1. #2941
    Dreadlord Cebel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Arkansas, United States
    Posts
    953
    Quote Originally Posted by strmstrike View Post
    Unless I am missing something obvious, your spreadsheet is missing Bindings in the sums. It only goes to 20th row?
    you missed it. Its in row 21 ( i put it there to make it easier to right the formula to calculate the gains ( since it benefits from gems as well ).

  2. #2942
    Quote Originally Posted by Cebel View Post
    you missed it. Its in row 21 ( i put it there to make it easier to right the formula to calculate the gains ( since it benefits from gems as well ).
    Yes but it's not included in the sum in row 23?

  3. #2943
    The Patient sasofrass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    301
    Quote Originally Posted by Cebel View Post
    with full heroic BIS ( Non thunderforged ), and going for dps gain socket bonuses, and hit cap, and going for an "ideal" reforge, i got to 15.1k haste, and 16.6k mastery. Thats 2pc tier, and then all haste/mastery offpieces, only 2 items with crit ( legendary cloak, and main hand weapon ).

    Edit: heres a link to my bis list ( granted its a bit outdated since they nerfed the actual numbers provided by the trinkets ( i did change the % value on bindings, but yea cant be arsed to math out what our 2nd trinket will be because breath is still prob better than all of them lolz ). https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...2eXVVRVE#gid=0

    So yeah, def the 13787 then mastery, granted thats using the garrosh trinket, which after the nerfs to trinkets across the board im not so sure i want to use regardless ( in which case you need to find other sources of haste to hit that break point ( the only other source is gems and/or reforging out of mastery. )
    What about the Kardis' Toxic Totem? The black blood was changed so you only gain one stack every second for 10 seconds and then it's gone. It's like a quicker wush but lasts half as long.

    KTT does a lot of damage with the multistrike and grants 13,274 int for 10 seconds on a 0.92 RPPM. (i have not done math for either trinkets )
    Austin -=- US-Suramar -=- Warlock -=- 14/14H -=- Logic

  4. #2944
    Any similar spreadsheet for Demo?
    Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.

  5. #2945
    Quote Originally Posted by sasofrass View Post
    What about the Kardis' Toxic Totem? The black blood was changed so you only gain one stack every second for 10 seconds and then it's gone. It's like a quicker wush but lasts half as long.

    KTT does a lot of damage with the multistrike and grants 13,274 int for 10 seconds on a 0.92 RPPM. (i have not done math for either trinkets )
    Wushoolay got changed to 10s too, getting a stack every second.

    Honestly Wushoolay HC TF 2/2 is amazing, especially for affliction. It stacks 17,150 intellect total, with 1,21 RPPM. That means the expected time between procs is 50s. The only downside is the static hit, we might have too much of it.

    Black Blood doesn't seem worth it at all. It's almost the same as Wushoolay, only with haste instead of hit. However, it has 0,92 RPPM, about 31,5% less than Wushoolay. I think that will make it worse, considering how much we benefit from procs. Additionally it drops off Garrosh, so you can't get a heroic version for any kind of progress.

    KTT looks like the best new trinket to me. The passive is solid and about equal to the others, Bindings being a bit better and BBoY a bit worse (cleave trinket is situational obviously). 0,92 RPPM means you will get about 76% more procs than with 115s ICD, which more than makes up for the shorter proc if you consider snapshotting.

    Bindings has the best passive, but I think low proc rate will not favor us (talking affliction mostly). A 20s proc is just not that much better than a 10s proc.

    As it is now, I will stick with Wushoolay for all progress. Second slot would be KTT > Bindings > Breath.

  6. #2946
    Quote Originally Posted by Cebel View Post
    actually it is impossible to reach those numbers while not losing dps due to the gemming.... Compare this tiers gem sockets to next tier and you'll clearly see why.
    that depends mainly on stat value tho. i can see that mastery's value will go up a bit but i cant really see it overtake haste atm especially when you factor in that everything we do scales with haste, something that cant be said about mastery.

    yeah, i get your point, too many red sockets is generally bad when you want to primarily stack secondary stats since they come from yellow sockets. problem is, you'd loose dps no matter how you gem tho, int/mastery gems isnt going to be as good as pure mastery gems if mastery is your best stat and the same goes for haste as i said earlier, it comes down to stat values which we cant really say anything about until some proper theorycrafting have been done, so until then it will mainly be based on opinions and not facts.
    Last edited by almara2512; 2013-08-18 at 02:13 PM.

