Rune for Rogues?

[Deleted]

I've heard discussion about Rune of Reorigination for Monks, Druids, Hunters and Shamans, but I haven't seen that many for Rogues.

I think that RoR could be extremely potent for mastery sub, since they can apply a high STR rupture and SnD during the proc. I don't know about the other 2 specs though. Combat is already getting haste capped, so unless they change priorities, they could struggle. And assassination would either gain a lot of haste but hit like a wet noodle, or hit really hard but not that often. it doesn't really seem potent for any rogues but sub rogues.

[D3athsting]

Rune is not the problem, subtlety is, no rogue with a healthy brain would pick sub for raiding, the reasons are explained in dryaan's post...

On a side note, agility is way much better than any secondary stat for subt and because of that any trinket without agility proc shouldn't be taken into consideration.

[Deleted]

I'd have to agree with d3athsting, sub as he put it is like working 40 hours plus 20 hours overtime a week for 40 hours pay, lots of extra effort for no reward, if it did become viable in 5.4 you would want to be lining up shadowdance with agility trinket procs every minute which would make renataki's and juju far better.

[D3athsting]

Sub won't become viable until they remove positional req for bstab and give it a decent aoe/cleave dmg

[Deleted]

Rune is not the problem, subtlety is, no rogue with a healthy brain would pick sub for raiding, the reasons are explained in dryaan's post...

On a side note, agility is way much better than any secondary stat for subt and because of that any trinket without agility proc shouldn't be taken into consideration.

I'm not a regular here. could you link dryaan's post?

[Coldkil]

I'm not a regular here. could you link dryaan's post?

Don't have the link here, but Dryaan basically made a full 13/13 ToT HM run as sub - his results weren't bad but still inferior to assa and combat by a sensible margin; in the end Sub may be fun but not worth to use in any raid enviroment at the moment.

As a side note: RoRO is a bad trinket for rogues. Our stat weights (especially for assa and sub) are so near each other that the trinket proc will only mess up things and give us a so small dps gain that even the Darkmoon trinket is better. Don't take it.

EDIT: here's the link to the thread http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2813-13-25m%29

If you go down some posts there are also the links to the videos, they are really cool to see to get a taste of what the issues with sub are.

[Deleted]

Don't have the link here, but Dryaan basically made a full 13/13 ToT HM run as sub - his results weren't bad but still inferior to assa and combat by a sensible margin; in the end Sub may be fun but not worth to use in any raid enviroment at the moment.

As a side note: RoRO is a bad trinket for rogues. Our stat weights (especially for assa and sub) are so near each other that the trinket proc will only mess up things and give us a so small dps gain that even the Darkmoon trinket is better. Don't take it.

EDIT: here's the link to the thread http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2813-13-25m%29

If you go down some posts there are also the links to the videos, they are really cool to see to get a taste of what the issues with sub are.

The thing is, if you balance your stats to around the point of where mastery is just higher than crit, you can get insane SnD and rupture numbers from that, which can even extend far past the proc itself. having a 120% SnD up for 35 seconds with the remaining stats normal can be massive.

[Coldkil]

The thing is, if you balance your stats to around the point of where mastery is just higher than crit, you can get insane SnD and rupture numbers from that, which can even extend far past the proc itself. having a 120% SnD up for 35 seconds with the remaining stats normal can be massive.

It's not, because during that time you'll have 0 crit and mastery rating which means a lot less energy regeneration and HaT procs. You'll be attacking faster and Rupture will do a lot of damage, but your BS spam will be much slower and not critting BS means less damage overall.

RoRO is a bad trinket for rogues because EPs are tied to each other and stacking a single stat will only make the others stringer reaching a certain point. It's the loss of the other stats that makes the trinket bad. Renataki, Bad Juju and ToB synergy with haste are much better options.

I'm not saying RoRO is a dps loss (because it isn't). But the dps gain is actually much smaller than one can think - it's all due to how stats work for rogues. For DPS monks and feral driuids, which favor a lot stacking mastery, RoRO is an awesome trinket.

[Fluorescent0]

It's not, because during that time you'll have 0 crit and mastery rating which means a lot less energy regeneration and HaT procs. You'll be attacking faster and Rupture will do a lot of damage, but your BS spam will be much slower and not critting BS means less damage overall.

He means as in refreshing SnD on the last second of the proc. As far as I know SnD snapshots mastery at the time of the proc. You'd be doing the same thing WW monks are doing, but with rupture and SnD instead of Tigereye brew.

[Coldkil]

He means as in refreshing SnD on the last second of the proc. As far as I know SnD snapshots mastery at the time of the proc. You'd be doing the same thing WW monks are doing, but with rupture and SnD instead of Tigereye brew.

Again, Monks can do this with great effect because the stacked mastery doesn't impact negatively on the other stats. Rogues on the contrary have this problem.

It's not about the usage of the trinket, it's about the class mechanics. I know it sounds strange at least, but it's the reality.

[shadowboy]

It's not, because during that time you'll have 0 crit and mastery rating which means a lot less energy regeneration and HaT procs. You'll be attacking faster and Rupture will do a lot of damage, but your BS spam will be much slower and not critting BS means less damage overall.

RoRO is a bad trinket for rogues because EPs are tied to each other and stacking a single stat will only make the others stringer reaching a certain point. It's the loss of the other stats that makes the trinket bad. Renataki, Bad Juju and ToB synergy with haste are much better options.

