1. #1981
    Quote Originally Posted by sasofrass View Post
    To compensate the loss of embers from RoF, couldn't they just make immolate give you 1 ember per tick and 2 per crit?

    Also for CB, what if they made each stack of backdraft you have reduce the cast time of CB by, say, 10-15% per stack? Would allow decent burst, double conflag then near instant CB.
    RoF was about a third of our total Ember generation. That's not nearly enough of a buff to compensate solely for the RoF nerf.

    As for your second suggestion, it seems that they don't really want to make CB easier to use. They seem to feel that it should be in the model of "Hard to use. Significant Returns", however in PvP that pretty much means it's either impossible to use, or the returns are low enough that it doesn't matter. At the moment it's "Hard to use. Very little return".

  2. #1982
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Twisting Nether
    Posts
    674
    Quote Originally Posted by sasofrass View Post
    To compensate the loss of embers from RoF, couldn't they just make immolate give you 1 ember per tick and 2 per crit?

    Also for CB, what if they made each stack of backdraft you have reduce the cast time of CB by, say, 10-15% per stack? Would allow decent burst, double conflag then near instant CB.
    Not sure if the math works out for the immolate suggestion but it's an idea. I really don't think this game needs any more instant burst though, so I think I'd scrap my own idea of instant CB procs and yours as well.

    Gotta find a way to make chaos bolt less scary without killing the spec. Hence my idea of smaller chaos bolts more often or taking away the guaranteed crit. If they kept the damage exactly the same as it is right now, they really need to lower the cast time and let us use it not often.

  3. #1983
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Spook central
    Posts
    4,159
    Glyph of chaos bolt: Your Chaos Bolts use only half as many embers and only take half as long to cast but only do half as much damage.

    (it would be sub-optimal in PvE since you could not cleave as well with smaller chaos bolts assuming 1 CB still consumed three charges of Havoc, but you would be far more likely to actually get a cast off in PvP)
    Last edited by Grubjuice; 2013-07-22 at 08:46 PM.

  4. #1984
    Stood in the Fire sasofrass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    381
    What about something completely unique with chaos bolt:

    It has two uses, one use to begin the cast and the second use to fire the cast.

    You can hit the cast twice quickly for a low damaging chaos bolt but making it instant or you can hit the cast once and let the cast time build up, the longer the cast the harder the bolt hits. Maybe have it max around 5 seconds or so? Would make it hard to use but with a significant return. Would also make using it specifically with UR (and with the glyph) even more potent. Something maybe like for every 0.1 second you charge it up it deals 1% more damage, up to 5.0 seconds (50% more damage). To include haste, have it reduce the maximum charge up cast but still have it max at 50%. Hmm.

    It might sound complex or complicated, but this just came off the top of my head. Thoughts?


    Edit:

    My thought process is instead of adding something dull and common (like just some number changes) it gives you the ability to control your bolt, charge it up, and deal the damage you want. It also adds a new mechanic to casting abilities and gives destro a more unique feel.
    Last edited by sasofrass; 2013-07-22 at 08:51 PM.

  5. #1985
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Spook central
    Posts
    4,159
    like a limit break

    Chaos Bolt: You begin to channel the spell and after 4 seconds it fires at 100% damage, if you move, stopcasting, or are interrupted before the channel complete, the spell still fires but only does x% damage equal to the % of the total 4 seconds you were able to channel.

    (1 second = 25%dmg, 2 seconds = 50%dmg, etc.)
    Last edited by Grubjuice; 2013-07-22 at 08:51 PM.

  6. #1986
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Twisting Nether
    Posts
    674
    Quote Originally Posted by justinmccray111 View Post
    Stop posting...??

    Okay.. Since you're not a moderator you cannot say this.

    And that person you were replying to is correct. Warlocks had one viable spec in Cataclysm, and that was affliction.

    You must not remember or just didnt play in cataclysm. Why do you think the Devs revamped Destro and Demo more than Affliction?