  7. #2947
    Hmmm they doubled the value of secondary stat gems because everyone just took primary stat gems. Blizzard doesn't like group think.

    Now that everyone at a certain level stacks secondary stat gems, I wonder if they will herd everyone back to primary stats again. (Yellow gems are too popular! Everyone was taking them!)

  8. #2948
    The Patient sasofrass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    301
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    Hmmm they doubled the value of secondary stat gems because everyone just took primary stat gems. Blizzard doesn't like group think.

    Now that everyone at a certain level stacks secondary stat gems, I wonder if they will herd everyone back to primary stats again. (Yellow gems are too popular! Everyone was taking them!)
    Some stack secondaries, some stack primaries. I don't think they'd go back and change these again, I feel they're working just fine.
    Austin -=- US-Suramar -=- Warlock -=- 14/14H -=- Logic

  9. #2949
    Quote Originally Posted by strmstrike View Post
    Huh might actually be that way, I wish we had a decent sim

    Actually on second thought, we will be able to get maybe 1000 under the cap max, and at that point it's nothing but an annoyance.
    That's basically what you ended up with in T14, around 13% hit and it wasn't even bad and you got a lot more mastery out of it.

    We will see!
    Warlock: Knot ~ Rogue: Likely ~ Warrior: Notqt ~ Druid: Honestly

  10. #2950
    Missing a Haunt would be more prejudicial now than it was in T14, this little detail shouldn't be forgotten, not to mention missing 1 SOC during MF losing truckloads of damage
    Warlock / IA Operative / Wizard / Engineer

  11. #2951
    Dreadlord Cebel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Arkansas, United States
    Posts
    953
    Quote Originally Posted by strmstrike View Post
    Yes but it's not included in the sum in row 23?
    it is, or it was... unless somehow someone edited it... in which case ill cry

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    that depends mainly on stat value tho. i can see that mastery's value will go up a bit but i cant really see it overtake haste atm especially when you factor in that everything we do scales with haste, something that cant be said about mastery.

    yeah, i get your point, too many red sockets is generally bad when you want to primarily stack secondary stats since they come from yellow sockets. problem is, you'd loose dps no matter how you gem tho, int/mastery gems isnt going to be as good as pure mastery gems if mastery is your best stat and the same goes for haste as i said earlier, it comes down to stat values which we cant really say anything about until some proper theorycrafting have been done, so until then it will mainly be based on opinions and not facts.
    int/mastery gems in a red socket is actually a dps gain over 320 mastery simply because of the socket bonus ( +60 int or more in the case of next tiers gear ). The only ones that are even questionable, would be belt and leggings.

  12. #2952
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfury View Post
    Missing a Haunt would be more prejudicial now than it was in T14, this little detail shouldn't be forgotten, not to mention missing 1 SOC during MF losing truckloads of damage
    While true I feel still feel like any Mastery gain would be worth the miss to buff the dots - especially considering how many more Shards you are getting now vs T14 (even at the highest haste levels possible). Only thing I could see potentially trashing the non hitcapped setup is missing a pandemic refresh window. But even then it wasn't that big of a factor in T14 either.

    Will be interesting nonetheless.
    Warlock: Knot ~ Rogue: Likely ~ Warrior: Notqt ~ Druid: Honestly

  13. #2953
    Dreadlord Cebel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Arkansas, United States
    Posts
    953
    Quote Originally Posted by strmstrike View Post
    Wushoolay got changed to 10s too, getting a stack every second.

    Honestly Wushoolay HC TF 2/2 is amazing, especially for affliction. It stacks 17,150 intellect total, with 1,21 RPPM. That means the expected time between procs is 50s. The only downside is the static hit, we might have too much of it.

