1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by ykza View Post
    Really? We already are useless at keeping melee away even with KJC! Even with KJC we are mediocre at PvP and we aren't really dominating PvE atm. Every class should be able to cast on the move and be balanced around that. The people you hear complaining about casting on the move are Spriests and boomies and they do it because they can't do it. Give to everyone, make the game better.
    Yes, but then melee gets the short end of the stick cause Ranged can always move. What does that leave them? Mobile DPS is one of the fortees of being melee, if Ranged get that too, then why bring a melee to a fight?

    That's the kind of trouble Blizz runs into and has to balance for. Again, I'm not saying this was the right solution, but I can see their design problem.

  2. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Yes, but then melee gets the short end of the stick cause Ranged can always move. What does that leave them? Mobile DPS is one of the fortees of being melee, if Ranged get that too, then why bring a melee to a fight?

    That's the kind of trouble Blizz runs into and has to balance for. Again, I'm not saying this was the right solution, but I can see their design problem.
    I feel as though blizzard are trying to make melee's fortees be "take less damage because your armored to the teeth /Can dodge things with your sick agility". They just nerfed Warlocks, Boomkins, Spriests and Hunters Passive damage reduction, by guess is they will add passive damage reduction to melee or something. I dno, but I see no other reason for them to nerf our passive damage reduction other than giving melees something to be good at.
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  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispotter View Post
    I feel as though blizzard are trying to make melee's fortees be "take less damage because your armored to the teeth /Can dodge things with your sick agility". They just nerfed Warlocks, Boomkins, Spriests and Hunters Passive damage reduction, by guess is they will add passive damage reduction to melee or something. I dno, but I see no other reason for them to nerf our passive damage reduction other than giving melees something to be good at.
    It was mentioned (don't remember if by blue post or GC's twitter) that the impetus behind removing the passive damage reductions was for pve reasons, namely that it felt unfair that some classes were less impacted by raidwide damage mechanics.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispotter View Post
    I feel as though blizzard are trying to make melee's fortees be "take less damage because your armored to the teeth /Can dodge things with your sick agility". They just nerfed Warlocks, Boomkins, Spriests and Hunters Passive damage reduction, by guess is they will add passive damage reduction to melee or something. I dno, but I see no other reason for them to nerf our passive damage reduction other than giving melees something to be good at.
    Could very well be. That's the downside of datamining, and Blizz's forced early patchnotes. They don't get time to frame what they are doing in a nice article to explain things, and their intentions. The passive damage reduction one is a good example of something that was a clear across the board design adjustment, but not a peep so far as to the intentions. (maybe on twitter, but I hardly folllow them there)

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Yes, but then melee gets the short end of the stick cause Ranged can always move. What does that leave them? Mobile DPS is one of the fortees of being melee, if Ranged get that too, then why bring a melee to a fight?

    That's the kind of trouble Blizz runs into and has to balance for. Again, I'm not saying this was the right solution, but I can see their design problem.
    I don't see why there has to be a distinction as far as mobility niche. Let people who like being near the mobs play melee, and let people who prefer being away play ranged. Give melee tools to make up for having to move whereas ranged can just re-target (there are already plenty, such as charge / heroic leap ... DKs have plenty of dots and some ranged abilities to minimize loss from movement). Make it so ranged have to dodge more shit (which we typically do) so that even if we can move and cast, we can't afford to tunnel vision as much as melee.

    Give melee strong sustained that starts with an initial burst after a period of inactivity so that target switching builds up resources to cover downtime (rogue energy regen, dk rune regen). Whatever. I realize I'm not a developer and it's easy to say these things from my perspective, but I think this is where they should be aiming -- not for punishing ranged target switching ability by making us having to stand still to cast yet having tons of shit to dodge.
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  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Szarala View Post
    It was mentioned (don't remember if by blue post or GC's twitter) that the impetus behind removing the passive damage reductions was for pve reasons, namely that it felt unfair that some classes were less impacted by raidwide damage mechanics.
    The problem being, they nerfed our 10% passive damage that was GIVEN to us for pvp reasons, while leaving Soul Leach - the primary source of damage reduction in pve (hell, they even buffed it a tad).