    - - - Updated - - -

    @ Kil.. Destro is still viable in 5.4...
    A few destro locks stayed with the specs and managed to do well. Thing is, good players can do well with any spec, you're just going to have a much harder time than if you were playing a better spec. So yes, the only really viable spec was affliction but some great players could make it to glad. Just like I'm sure a great warrior could make it to glad as fury, he would just have a hell of a time doing it.

    And what do you mean destro is viable in 5.4? Nobody knows which spec will be viable since they haven't done any of their numbers passes. As it stands however, without the current MF and KJC, destro is mechanically not viable in RBGs and arenas respectively.

  7. #1987
    Epic!
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    France, Illidan-EU
    Posts
    1,744
    Glyph of chaos bolt: Your Chaos Bolts use only half as many embers and only take half as long to cast but only do half as much damage.
    They could do that baseline and have CB only use one Havoc charge.
    Perhaps PvP boyz wouldn't complain about it anymore if it did only half the damage in their combatlog.
    Android App : World of Quizzcraft
    Test your knowledge of WoW with 1200 questions and 80 achievements!

    Inactive since 09/2013

  8. #1988
    Stood in the Fire Queen Ultima's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Ireland, home of the Potato, Whisky, Drunks and Drunk Fighting Tournaments
    Posts
    496
    Quote Originally Posted by sasofrass View Post
    What about something completely unique with chaos bolt:

    It has two uses, one use to begin the cast and the second use to fire the cast.

    You can hit the cast twice quickly for a low damaging chaos bolt but making it instant or you can hit the cast once and let the cast time build up, the longer the cast the harder the bolt hits. Maybe have it max around 5 seconds or so? Would make it hard to use but with a significant return. Would also make using it specifically with UR (and with the glyph) even more potent. Something maybe like for every 0.1 second you charge it up it deals 1% more damage, up to 5.0 seconds (50% more damage).

    It might sound complex or complicated, but this just came off the top of my head. Thoughts?


    Edit:

    My thought process is instead of adding something dull and common (like just some number changes) it gives you the ability to control your bolt, charge it up, and deal the damage you want. It also adds a new mechanic to casting abilities and gives destro a more unique feel.
    It sounds interesting. I'd be worried that using it instantly would defeat the purpose of the mana-regen, leading to a mana dip for people who only use it instantly, but it would be an interesting fix in PvP if Blizz could work out the Tech for it, and it would give Destro a little bit more complexity arguably (which is what we need after RoF went bye-bye). The question is if people would complain that in PvE they "have to" cast for 5 seconds straight to get maximum DPS.

  9. #1989
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Twisting Nether
    Posts
    674
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    like a limit break

    Chaos Bolt: You begin to channel the spell and after 4 seconds it fires at 100% damage, if you move, stopcasting, or are interrupted, the spell still fires but only does x% damage equal to the % of the total 4 seconds you were able to channel.

    (1 second = 25%dmg, 2 seconds = 50%dmg, etc.)
    I like the idea for making us a lot better in PvP, but I'm not sure it would help with making people less afraid of CB and therefore less likely to cry about it. It might work in that regard since not every CB will be a big hit anymore, but of course we can just speculate.

  10. #1990
    Quote Originally Posted by sasofrass View Post
    What about something completely unique with chaos bolt:

    It has two uses, one use to begin the cast and the second use to fire the cast.

    You can hit the cast twice quickly for a low damaging chaos bolt but making it instant or you can hit the cast once and let the cast time build up, the longer the cast the harder the bolt hits. Maybe have it max around 5 seconds or so? Would make it hard to use but with a significant return. Would also make using it specifically with UR (and with the glyph) even more potent.

    It could sound complex or complicated, but this just came off the top of my head. Thoughts?
    It's a good idea but that's also the first mechanic I've heard of like that, so it'd probably require some mechanical magic work behind the scenes to allow WoW to do that.

    Perhaps the cost is tied to it's power as well?


    Or how about this?