I'm not saying RoRO is a dps loss (because it isn't). But the dps gain is actually much smaller than one can think - it's all due to how stats work for rogues. For DPS monks and feral driuids, which favor a lot stacking mastery, RoRO is an awesome trinket.

HaT procs can be ignored. Those will just come from your raid anyway. Stats are tied to each other for *every* spec, not just rogues (for monks, haste = more energy = more chi = more tigereye brew stacks/uptime = better mastery). RoRO is just not that good of a trinket, period. Its only saving grace is the passive agi on it.

[Fluorescent0]

Again, Monks can do this with great effect because the stacked mastery doesn't impact negatively on the other stats. Rogues on the contrary have this problem.

It's not about the usage of the trinket, it's about the class mechanics. I know it sounds strange at least, but it's the reality.

The point is that you don't have 0 crit and haste during the time where the empowered SnD is actually active, because you're thinking about the point where the trinket proc has fallen down already. There's no class mechanic that makes high amounts of mastery devalue other stats.

@shadowboy: you can't cancelaura the proc.

[shadowboy]

The point is that you don't have 0 crit and haste during the time where the empowered SnD is actually active, because you're thinking about the point where the trinket proc has fallen down already. There's no class mechanic that makes high amounts of mastery devalue other stats.

@shadowboy: you can't cancelaura the proc.

High mastery = harder hitting finishers, making you want to generate combo points faster, which increases the value of haste. It's a bad trinket, especially for one coming off an end boss.

[Fluorescent0]

High mastery = harder hitting finishers, making you want to generate combo points faster, which increases the value of haste. It's a bad trinket, especially for one coming off an end boss.

The point is that you must look at the window where your haste and crit have been restored. I get what you're saying, and I know it's not a great trinket, but I think that nobody has got the point the OP was trying to express.

Slice and dice snapshots mastery at the moment of being cast. So does rupture. If you apply those during the proc, you then get a good amount of slice and dice and rupture (~ 35 and 25 seconds respectively) under your full haste and crit.

While sure, it's not comparable to how a WW uses it, because Tigereye brew increases all damage while slice and dice only works on passive damage, therefore only increasing haste and crit values slightly, that's what the OP pointed out and what has been completely neglected in Coldkil's post.

[Coldkil]

Slice and dice snapshots mastery at the moment of being cast. So does rupture.

Ok, let's put it this way. I agree that this can sound a good tact and in the end, it's how the trinket should be used. Anyway it requires a certain setup.

Assumption: you take Anticipation as lvl 90 talent (well it's the only one worth).

Trinket procs, what do you do?
a) you want to take full advantage from the proc - so you decide to refresh both SnD and Rupture; it's a dps loss because your unfinished rupture damage is trashed away (well, you regain the damage with new rupture but only partially)
b) you continue with your normal cycle, but now you have less energy regen so the cycle will be slower = less finishers thrown.
c) you plan ahead and store 10 combo points to refresh SnD and Rupture before the proc ends - the proc lasts 10 seconds, you during the proc you're basically spammin backstab only, and you have 8 seconds to get 10CP since the last 2 gcds should be used to refresh the buffs. This brings the two subsequent cases:

c1) you were at 0-1 CP when RoRO procs, it will be very unlikely you'll get the rest in an 8 seconds window
c2) you were high on CP and you end at 10 before RoRO is at 2 seconds duration - gcd wasted? it depends.

I don't neglect what OP says - actually it's a good reasoning and probably the best usage of RoRO; you'll dish out some good numbers if you set uop things correctly. But the real nviroment is a little bit complicated and requires some micromanagement which in some cases isn't simply obtainable (too low or high on energy at proc and such) because the proc is random and you cannot predict it like an old ICD trinket.

If RoRO was like the old trinkets, it would have been much stringer since you could actually plan the setup required for the mastery trick.

EDIT: i hope i have been clear, i'm not against anyone - i'm just pointing that there are better options for rogues and RoRO is not worth bothering.

EDIT2: if anyone can poit out clearly what i'm missing i would be happy

[shadowboy]

The point is that you must look at the window where your haste and crit have been restored. I get what you're saying, and I know it's not a great trinket, but I think that nobody has got the point the OP was trying to express.

Slice and dice snapshots mastery at the moment of being cast. So does rupture. If you apply those during the proc, you then get a good amount of slice and dice and rupture (~ 35 and 25 seconds respectively) under your full haste and crit.

While sure, it's not comparable to how a WW uses it, because Tigereye brew increases all damage while slice and dice only works on passive damage, therefore only increasing haste and crit values slightly, that's what the OP pointed out and what has been completely neglected in Coldkil's post.

The point I'm making is that to make ANY use of the trinket at all you'd have to gear more for a worse stat, which means that while you'll get an increase in damage during relatively small windows, and you'll gear completely wrong for your spec the rest of the time--and utter crap damage for the 8-9 sec of the RoRO proc that you're not taking any advantage of the proc.

I got the OP's point, and I got that Coldkil missed it. My point is that the trinket is gamey for little gain and encourages bad gearing choices. Trying to gear around a trinket is like trying to gear around a cooldown, it's just not worth it most of the time.

[D3athsting]

Is there anyone smart enough with scripting that could try to sim it with simcraft so we all can see some numbers and stop speculating?

[Scoop]

I was under the impression that Rupture did not snapshot.

[Femoris]

I was under the impression that Rupture did not snapshot.

i believe rupture updates every tick.

[shadowboy]

Rupture snapshots. It does NOT update every tick.