    I mean, we're not the only ones hit by this change, moonkins and spriests took a passive damage reduction too, but if their aim is reducing pve mitigation then they're going about it in a bizarre way that has more pvp bleed over that fixing the borderline broken talent we have, I'd be surprised if Soul Leech wasn't as popular, if not more, than KJC in pve - does anyone NOT take it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    I don't see why there has to be a distinction as far as mobility niche.
    Melee needs to be hugging the boss to deal damage, if any mechanics force melee to move away, they lose dps - a ranged player can deal damage provided they stay within their 40y range of the boss, but lose damage when they need to move. Alternatively, blizzards solution to melee being weaker than ranged in Dragonsoul was to simply make melee do more damage in tank 'n spank than ranged, then mechanics that forced movement balanced it out a bit.

    It's been how things have worked since forever, I'm fine with ranged losing damage when they need to move - the problem is having no buttons to press, that is bad design, simple as that. It's not enjoyable when you have 3 buttons that you're being told yeah, you can totally press these if you want - but are all actively hampering your output a lot of the time, affliction needs some movement filler that doesn't mess with it's dots, destro I'm less familiar with, but Brusalk has made it sound like destro will have problems due to fel flames mana cost iirc.

    I personally don't see why giving us at least our filler as castable on the move would be so bad, hunters are mobile as all hell and an ele shaman can complete a full rotation on the move as far as I'm aware, lava bolt needs to rely on procs, but filler, shocks and lava procs enable them to cast a lot - why it's such a criminal move for warlocks seems odd.

    If not, we need some filler that won't bone afflictions dots and ideally cost less mana, just so we have something to do while moving.

    Doesn't really fix the pvp problems though, that's a different sack of ferrets.
    Last edited by Nagassh; 2013-06-15 at 10:01 PM.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    Melee needs to be hugging the boss to deal damage
    You explained why balancing is the way it is, because of this paradigm ... I'm questioning why this paradigm must exist. It's within the realm of possibility for melee to be compensated for target switching / being away from their target, and to balance ranged around mobility and not losing out from target switching.
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  8. #468
    It's funny that they nerf ranged classes damage reduction, but do nothing to rogues. No cooldown 50% AoE damage reduction+30% from everything else(Elusiveness talent + Feint) and 1min CD best soak/damage reduction ability(Cloak of Shadows). Also funny thing is that Rogues L90 talent, Anticipation, is picked 100% of time in PvE, why doesn't blizzard see problem with this?

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by esatikkane View Post
    It's funny that they nerf ranged classes damage reduction, but do nothing to rogues. No cooldown 50% AoE damage reduction+30% from everything else(Elusiveness talent + Feint) and 1min CD best soak/damage reduction ability(Cloak of Shadows). Also funny thing is that Rogues L90 talent, Anticipation, is picked 100% of time in PvE, why doesn't blizzard see problem with this?
    Like I said reason for that is complete Bias, I said once I say it again, the designers are completely bias and spiteful of us locks - Ghostwalker can say on twitter, they don't make changes out of spiteful but that is lie, he even claim and any blue can say their is no bias with any class, but that would also be lie. Truth is every designer got burn by a lock in either pvp, or pve and they being unprofessional about it and taking it out on our class, taking away our damage reduction, gutting our 90 talent because it taken over others, while like you said Count, not having a problem with say all rogue picking Anticipation. If I was running blizz I would pretty much fire every single designer and get new ones.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    I'd be surprised if Soul Leech wasn't as popular, if not more, than KJC in pve - does anyone NOT take it?
    If I play with GoSac as Affli I tend to still pick Dark Regen because of its synergy with Shadow Bulwark (and Soul Link of course, but I usually pick Sac Pact).