    Black Blood doesn't seem worth it at all. It's almost the same as Wushoolay, only with haste instead of hit. However, it has 0,92 RPPM, about 31,5% less than Wushoolay. I think that will make it worse, considering how much we benefit from procs. Additionally it drops off Garrosh, so you can't get a heroic version for any kind of progress.

    KTT looks like the best new trinket to me. The passive is solid and about equal to the others, Bindings being a bit better and BBoY a bit worse (cleave trinket is situational obviously). 0,92 RPPM means you will get about 76% more procs than with 115s ICD, which more than makes up for the shorter proc if you consider snapshotting.

    Bindings has the best passive, but I think low proc rate will not favor us (talking affliction mostly). A 20s proc is just not that much better than a 10s proc.

    As it is now, I will stick with Wushoolay for all progress. Second slot would be KTT > Bindings > Breath.

    Bindings is easily BIS. Its a ICD trinket ( thus reliable ), and the passive is strong as hell. The questions come down to what trinket will we use in the 2nd trinket slot, and atm im not convinced it WONT be breath or wushoolays simply because they proc so much more than the other trinkets sadly. Ive been tweeting at lore and ghostcrawler nearly every day about getting rid of RPPM altogether, and the only response ive gotten is that they added ICD and On-Use trinkets to the loot tables, so we have options. (Which bindings is our only ICD/On-Use trinket as a caster in the entirety of SoO so thats laughable at best ).

  14. #2954
    Quote Originally Posted by Cebel View Post
    Bindings is easily BIS. Its a ICD trinket ( thus reliable ), and the passive is strong as hell. The questions come down to what trinket will we use in the 2nd trinket slot, and atm im not convinced it WONT be breath or wushoolays simply because they proc so much more than the other trinkets sadly. Ive been tweeting at lore and ghostcrawler nearly every day about getting rid of RPPM altogether, and the only response ive gotten is that they added ICD and On-Use trinkets to the loot tables, so we have options. (Which bindings is our only ICD/On-Use trinket as a caster in the entirety of SoO so thats laughable at best ).
    How is getting a proc reliably every 2 minutes than getting it on average every 1m5s? The passive is really not that amazing either, you get about 2200-2300 stats with hc version plus the crit modifier which is worth another ~1000 stats. It's not significantly more than KTT passive, making KTT clearly better. Talking affliction, but I think it goes for all specs.

  15. #2955
    Dreadlord Cebel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Arkansas, United States
    Posts
    953
    Quote Originally Posted by strmstrike View Post
    How is getting a proc reliably every 2 minutes than getting it on average every 1m5s? The passive is really not that amazing either, you get about 2200-2300 stats with hc version plus the crit modifier which is worth another ~1000 stats. It's not significantly more than KTT passive, making KTT clearly better. Talking affliction, but I think it goes for all specs.
    The passive is that amazing actually. And im not sure where you've been for all of testing, but my KTT procs on average ( based on logs ), have varied from anywhere between 1 minute, and 4-5 minutes. Its entirely RNG and during progression i dont want to rely on RNG to do competitive dps. Not to mention as I said, theres 2 trinket slots. Bindings will be one of those 2 slots on every warlock in their right mind. The competition comes down to which OTHER trinket will be in our 2nd slot.

    Youre also forgetting the bindings proc lasts 20 seconds versus 10 seconds.

    Heres some quick napkin math on the procs values:

    BINDINGS:

    13273 int for 20 seconds ( 115 second ICD )

    13273 x 20 = 265,460

    265,460/115 = 2308.35 average int gain from the proc.

    KTT:

    13273 int for 10 seconds ( RPPM, Procs may very, but for the benefit of consistency lets use Strmstrikes proc rate of 1min 5 seconds (read: 65 second icd FOR SIMPLICITIES SAKE, your procs could very well take more or even less time to proc ).


    13273 x 10 = 132,730

    132,730 / 65 = 2042 average int gain from the proc.



    Moral of the story is, theyre pretty damn close proc wise, except bindings is going to be RELIABLE, and CONSISTENT, between attempts, which during progression ( at least at the top level ), is FAR FAR FAR more appealing to me than the POSSIBILITY of it being worse, or slightly better.
    Last edited by Cebel; 2013-08-18 at 07:51 PM.

