1. #1021
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Actually, the whole strength of WoW was its accessibility compared to the competition at the time. And considering just how much grinding it took to do some things back in Vanilla, that's saying something about the competition. Also, having to wait for upwards of an hour trying to gather a group to run 5-mans isn't quite my definition of "running casually", but maybe you just had your own dungeon group you could rely on.
    It showed that you can have both accessible content and "exclusive" content that are separate in the same game and be incredibly successful.

    I might not be the best person to ask this (although I unsubbed because of time constraints, I still like the game), but why are you here arguing about things that don't affect you anymore?
    Because the game was a big part of my life, I care about how it develops and I wish it will get fixed one day so I can enjoy it again. These forums are full of people that are not playing anymore, if you just want to talk with people that have active accounts you should go to the official forums.

  2. #1022
    Exclusive content is good. It motivates people with the fact that there is always something to do.
    Now, we re in a modr where everyone MUST see content. But you can't cater one content to 8m players, so we have now a fourth difficuly coming out?!?

    I'm all for exclusive content. I dont do pet battles because I abhore that childish polemon side of the game. Therefore its exclusive. And that's abaolutely fine

  3. #1023
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    That's just your opinion backed up by nothing. The reality is that the kind of gameplay I enjoy and advocate made WoW incredibly successful, the kind of gameplay you're advocating has caused nothing but continuously falling subscriber numbers.
    No, I think you're just not willing to reach a rational conclusion from the totality of the evidence, perhaps because that conclusion would be painful for you.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  4. #1024
    Its a bad thing because the current generation of players feel entitled to every single thing in the game, regardless if they are paying a subscription or not. Its across ALL MMOs that you see this. People just *want* something that other people have, but they don't want to put the same amount of effort into getting it. Players feel like that if ONE person has it, then they should have it too.

    It makes no sense to me and really angers me since that is one of the main reasons that I feel is making MMOs go down the drain in terms of quality and longevity. Sure, the casual players (which make up the majority of the playerbase) can log in and have tons of things to do... but the hardcore players quickly lose interest due to the carrot on the stick not being much of a stick.

    When I started up WoW at launch, I was a young kid. I barely knew what I was doing but I loved it. I remember seeing those higher level than me and more geared than me and thinking to myself, "Wow... I want to get that!" I didn't immediately thing, "Wow... why don't I have that? This is unfair." The idea of working towards something and finally gaining it was gratifying. There is no sense of accomplishment when you get something that was practically handed to you and all you had to do was log on. Working on a full set of T2 and finally getting it was something to be proud of. Sitting around IF, players would naturally gravitate towards you in awe. Its just like in GW1 when people would understand how awesome you were if you were walking around in full Obsidian, or if you managed to become a Jedi in SWG.

    I guess long gone are the days of when effort was a part of the journey, not a hindrance. I know I didn't feel satisfied when I ran my alt through all of the LFRs and thinking to myself, "Really? This was it?" as I gemmed and enchanted gear that was practically given to me.

  5. #1025
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    I was talking about established Heroic-level groups, which seem to be the ones complaining the most here. Unless a heroic raider went for an entire raid tear without an upgrade, LFR has nothing for them.
    A completely different story with flex-mode
    Plus, not all raiders are divded between 13/13H groups and groups still stuck on normal Horridon
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  6. #1026
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    No, I think you're just not willing to reach a rational conclusion from the totality of the evidence, perhaps because that conclusion would be painful for you.
    The totality of evidence is simple: your model lost WoW millions of players, mine made WoW one of the most successful games ever.

  7. #1027
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    If you want to put it like that, sure. Take the money of the 10% of players that want progression raiding and build progression raids for them. Take the money of the other 90% and build the kind of content they enjoy. That's the whole point. Not everything needs to be for everyone. The whole strength of WoW used to be that there was a great variety of things you could focus on. Today everyone is pushed to the same bland raid content through the million different modes, while in vanilla I could choose to just do 5 mans casually and be perfectly happy.[COLOR="red"]
    The issue is that content creation is an finite resource. They have to choose what to make, and at one point in WOTLK they realize that if people wanted more raids, they would have to make sacrifices in other areas. Trial of the Champion was specifically a single room because they needed to save the content guys a lot of time to make ICC and it's accompanying dungeons are decent as possible. They were so behind on some of the MoP content, that is one of the reasons DS didn't have anything really unique outside of Deathwing.

    As for heroics, I am perfectly fine getting more dungeons with great rewards, but I wouldn't give up LFR for it. LFR is a great system for me to see high end story content, as someone that didn't even see Kil'jaeden at SWP because I didn't want to bother with guild or PuG drama. I like the fact I can see these things and get loot, I just want the loot to flow more quickly.

    I did move on from WoW, a while ago. I get much more value for my money from other games these days.[COLOR="red"]
    So in other words, you are sitting on a message board of a game you no longer play, arguing about how bland content is that you have not even taken part in. This does not help your argument. It just makes you seem like a jilted lover complaining about his ex wife and how she never made out with you enough after being together for a few years.

    It isn't the game for me anymore, and hasn't been for a long time. Vanilla WoW and TBC were the game for me (and millions more people than today's WoW)
    You still use those numbers but I don't think you really understand where those numbers come from.

    The totality of evidence is simple: your model lost WoW millions of players, mine made WoW one of the most successful games ever.
    You model was irreverent to the games success, as it was not a driving force to why people played. I have already gone over this, so I will not do it again.

  8. #1028
    Actually I kind of agree that there should be some content that it isn't easy to see. I personally wouldn't be one of the people who had the time and dedication to get through it all, but it would give me a long-term goal to work towards - and perhaps more importantly, it makes the world feel larger if I know there's a whole part of it that I haven't experienced yet.

    Maybe it shouldn't be completely inaccessible for anyone, but it should take a lot of time and effort to get to it - not something that everyone can finish before the next patch.

  9. #1029
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    A completely different story with flex-mode
    Plus, not all raiders are divded between 13/13H groups and groups still stuck on normal Horridon
    Well, I personally don't see a lot of Normal raiders complaining about LFR beyond the occasional "boy, do random groups suck sometimes" complaint. Even when I was still subbed (about three months ago) it was very rare to see Normal-level folks who were stuck in a boss considering LFR to be anything but a handy way to try to get some more drops/points to push through whatever barrier their group was stuck in.
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  10. #1030
    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    The issue is that content creation is an finite resource. They have to choose what to make, and at one point in WOTLK they realize that if people wanted more raids, they would have to make sacrifices in other areas. Trial of the Champion was specifically a single room because they needed to save the content guys a lot of time to make ICC and it's accompanying dungeons are decent as possible. They were so behind on some of the MoP content, that is one of the reasons DS didn't have anything really unique outside of Deathwing.
    They did it in vanilla and TBC, during which time the game grew continuously. Look at the profit margins of WoW, look at history, look at just about any real piece of data and it's clear that the only reason to make sacrifices is greed of the owners. They could build the kind of game I'm talking about and still make a healthy profit, but they rather save money by stretching the same content for everyone. And even still there are players, not owners, but consumers that for some illogical reason defend that choice.

    So in other words, you are sitting on a message board of a game you no longer play, arguing about how bland content is that you have not even taken part in. This does not help your argument. It just makes you seem like a jilted lover complaining about his ex wife and how she never made out with you enough after being together for a few years.
    So I take it you've stopped even pretending to have an argument and moved on to ad hominems?

    You model was irreverent to the games success, as it was not a driving force to why people played. I have already gone over this, so I will not do it again.
    It was the key feature to WoW, the very core systems design. You can claim it's irrelevant all you want, but I have no reason to do anything but laugh at you.

  11. #1031
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    It's interesting you think millions of players actually follow your line of thinking. It's actually very far from the truth if you go anywhere outside of MMO-Champion. When "millions" leave, it's the casuals that are either just done with the game or angry about some roadblock preventing content consumption. Hardcore players are a rather large minority, around 15% from what I have heard Blizzard say, and most are still playing.
    Fact is: Noone knows what kind of player are leaving the game and even Blizzard can only gueass why they are leaving.

    You seem to think that most players felt excluded when they couldnt see the latest raid the same time as the worlds best players. But obviously the vast majority never cared if they see the raid at all... as long as they felt they have something else to do what is worth their time.
    And they would still not care if Blizzard wouldnt try to force all players in the latest raidtier at the same time somehow.