  11. #471
    But there are ways to go around that... They can give casters mobility and still make them lose some dps by moving, with spells like Scorch. That way casters have good mobility(while losing some dps but not much) but not as good as melee mobility, considering nowadays every melee has 10 gap closers and 20 run speed increases. I think that would be fair and make the game more fun.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by ykza View Post
    But there are ways to go around that... They can give casters mobility and still make them lose some dps by moving, with spells like Scorch. That way casters have good mobility(while losing some dps but not much) but not as good as melee mobility, considering nowadays every melee has 10 gap closers and 20 run speed increases. I think that would be fair and make the game more fun.
    Well Warlocks have a spell that can do that: Fel Flame. Trouble is that at the moment Fel Flame also increases the duration of our dots, meaning they re-snapshot.

    Wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Blizzard take the simple way out and simply cut the dot increase from Fel Flame + maybe lower the mana cost a tiny bit. Voila, we'd have a spammable movement spell that doesn't interfere with anything. Given the options, wouldn't that be the simplest solution?

    It's not like we need the dot increase part of Fel Flame much anyway, with Pandemic, and they could even just put it in as a minor glyph to have the effect back or something, if they really feel it's a valued part to enough people. Only dots we can't cast on the move are UA and Immo. UA can be done with Soulswap if we were foolish enough to not have it at decent length before moving. Immo might be more of a problem, but immo is not DPS breaking for Destro if it falls off.

    Seriously, how much use do we get out of the dot lengthening part of Fel Flame, and how hard would it be to give that up in return for a spammable spell for movement periods? It's what the spell has always been for, doesn't add to the button bloat, doesn't upset our rotations, for a minor convenience change. It seems odd to give up something else to get the fix we need, but I'm not seeing any solutions that can be easily implemented otherwise.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Well Warlocks have a spell that can do that: Fel Flame. Trouble is that at the moment Fel Flame also increases the duration of our dots, meaning they re-snapshot.

    Wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Blizzard take the simple way out and simply cut the dot increase from Fel Flame + maybe lower the mana cost a tiny bit. Voila, we'd have a spammable movement spell that doesn't interfere with anything. Given the options, wouldn't that be the simplest solution?

    It's not like we need the dot increase part of Fel Flame much anyway, with Pandemic, and they could even just put it in as a minor glyph to have the effect back or something, if they really feel it's a valued part to enough people. Only dots we can't cast on the move are UA and Immo. UA can be done with Soulswap if we were foolish enough to not have it at decent length before moving. Immo might be more of a problem, but immo is not DPS breaking for Destro if it falls off.

    Seriously, how much use do we get out of the dot lengthening part of Fel Flame, and how hard would it be to give that up in return for a spammable spell for movement periods? It's what the spell has always been for, doesn't add to the button bloat, doesn't upset our rotations, for a minor convenience change. It seems odd to give up something else to get the fix we need, but I'm not seeing any solutions that can be easily implemented otherwise.
    Immo + 2 FF is the best use of Havoc when damage on one target is most important.

    It has it's uses for Destro, though for the two other specs it doesn't really.

  14. #474
    Have to say that as an ex-melee for the last 1.5 year (being caster for all the other time in wow) ToT was favoring melees to almost ALL fights. I now understand how easy was my time while I was chewing the boss ankle and having to move only on some void zone effects! It was really heaven Cannot say the same though to older expansion that were mostly ranged favored. ToT is melee favored. At least this is how I have experienced it as frost/blood DK and now warlock.

    OT: Tanking is so much easier than trying to dps your ass out... Man...
    Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.

  15. #475
    Tanking and playing Melee dps in PVE is amazingly easy. 90% of the mechanics don't affect your ability to dps or don't even target you and even if the boss or an add is out of your range for a second or two, you have insane gap closers like Charge or Heroic Leap that actually increase dps or a half dozen instant ranged abilities (Enhance, Ret Rouges and Frost) to use while you pop 1 of 4 different sprints to catch up. Ranged and healing on the other hand are forced to slow or stop their throughput because of movement on a constant basis. After being a Warlock for years and going Tank/Melee in Firelands and Dragon Soul and back to my Warlock for MoP I can honestly say that we get the short end of the stick in most situations when it comes to QoL for dpsing. Admittedly, anything Patchwerk Mages and Warlocks top the charts (Other than Rouges...) but those are so far and few at this point that they don't matter.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-16 at 01:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Immo + 2 FF is the best use of Havoc when damage on one target is most important.

    It has it's uses for Destro, though for the two other specs it doesn't really.

    It was used in the Demonology rotation on a fairly regular basis before our nukes were buffed. Now its all but forgotten because using it in the crafty way it could be used before is a slight loss now.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Well Warlocks have a spell that can do that: Fel Flame. Trouble is that at the moment Fel Flame also increases the duration of our dots, meaning they re-snapshot.

    Wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Blizzard take the simple way out and simply cut the dot increase from Fel Flame + maybe lower the mana cost a tiny bit. Voila, we'd have a spammable movement spell that doesn't interfere with anything. Given the options, wouldn't that be the simplest solution?

    It's not like we need the dot increase part of Fel Flame much anyway, with Pandemic, and they could even just put it in as a minor glyph to have the effect back or something, if they really feel it's a valued part to enough people. Only dots we can't cast on the move are UA and Immo. UA can be done with Soulswap if we were foolish enough to not have it at decent length before moving. Immo might be more of a problem, but immo is not DPS breaking for Destro if it falls off.

    Seriously, how much use do we get out of the dot lengthening part of Fel Flame, and how hard would it be to give that up in return for a spammable spell for movement periods? It's what the spell has always been for, doesn't add to the button bloat, doesn't upset our rotations, for a minor convenience change. It seems odd to give up something else to get the fix we need, but I'm not seeing any solutions that can be easily implemented otherwise.
    I'd agree this is one way of going about it.
    However it does show you how silly it is that "casters should not be able to move and dps" when that is exactly what we are doing with fel flame. If anything it is less skilfull and more tedious than following your full rotation.
    As for melee.
    I have said in this thread that I think that 5.4 is an indirect buff to melee patch. The change to damage reduction only really affected casters and this change to movement further emphasises melee niche being "dps in motion".
    Hunters are a wierd in this sense as they didn't lose passive reduction (all though it was talent based) nor did they loose movement.
    Maybe along with melee, hunters are underrepresented / doing badly on dps for a pure that blizzard didn't want to nerf them.
    Still, think warlocks will be in a bad place with current ptr build and incoming UVLS nerf.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by memey2k View Post
    I'd agree this is one way of going about it.
    However it does show you how silly it is that "casters should not be able to move and dps" when that is exactly what we are doing with fel flame. If anything it is less skilfull and more tedious than following your full rotation.
    As for melee.
    I have said in this thread that I think that 5.4 is an indirect buff to melee patch. The change to damage reduction only really affected casters and this change to movement further emphasises melee niche being "dps in motion".
    Hunters are a wierd in this sense as they didn't lose passive reduction (all though it was talent based) nor did they loose movement.
    Maybe along with melee, hunters are underrepresented / doing badly on dps for a pure that blizzard didn't want to nerf them.
    Still, think warlocks will be in a bad place with current ptr build and incoming UVLS nerf.
    Hunters did get their passive reduction nerfed from 15% to 10%. The reason it wasn't just outright removed (like they did with locks, booms and spriests) is because it's a talent, and the damage reduction is the only thing the talent even does.

  18. #478
    Trolololol. Blizzard has such problems with warlocks and, funnily enough, 90% of their problems are psychological (It's balanced, but doesn't seeeeeem balanced.)
    Your comments are duly noted and ignored.
    I punch a hobo every time someone says 'it's not a rotation it's a priority list lol'.

  19. #479
    i feel the only change that needs to be made in ptr is to allow sbolt mg and chaos bolt to be able to be cast while running
    Cabana Pie Chart US 10th

  20. #480
    Don't forget about Drain Soul. I'm ok with having to stop to cast some spells, I would be ok with just MG and DS being castable while moving.

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