    Make Chaos Bolt consume up to 10 emberbits. It consumes embits such that it puts you down to the next highest full ember. IE if I had 35 emberbits, Chaos Bolt would consume .5 putting me at 3 after casting. The cast time of Chaos Bolt would be proportional to the number of emberbits consumed. There would have to be some magic in figuring out the correct scaling of cast time/damage per emberbit such that the best way to cast would be with full embers, but that you could use it with less for a loss. Maybe have it floor at 5 emberbits or something.



    My idea is a bit less flexible, but I also think it'd probably be doable with the current game mechanics and not require wiring up a whole new one. Of course if I'm wrong and that mechanic is in the game then I'm all for your idea. It would actually feel like you're charging up to release something big that way.

  11. #1991
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Twisting Nether
    Posts
    674
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    They could do that baseline and have CB only use one Havoc charge.
    Perhaps PvP boyz wouldn't complain about it anymore if it did only half the damage in their combatlog.
    The problem I see is that this glyph baseline would make our big finisher hit less hard than an instant conflag. It doesn't feel right to save up a bunch of resources only to fire off some weak CBs. Then again, it would make us feel a lot more like a rapid fire machine gun. Would have to see how it feels.

  12. #1992
    Stood in the Fire Queen Ultima's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Ireland, home of the Potato, Whisky, Drunks and Drunk Fighting Tournaments
    Posts
    496
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post


    My idea is a bit less flexible, but I also think it'd probably be doable with the current game mechanics and not require wiring up a whole new one. Of course if I'm wrong and that mechanic is in the game then I'm all for your idea. It would actually feel like you're charging up to release something big that way.
    Your concept (consume an extra X% resource for proportional damage) is currently in the game (off the top of my head, Ferocious Bite for Druids). Sasrofass's isn't in those words, arguably they're similar mechanics that just need the ability to add a "cut off" so that the more you cast, the more resources you consume, press twice to finish the consumption and fire the spell, the Ferocious Bite proportional damage increase mechanic kicks in depending on how long you casted/how many resources you consumed, but there'd probably be a few bugs to fix.

  13. #1993
    Stood in the Fire sasofrass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    381
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    My idea is a bit less flexible, but I also think it'd probably be doable with the current game mechanics and not require wiring up a whole new one. Of course if I'm wrong and that mechanic is in the game then I'm all for your idea. It would actually feel like you're charging up to release something big that way.
    That's how I feel about it. I feel like Blizzard wants chaos bolt to be this very powerful, high damage dealing ability but have a poor implementation of it. I made a list of how the percentage increments could increase, making it weak to begin but incredibly devastating towards the end:

    cast %
    -------------
    0.1 1
    0.2 2
    0.3 3
    0.4 4
    0.5 5
    0.6 6
    0.7 7
    0.8 8
    0.9 9
    1.0 10
    1.1 11
    1.2 12
    1.3 13
    1.4 14
    1.5 15
    1.6 16
    1.7 17
    1.8 18
    1.9 19
    2.0 20
    2.1 22
    2.2 24
    2.3 26
    2.4 28
    2.5 30
    2.6 32
    2.7 34
    2.8 36
    2.9 38
    3.0 40
    3.1 43
    3.2 46
    3.3 49
    3.4 52
    3.5 55
    3.6 58
    3.7 61
    3.8 64
    3.9 67
    4.0 70
    4.1 74
    4.2 78
    4.3 82
    4.4 86
    4.5 90
    4.6 94
    4.7 98
    4.8 102
    4.9 106
    5.0 110

    Basically the percentage increases depending on the second it's at. Meaning if you're actually able to get off a 5 second chaos bolt, it's going to be doing an immense amount of damage, though 2-3 second chaos bolts will probably be more realistic. It will be a large hit but not nearly as large as a fully charged one.

  14. #1994
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Twisting Nether
    Posts
    674
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    It's a good idea but that's also the first mechanic I've heard of like that, so it'd probably require some mechanical magic work behind the scenes to allow WoW to do that.

