New 5's Setup Idea

[0mnipotent]

So I've been hounding my RL friends that I play with to try out this comp I thought of a little bit ago but no one seems interested to try it because its "not meta" or "pro's don't do it". So I'm here to get your advice on it. Top lane would be any of the usual top bruisers, Mid lane would be any of the usual ADC's + Twisted Fate + Zilean, Bot lane would be someone good for 2v1 so Rumble, Irelia and Shyvanna come to mind. My thought process is that with triple mid you could apply enough pressure quickly enough for you to get that first tower early and open up lane roaming. With Zil and TF you get an extra exp boost and gold boost to help counter the sharing mid will do. Anyone have thoughts on this setup?

[Acry]

It will probably work 2/5 times - The way I counter the all mid trolling is that I tell the support to go mid, and then farm to 100 cs safely and alone and grab a bf sword really early as an adc, then go and brutalize the mid lane with my levels. I'm assuming the same strategy will work, except you would have to 1v1 someone, which isn't hard if you pick Draven/Caitlyn/etc.. It'll probably be fun for you to do with your friends, but it's most likely not going to get you free elo.

[Sj]

Mid is solo lane because it's the shortest and the XP isn't split with other champs. This way, your mid laner (usually AP carry) will level faster than other lanes. Your setup may work if you manage to get the tower down really early, but honestly I think it would hurt your early game more than anything else.

[Nikkaszal]

Hmm, if you don't actually manage to get the tower down really really early (the other team could send their jungler in to help freeze mid if faced with a setup like this) then you're probably gonna be pretty screwed. Your three mids will be underlevelled due to the xp split, and if you don't manage to get them a kill or two then all three of them are going to be dirt-poor in the gold department.

[Deleted]

So mid would share exp and gold among three players?

That might work in the very beginning, but only because of the surprise effect.
As the opponent, I'd send the jungle mid to hold the lane. Maybe even the the support but then the experience of the opponen't mid laner is also pretty low.

If the game goes on a bit, your team will fall behind pretty soon. I really don't think Zilean's and TF's passive can make up for the split farm.

Note that if you play that in a group of friends, you'll face premade groups as well. They will react better to surprises than a matchmade group.


Something that could work, if you want pressure on the mid lane would be a lane swap with bot. You could even pick a kill lane instead of a standard support.

The reasons why your friends don't want to play it, are a bit shallow, but you have to see it like that: if "pros don't do it" there might be a good reason for it.
What I don't understand though is, why they won't even try one time. To me playing with friends, even if it's just fooling around, is more important than winning.

[Slaughty8]

We sometimes do double top-no jungle team, with two heavy cc+tank/offtank champs, like singed + voli or panth+xin or jayce+garen (you get the idea) or even morde+urgot kind of team and veeery fast destroy top tower and move on.

[FoShizzleMyGrizzle]

APC scales lvl, adc scales on gold, top scales on pretty much both. Top is just sitting top farming, killing and pushing and being the bully that he/she should be.
The jungler pretty much justs farms in his jungle, watches/ganks lanes and wards enemy jungle for easy kills / buff steals / counter jungling. In the higher "elo" games, you'll see them building tanky with support items, depending on how far ahead/behind etc they are.

[Deleted]

This COULD work but can be countered by having heavy wave clear in mid and jungle. If their mid/jungle comes in, they can very easily defend against a push, especially if they send up a support too. Now, if they pick something like a Ryze or LeBlanc who have very bad wave clear with a Malphite in the jungle, then you could have a chance and getting the turret early.

[0mnipotent]

I would certainly hope that they would send jungler and support to counter us in mid. We would then gain the exp + gold advantage from tf and zil. Even if they just send their jungler to freeze mid unless he is double buffed there shouldnt be much the jungler can do to push a kill.

[Deleted]

I would certainly hope that they would send jungler and support to counter us in mid. We would then gain the exp + gold advantage from tf and zil. Even if they just send their jungler to freeze mid unless he is double buffed there shouldnt be much the jungler can do to push a kill.

If you play a standard game, you still get the exp + gold advantage from tf and zil

[0mnipotent]

If you play a standard game, you still get the exp + gold advantage from tf and zil

Yes but you don't get any extraordinary pressure. But if they match you with 3 mid they're gonna be hurting a lot more for gold and exp.

[Sj]

Yes but you don't get any extraordinary pressure. But if they match you with 3 mid they're gonna be hurting a lot more for gold and exp.

Those passives aren't going to be that much of an advantage most likely.

[Fencers]

Unless you do grab the tower early, you are putting 2 of 5 heroes behind in farm. Also giving up your jungle resources/control.

What this comp has going for it is unorthodoxy in the standard meta.

[0mnipotent]

Hmm I guess I can only try the comp out with some willing friends and report back with how well we can grab that early tower.