  12. #1032

  13. #1033
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Well, I personally don't see a lot of Normal raiders complaining about LFR beyond the occasional "boy, do random groups suck sometimes" complaint.
    well even for 100% normal mode raiders, there isnt much reason to run LFR
    As Blizzard made a buncha changes to reduce that, greater ilvlv gap, shared rep/legendary items, but with flex mode they are adding all that back in
    In GCs words "the lesser of two evils"
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  14. #1034
    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    The issue is that content creation is an finite resource.
    To be fair on this, Blizzard has fucked up their design process for WoW more than once throughout its lifetime. You already gave two good examples where it's very apparent they didn't work on it early enough, or developed ideas to start. They are semi-notorious for working slower than other companies as well, and I still don't see why. Sure you can design and redesign a raid encounter room, or part of a zone; but the amount they do it is just absurd. I feel like it's done to death, and than there are still unmemorable zones they create. Maybe because there are actually less artists working on the team than there used to be.
    Hearts are man kinds lock. If only everyone's emotions were a skeleton key, this world would be a happier place.

  15. #1035
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rami-Gilneas View Post
    Fact is: Noone knows what kind of player are leaving the game and even Blizzard can only gueass why they are leaving.
    well according to GC, most of the players that leave dont even reach end game content so........your call if you wanna believe that

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 03:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinChan View Post
    Maybe because there are actually less artists working on the team than there used to be.
    on the contrary they say there is many more people on the team than before
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  16. #1036
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    The totality of evidence is simple: your model lost WoW millions of players, mine made WoW one of the most successful games ever.
    No, the totality of the evidence is that early WoW was a success despite having a hardcore endgame, not because of it. Eventually the game saturated the market, and when they tried to go back to a hardcore style, it was a disaster.

    GC has repeatedly mocked the argument that "early WoW was successful because it was hard". Their evidence just doesn't support turning that correlation into causation. They tested that theory with Cataclysm and disproved it.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  17. #1037
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    on the contrary they say there is many more people on the team than before
    Definitely didn't feel like it during Dragon Soul. Mists of Pandaria though, certainly has proven that. But it still feels like the content is not being produced in mass on the artistic side as much as I would imagine.
    Hearts are man kinds lock. If only everyone's emotions were a skeleton key, this world would be a happier place.

  18. #1038
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    No, the totality of the evidence is that early WoW was a success despite having a hardcore endgame, not because of it. Eventually the game saturated the market, and when they tried to go back to a hardcore style, it was a disaster.
    That's just your opinion with zero backing. The facts are that when my model was in the game there were millions more subscribers. You can construct whatever kind of theories to try to spin that fact around, but it's not very interesting given that you have no sources or data to back your theories.

    GC has repeatedly mocked the argument that "early WoW was successful because it was hard". Their evidence just doesn't support turning that correlation into causation. They tested that theory with Cataclysm and disproved it.
    GC is the guy who failed to do anything but cause WoW's sub numbers to fall. Why would I care about what he has to say? Cataclysm did not test anything. It still had normal modes, it still had LFD, it still had badge gear. Some stuff was slightly tighter tuned in the beginning, but the underlying systems design was the same. Then they went back to extremely loose tuning and went further in the accessibility direction with the systems design and they lost more people.

  19. #1039
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    well according to GC, most of the players that leave dont even reach end game content so........your call if you wanna believe that
    "70% of new players dont even make it past level 10... "

    Thats one of the "facts" Blizzard knows. What they dont know is why they already stop playing that early.

  20. #1040
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    It showed that you can have both accessible content and "exclusive" content that are separate in the same game and be incredibly successful.
    Not really. It showed that if you provide players with a more accessible game than what the competition is offering, they will flock to it. World of Warcraft grew explosively early on because it didn't require nearly as much time investment as EverQuest did at the time. By the time Burning Crusade rolled in, it had already pretty much gone viral within game circles. Nearly everybody tried playing it at some point, and subscriptions balooned because there were a lot of people who had not yet played it wanting to try it out.

    Nowadays the market is fractured between many competing MMOs (specially in Asia), all of them featuring very similar levels of accessibility as WoW. The average gamer's tastes have changed since 2004. Many of the folks who played hardcore in Vanilla and BC have gotten into college or started working.

    If Vanilla World of Warcraft had been released today (with updated graphics, of course), it would fail miserably or end up stuck in the same level as EVE Online. Times have changed: its original market is simply not there anymore. What worked for it back then is not what works now.
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