    Perhaps the cost is tied to it's power as well?


    Or how about this?

    Make Chaos Bolt consume up to 10 emberbits. It consumes embits such that it puts you down to the next highest full ember. IE if I had 35 emberbits, Chaos Bolt would consume .5 putting me at 3 after casting. The cast time of Chaos Bolt would be proportional to the number of emberbits consumed. There would have to be some magic in figuring out the correct scaling of cast time/damage per emberbit such that the best way to cast would be with full embers, but that you could use it with less for a loss. Maybe have it floor at 5 emberbits or something.



    My idea is a bit less flexible, but I also think it'd probably be doable with the current game mechanics and not require wiring up a whole new one. Of course if I'm wrong and that mechanic is in the game then I'm all for your idea. It would actually feel like you're charging up to release something big that way.
    The ember bit cost is a huge drawback to any such mechanic change for CB I feel like. It makes things really complicate.

  15. #1995
    (2) Set: Conflagrate critical strikes have a 20% chance to increase the critical strike chance of Immolate and Incinerate by 10%.

    12 sec cooldown on Conflag translates into 5 Conflags per minute. This means 50 Conflags / 10 minute fight. If 15 of them crit (assuming 30% crit), then 20% (one fifth) of those that crit will trigger the set bonus. So, 3 Conflags will trigger the set bonus. The set bonus proc lasts 10 seconds so will give 1 extra incinerate crit at best.
    Bottom line is that the (2) set bonus for destro gives us 3 incinerate crits per fight, at best.


    Compare it to demo's set bonus:
    Soul Fire has a 20% chance to increase you and your pet's damage dealt by 20%.


    Destro's set bonus will be a bit better when aoe-ing compared to single target. But then again demo's set bonus also affects aoe, and 20% all dmg >> 10% crit on 2 spells, not to mention that it should proc way more often (20% on soulfire cast, which doesn't have a cd, compared to 20% chance on conflag crit >.<)

    More class balancing based on set bonuses pls.

  16. #1996
    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    The ember bit cost is a huge drawback to any such mechanic change for CB I feel like. It makes things really complicate.
    It's not really that complicated. And anyway, it's not like the rest of the spec isn't extremely simple anyway. One complicated mechanic thrown in amongst a bunch of mechanics that only ramp up in difficulty in raid situations doesn't seem like that bad of an idea.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by darlissa View Post
    (2) Set: Conflagrate critical strikes have a 20% chance to increase the critical strike chance of Immolate and Incinerate by 10%.

    12 sec cooldown on Conflag translates into 5 Conflags per minute. This means 50 Conflags / 10 minute fight. If 15 of them crit (assuming 30% crit), then 20% (one fifth) of those that crit will trigger the set bonus. So, 3 Conflags will trigger the set bonus. The set bonus proc lasts 10 seconds so will give 1 extra incinerate crit at best.
    Bottom line is that the (2) set bonus for destro gives us 3 incinerate crits per fight, at best.


    Compare it to demo's set bonus:
    Soul Fire has a 20% chance to increase you and your pet's damage dealt by 20%.


    Destro's set bonus will be a bit better when aoe-ing compared to single target. But then again demo's set bonus also affects aoe, and 20% all dmg >> 10% crit on 2 spells, not to mention that it should proc way more often (20% on soulfire cast, which doesn't have a cd, compared to 20% chance on conflag crit >.<)

    More class balancing based on set bonuses pls.
    The biggest problem with the set bonus is that it's RNG piled on top of RNG, piled on top of another heaping dose of RNG.

    Not only do you have the RNG of whether Conflag will crit, you then have the RNG of whether that Crit will proc the bonus. Only then do you then have the additional RNG of whether your Incinerates/Immolate ticks will crit when they wouldn't have otherwise.

    It'd be entirely possible to have a completely wasted proc just because Immolate or Incinerate didn't crit as a result of the bonus. 10% crit is not a lot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sasofrass View Post
    That's how I feel about it. I feel like Blizzard wants chaos bolt to be this very powerful, high damage dealing ability but have a poor implementation of it. I made a list of how the percentage increments could increase, making it weak to begin but incredibly devastating towards the end:

    cast %
    -------------
    0.1 1
    0.2 2
    0.3 3
    0.4 4
    0.5 5
    0.6 6
    0.7 7
    0.8 8
    0.9 9
    1.0 10
    1.1 11
    1.2 12
    1.3 13
    1.4 14
    1.5 15
    1.6 16
    1.7 17
    1.8 18
    1.9 19
    2.0 20
    2.1 22
    2.2 24
    2.3 26
    2.4 28
    2.5 30
    2.6 32
    2.7 34
    2.8 36
    2.9 38
    3.0 40
    3.1 43
    3.2 46
    3.3 49
    3.4 52
    3.5 55
    3.6 58
    3.7 61
    3.8 64
    3.9 67
    4.0 70
    4.1 74
    4.2 78
    4.3 82
    4.4 86
    4.5 90
    4.6 94
    4.7 98
    4.8 102
    4.9 106
    5.0 110

    Basically the percentage increases depending on the second it's at. Meaning if you're actually able to get off a 5 second chaos bolt, it's going to be doing an immense amount of damage, though 2-3 second chaos bolts will probably be more realistic. It will be a large hit but not nearly as large as a fully charged one.
    Good God Man! Graphs!

    100% damage would have to be around 3 seconds to make it work. Any less than that and you're just getting redonkulous numbers at 5 seconds. Any more than that and you don't get that much benefit from charging it. You also run into the problem of attempting to get a freakin' 5 second cast on in PvE. Not even to mention PvP.

  17. #1997
    Epic!
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    France, Illidan-EU
    Posts
    1,744
    The biggest problem with the set bonus is that it's RNG piled on top of RNG, piled on top of another heaping dose of RNG.

    Not only do you have the RNG of whether Conflag will crit, you then have the RNG of whether that Crit will proc the bonus. Only then do you then have the additional RNG of whether your Incinerates/Immolate ticks will crit when they wouldn't have otherwise.

    It'd be entirely possible to have a completely wasted proc just because Immolate or Incinerate didn't crit as a result of the bonus. 10% crit is not a lot.
    I always laugh when I do/see calculations on this set bonus xD

    And they still managed to nerf it in its last iteration... I mean really, how could they do that. I know it will be modified (buffed or scrapped) in later builds but seriously, who did the math and thought
    Hey let's nerf it a bit, this seems overpowered
    Android App : World of Quizzcraft
    Test your knowledge of WoW with 1200 questions and 80 achievements!

    Inactive since 09/2013

  18. #1998
    Stood in the Fire sasofrass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    381
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    100% damage would have to be around 3 seconds to make it work. Any less than that and you're just getting redonkulous numbers at 5 seconds. Any more than that and you don't get that much benefit from charging it. You also run into the problem of attempting to get a freakin' 5 second cast on in PvE. Not even to mention PvP.
    Well, it's a risky spell to cast. To be safe people would realistically let it launch between 2 and 3 seconds, which the damage should be around the same as it is currently. But if you're willing to take the risk and wait another 1-2 seconds and get off the max power chaos bolt, then kudos to you, you're about to destroy someone.

    In PvE, I feel like it'd add a little more skill to it. Knowing when you have time to have a 5 second chaos bolt, planning DS around it, etc. Gives the basic spec something some sort of challenge to it.

  19. #1999
    Is anybody else concerned about the direction Affliction is heading? They said they want to reduce the significance of channeling Malefic Grasp and Drain Soul which so many have asked for and i'm totally agreeing with that. But this is what they actually did:
    • Nerfed MG and DS damage by 40%.
    • Almost exclusively buffed the damage and damage modifier of Haunt ... by 50% WTF!!!
    • A little but meaningless buff to dot damage which doesnt even compensate for former nerfs to Corruption.
    • Instant application of all dots in one move became even more powerful and less expensive.
    • Increased the generation rate of Soul Shards in single target situtations.

    This is not what i expected when these changes where originally announced. How i would have done it:
    • Nerf MG and DS damage.
    • Exclusively increase damage of dots to compensate.
    • Leave Haunt as it is: A 30% modifier has a significant but not to strong impact as a burst mechanic.
    • Remove the ability to apply all dots instantly to encourage casting and prevent overpowered multitarget performance.
    • Keep or even reduce the rate of generating shards in a single target situation.

    In my opinion Affliction should be first and foremost about dots. I really liked the situation in WotLK and even Cata. Five different dots seems overkill to me too and even having three powerful and distinctive ones is better than four copies of the same spell. But MoP dots are weaker than ever before. Part of considerable dots is having a sense of accomplishments if you apply them especially to more than one target. But in 5.4 all we are going do is spam that Soul Swap button, either with our without using Soulburn. I really liked this ability in Cata when it was a low cooldown ability to quickly swap targets, not the go-to tool to spread dots.

    I'm glad they realized that filler spells were a too big part of our damage but now the spec will be all about maintaining a high uptime of Haunt and even spamming it in some situations. The combination of more shards and a buff to Haunt will give it the same significance that channeling MG previously had. I supposed this spell was a possibility to give some parts of our rotation a considerable but reasonable emphasis but now it buffs large parts of our damage by nearly 50% ... our damage will be weak if it is not applied, like it is now without casting filler spells.

    Please tell me what you are thinking about the PTR changes.

  20. #2000
    Quote Originally Posted by luckydevours View Post
    Is anybody else concerned about the direction Affliction is heading? They said they want to reduce the significance of channeling Malefic Grasp and Drain Soul which so many have asked for and i'm totally agreeing with that. But this is what they actually did:
    • Nerfed MG and DS damage by 40%.
    • Almost exclusively buffed the damage and damage modifier of Haunt ... by 50% WTF!!!
    • A little but meaningless buff to dot damage which doesnt even compensate for former nerfs to Corruption.
    • Instant application of all dots in one move became even more powerful and less expensive.
    • Increased the generation rate of Soul Shards in single target situtations.

    This is not what i expected when these changes where originally announced. How i would have done it:
    • Nerf MG and DS damage.
    • Exclusively increase damage of dots to compensate.
    • Leave Haunt as it is: A 30% modifier has a significant but not to strong impact as a burst mechanic.
    • Remove the ability to apply all dots instantly to encourage casting and prevent overpowered multitarget performance.
    • Keep or even reduce the rate of generating shards in a single target situation.

    In my opinion Affliction should be first and foremost about dots. I really liked the situation in WotLK and even Cata. Five different dots seems overkill to me too and even having three powerful and distinctive ones is better than four copies of the same spell. But MoP dots are weaker than ever before. Part of considerable dots is having a sense of accomplishments if you apply them especially to more than one target. But in 5.4 all we are going do is spam that Soul Swap button, either with our without using Soulburn. I really liked this ability in Cata when it was a low cooldown ability to quickly swap targets, not the go-to tool to spread dots.

    I'm glad they realized that filler spells were a too big part of our damage but now the spec will be all about maintaining a high uptime of Haunt and even spamming it in some situations. The combination of more shards and a buff to Haunt will give it the same significance that channeling MG previously had. I supposed this spell was a possibility to give some parts of our rotation a considerable but reasonable emphasis but now it buffs large parts of our damage by nearly 50% ... our damage will be weak if it is not applied, like it is now without casting filler spells.

    Please tell me what you are thinking about the PTR changes.
    But it's fun doing the first boss in LFR and soloing multiple adds by 4xhaunt + DS and then go to the next one. :P

    I agree that the went the wrong direction, but it does make Aff more fun for those of us in the Destro-loving department.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •