be available from a mass market game except by accident, and won't be sustainable.