[meteo]

Big problems I see with your setup:

• Jungle left open AND no jungle pressure for your 1vs2 lane which means that lane WILL be dove at level4 without any sort of risk. Additionally the enemy jungler will be able to outlevel solo lanes if he clears fast due to having your jungle as well.
• EXP in mid only 36.6% per player (1/3 exp and 10% lane share exp bonus <-- please correct me if I'm wrong on that assumption. It's 55% exp for duo lanes). Add Zilean bonus and you are at 39.8%
• 2 underfarmed champions instead of only one

TLDR: You will have 3 underfarmed and 4 underleveled champions compared to 1 underfarmed and 1 underleveled champion [Assuming 1vsX lanes are played properly = those are behind and their AD + supp + jungler will be very far ahead of your mid lane]. To make things even worse, you will have no objective control which will put you even further behind.

You lose far too much by doing this. Putting the AD + Support lane mid achieves the same thing (pressure on mid, zone potential and perhaps an early tower) and the support can help the jungler on invades.


PS: Why do you think that shyv is a good 1vs2 laner? She really isn't. No reliable way to farm and no sustain. Her only strength is wave clear but she will be poked whenever she tries to clear.

[Acry]

Big problems I see with your setup:

• Jungle left open AND no jungle pressure for your 1vs2 lane which means that lane WILL be dove at level4 without any sort of risk. Additionally the enemy jungler will be able to outlevel solo lanes if he clears fast due to having your jungle as well.
• EXP in mid only 36.6% per player (1/3 exp and 10% lane share exp bonus <-- please correct me if I'm wrong on that assumption. It's 55% exp for duo lanes). Add Zilean bonus and you are at 39.8%
• 2 underfarmed champions instead of only one

TLDR: You will have 3 underfarmed and 4 underleveled champions compared to 1 underfarmed and 1 underleveled champion [Assuming 1vsX lanes are played properly = those are behind and their AD + supp + jungler will be very far ahead of your mid lane]. To make things even worse, you will have no objective control which will put you even further behind.

You lose far too much by doing this. Putting the AD + Support lane mid achieves the same thing (pressure on mid, zone potential and perhaps an early tower) and the support can help the jungler on invades.


PS: Why do you think that shyv is a good 1vs2 laner? She really isn't. No reliable way to farm and no sustain. Her only strength is wave clear but she will be poked whenever she tries to clear.

shyvana definitely not that good at laning, so agreed.. I'd pick jayce...much better for that indeed, tbh. i've seen some people get outpoked by a jayce in a 1v2 lane -_-

[ddsad2212]

Just to point one thing out. azingy tri bot lane jungle Karthus, had a very high win rate in season 2 where he would even zone the enemy from been able to do anything and resulted in a perma karthus ban at high elo vs him. Just some devils advocate, tactics like this will never work if no one explores them.

For example support been "bad" in 3v3 was a long held believe by many top tier teams, until one team picked leona and the rest is history.

Anyway while I think ideas like this NEED to be explored, I do not think setups like that are the right way to go about them and generally unless the tri lane is going to be pushing very hard I would prefer them in longer lanes to act as a way to zone the enemy, which will however leave you jungle open.

Tri lanes have 2 real problems and none of them directly relate to gold and exp due to how hard these lanes deny the enemy. The problem is that they will find it hard to zone in mid lane, while been in other lanes will leave your jungle open to be invaded hard.

TLDR: Ideas like this need to be explored, similar idea's where considered bad in 3v3, until one team used them and it is now the most played strat in challenger EUW.

[0mnipotent]

So firstly to address the Shyv thing, in my experience being able to clear under or near tower with her w and wait for them to get too cocky for a dive has worked well in my past but I'm not a high ELO player so perhaps I've always lucked out. I do feel like a triple lane would be able to exert enough pressure where the enemy jungler for sure would be forced to step in or lose lane which wouldnt allow them a free farm of the jungle, plus if you trip mid you could easily farm wraith camps while waiting for waves. I understand now that it will be hard finding people to convince to even try this setup and I may get griefed for it since I'm not using it at high ELO but I would love to hear feedback on people actually able to try it out in normals or ranked.

[Deleted]

The easier way to do this is just to swap mid with bot. At least on purple side.

[Axethor]

One huge problem with this, both your AP and AD Carry are in mid with a third player, reducing the exp and gold gain. Zilean passive is not enough to even equal a duo lane, so you will be very behind on levels. These are the champions that need gold the most.

Also, since you definitely won't get a chance to do this with random people without getting yelled at or reported, you will most likely be against another full premade team. They can easily just send the bot lane mid with their jungler hanging around, and now it's 3v3 again only they don't have to share the farm, it goes to the ADC.

Aggressive push comps can catch people by surprise and you can win that way. However a smart enemy can counter it, and since you are so behind on gold and exp you will most likely lose unless they give the game to you.