  16. #2956
    It's not amazing, it's very close to all the other passives. I would much much rather have 10s procs every 65s over 20s procs every 115s, it's simply superior because you can have big dots for nearly double the time. Reliably bad is not a benefit.

    Wushoolay is the obvious trinket IMO, and then KTT > Bindings > Breath for second slot.

  17. #2957
    Dreadlord Cebel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Arkansas, United States
    Posts
    953
    Quote Originally Posted by strmstrike View Post
    It's not amazing, it's very close to all the other passives. I would much much rather have 10s procs every 65s over 20s procs every 115s, it's simply superior because you can have big dots for nearly double the time. Reliably bad is not a benefit.

    Wushoolay is the obvious trinket IMO, and then KTT > Bindings > Breath for second slot.
    Tbqh wushoolay is likely to be nerfed, theres no reasoning behind a 549 trinket having a higher int proc than a 563 trinket ( comparing wushoo to black blood ).

    After that then yes Id agree with the possibility of KTT and Bindings being nearly equal, however i still favor the consistency over the randomness.

  18. #2958
    Quote Originally Posted by Cebel View Post

    int/mastery gems in a red socket is actually a dps gain over 320 mastery simply because of the socket bonus ( +60 int or more in the case of next tiers gear ). The only ones that are even questionable, would be belt and leggings.
    and just for the record, it isnt impossible to reach the numbers i mentioned, having tested it myself on the ptr and it is doable, got 18,3k haste having gemmed int/haste in red sockets (and appropriate haste/hit, haste in the rest) in ilvl 547-548 gear, ofc as a result my mastery is shot to hell, got around 6,5k but when you add 13+ average ilvls when you get hc gear, then its entirely possible to gem after socket bonuses and still reaching the 18,3k haste break point as afflic and have a good amount of mastery (10-12k).
    Last edited by almara2512; 2013-08-18 at 08:31 PM.

  19. #2959
    Dreadlord Cebel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Arkansas, United States
    Posts
    953
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    and just for the record, it isnt impossible to reach the numbers i mentioned, having tested it myself on the ptr and it is doable, got 18,3k haste having gemmed int/haste in red sockets (and appropriate haste/hit, haste in the rest) in ilvl 547-548 gear, ofc as a result my mastery is shot to hell, got around 6,5k but when you add 13+ average ilvls when you get hc gear, then its entirely possible to gem after socket bonuses and still reaching the 18,3k haste break point as afflic and have a good amount of mastery (10-12k).
    Not without ignoring socket bonuses, or just using scaled ToT gear with bindings trinket, not to mention as youve already said youre sacrificing so much mastery i cant imagine it being a dps gain, but to each their own. Id like to see the setup youre thinking of hitting those numbers with.
    Last edited by Cebel; 2013-08-18 at 08:42 PM.

  20. #2960
    Quote Originally Posted by Cebel View Post
    Not without ignoring socket bonuses, or just using scaled ToT gear with bindings trinket, not to mention as youve already said youre sacrificing so much mastery i cant imagine it being a dps gain, but to each their own. Id like to see the setup youre thinking of hitting those numbers with.
    if you mean the 18,3k haste with 10-15k mastery then it is easily doable in a mix of hc and normal gear, was thinking something like(wall of text inc): Hood of the Horned Nightmare, Ashflare Pendant, Mantle of the Horned Nightmare, Xing-Ho, Breath of Yu'lon, Robes of the Horned Nightmare, Avool's Ancestral Bracers, Arcweaver Spell Sword, Revelations of Y'Shaarj, Gloves of the Horned Nightmare, Belt of Ominous Trembles, Leggings of Furious Flame, Bone-Inlaid Sandals, Extinguished Ember of Galakras, Signet of the Dinomancers, Purified Bindings of Immerseus, Black Blood of Y'Shaarj. all upgraded hc versions, no hc warforged and gemmed for haste and going after socket bonuses it should allow you to reach said numbers if my calculator is correct and didnt make any mistakes atleast.
    Last edited by almara2512; 2013-08-18 at 09:12 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •