Warlock patch 5.4 discussion

[evertonbelmontt]

@Kildragon

That's pretty much what blizzard wants.

[Deleted]

It might be close until you get the 2pc t16. Even before, close =/= as good or better. As long as incinerate is the optimal filler there is no problem. If anything it's a good thing, seeing how little of a dps loss movement is.

Sure, thats true but it makes KJC basically useless was my point and that 2 part is up so little that its seriously silly.

[Lulbalance]

I find it hilarious that so many people claimed KJC was 'essential' to the Warlock class currently to remain viable, yet are flocking to default to the new AD.

I think Blizzard has done a good job of making many people look rather silly.

by over-buffing another choice in the tier. if that's how they make us look silly i invite them to make a habit out of it .

[Dumaw]

Man... it is just so awesome to cast everything while moving, it became baseline to me, never changed it after I first tried it. I was so sad with the changes I barely touched my warlock since I read about them lol, and I've always played a lock.

I know I know, we gonna adapt and all... well, re-adapt.
Just felt like expressing my late cry.

[Grubjuice]

KJC was not essential but it's 5.3 iteration was an obvious choice for most encounters and situations whereas AV and MF were very niche-y

[Actually for Destruction I will miss the passive version of MF, it was my go to Destro talent because i valued only having to cast Rain Of Fire once every 6 seconds to guarantee near total coverge. but KJC was definitely most to me when playing either Demo or Aff.]

I agree that the change from AV to AD constitutes an over-buffing especially vis-a-vis the nerfs to MF and KJC, if MF and KJC remained in the 5.3 versions then the 5.4 verson of AD would be fairly well balanced (only requiring a few tweaks)

[Deleted]

I do think that blizzard want to weed out casting while moving and if this is there way of doing it then so be it, i really disliked it from the start but im kinda pissed at them removing the passive version of Mannoroth's but i can also see why they are doing it, but if it is to stay like that then it needs reworking so its not worth casting on single target but still strong enough to work with MF (something like what affi has with seed)

[valliant13]

Thats not how conflag works at all...

Can't remember the cd off the top of my head, but lets say conflag has a 8 second cd. You have two charges. You cast conflag. You have one charge left and the 2nd charge is on cd. After three second, you cast conflag again. The second charge is on cd and the first charge will be up in 5 seconds. After 5 seconds, you have 1 charge. You will get another charge in 8 seconds.

So you only get one extra charge of DS with AV. But it allows you to have longer sustained burst in the beginning of a fight, and it also won't be a dps lose to not use DS as soon as it is off cd because you have the other charge cd, so you can wait for procs as long as you don't have two charges.

Edit: Here is Hand of Gul'dan. Two charges with a 15 second cd

http://i.imgur.com/AWVhUSb.jpg

I cast it back to back and the spell is put on cd

http://i.imgur.com/wRhnS83.jpg

After the first charge is off cd, you have the wait another 15 seconds for the second charge

http://i.imgur.com/lzqgHlo.jpg

AD will work similar to clemency for paladins.

Example on horridon how it works, first gate crash and I HoP. Second gate crash and I HoP again(w/o clemency this wouldnt be possible), third I use Divine Shield, Fourth I use HoP(when the first use of HoP is off cooldown)

Now With AD, I see it being basically up every minute since it's a two minute cooldown. You use the first charge on the pull when all trinkets pop etc. So charge 1 is on a two minute cooldown, one minute later you use the second charge, which then goes on a two minute cooldown. One minute later the first charge is back up and you use it. Then a minute after that the second charge comes off cooldown. So while essentially yes it gives you one extra per fight, you are getting double the use of DS throughout the fight. Pretty much making it so DS has a 33% uptime every minute instead of a 16% uptime per minute that it's at now. It just doesnt seem like we have two charges because it will never hit that 2 charges ever again through out the fight, but realistically if it werent for the second charge from AD it wouldnt be possible to achieve.

[Szarala]

It's not "calling a bluff" on KJC when you nerf it so severely and yes, you overbuff the other two in comparison.
There may not be a significant numbers difference between current KJC and proposed KJC, but there is a MASSIVE style difference between being able to cast everything and being able to cast one spell, slow or not, and even if that one spell makes up the bulk of your casts.

If they did one OR the other (nerfing KJC/buffing the other two), then it would be a valid social experiment.

[Deleted]

It's not "calling a bluff" on KJC when you nerf it so severely and yes, you overbuff the other two in comparison.
There may not be a significant numbers difference between current KJC and proposed KJC, but there is a MASSIVE style difference between being able to cast everything and being able to cast one spell, slow or not, and even if that one spell makes up the bulk of your casts.

If they did one OR the other (nerfing KJC/buffing the other two), then it would be a valid social experiment.

You understand that people wanted Kjc because they said casting while moving was fun, very few people wanted there damage balanced around it.

So in giving options that can potentially make your damage higher then yes they are calling bluffs and they are doing a super good job of it aswell, even if the live version of Kjc was still here people would still pick the new AV (AD now) because it offers more damage potentially, although the other stab on this is that fel flame is now buffed and isint anywhere the dps loss it is in 5.3.

[Kildragon]

@Kildragon

That's pretty much what blizzard wants.

You're saying blizzard wants us to have a useless talent? They want balance and diversity and as long as a talent isn't mandatory I they have no problem with it.

The live version of KJC would actually fit perfectly into that last talent row if all other ptr changes stayed as is.

AV is a great choice now that it's been changed and it opens up some nice trinket interactions. Also, it actually has uses on certain types of fights now, for example jin'rok where you could time it so you have dark soul for the last two puddle phases in a row. In PvP it also fits in now, especially seeing how valuable that second dark soul would be with enemy defensives on CD.

The live version of KJC would of course still be great, but with the fel flame and general affliction changes, not having it already feels like less of a penalty. It would be where it belongs, useful but not mandatory.

The MF changes are also awesome from a design standpoint and I've actually argued for MF to be designed like this since MoP beta. The live version has always felt a bit lackluster mainly because its usefulness came from the large radius but it had no situational/skill value. The new version actually allows for specific uses, making it very useful in the right situation. My only problem is that it's not balanced properly for destro. I looked over the simcraft numbers and on live, SoC is around 36% of affliction's AoE damage, Immolation Aura is around 36% of demo's AoE damage, but RoF is only around 26% of destro's AoE damage. Perhaps they could go the GoSac route with this talent and change the values based on spec. I don't have the actual numbers of course but perhaps a 130% (not actual numbers, but math solves everything) buff to RoF would make sense.

[Deleted]

I agree that the change from AV to AD constitutes an over-buffing especially vis-a-vis the nerfs to MF and KJC, if MF and KJC remained in the 5.3 versions then the 5.4 verson of AD would be fairly well balanced (only requiring a few tweaks)

That's what I think too. For Destro at least, MF could still be the best talent on fights like Council, Horridon... Now it has become pretty useless.

[Grubjuice]

That's what I think too. For Destro at least, MF could still be the best talent on fights like Council, Horridon... Now it has become pretty useless.

For MF I would love a compromise between the 5.3 and 5.4 versions: a passive size increase to my AoE, which is disabled after i activate an AoE damage buff cooldown.

[Szarala]

You understand that people wanted Kjc because they said casting while moving was fun, very few people wanted there damage balanced around it.

So in giving options that can potentially make your damage higher then yes they are calling bluffs and they are doing a super good job of it aswell, even if the live version of Kjc was still here people would still pick the new AV (AD now) because it offers more damage potentially, although the other stab on this is that fel flame is now buffed and isint anywhere the dps loss it is in 5.3.

You're completely missing the point.
For the people that took KJC purely for the "fun" of casting on the move, there is a huge.. HUGE difference between the total freedom of the current version and the "one spell" of the new one.

How is it "calling a bluff" if you're changing two variables at once? You're trying to run an experiment without a control.

[Kildragon]

That's what I think too. For Destro at least, MF could still be the best talent on fights like Council, Horridon... Now it has become pretty useless.

The new MF is actually really well designed, they just need to balance it better for destro. From a design standpoint, the new version makes far more sense, promotes smart play and actually has a tangible dps increase rather than a potential increase based solely on density of targets. With a 60 sec CD it already has a short enough CD to be up for just about every AoE phase.

Like I said in my previous post, just make MF boost RoF damage by X% more than SoC or Immo Aura similar to GoSac.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't mind at all if they stay like this. Taking AD normally and MF when a fight calls for it, affliction play would be a lot more interesting at least. You would have to think about when and where you move a lot more, as well as using Fel Flame instead of MG when you do move. Also the AD charge system allows for a lot more decision-making about when to use DS, because currently you just have to use it when it comes off cooldown almost. With charges, there are huge windows where you can pick when to use DS without losing out on total uptime.

Maybe KJC would be better balanced if it still included all spells, but don't forget the slow part of it was also removed. Still, I feel like being able to cast everything at the cost of getting slowed is more interesting and possibly closer in balance to the other 2.

In the end it will depend completely on the encounters. If you are forced to move 80% or more of the fight, I think KJC would still win out.

[Grubjuice]

The new MF is actually really well designed, they just need to balance it better for destro. From a design standpoint, the new version makes far more sense, promotes smart play and actually has a tangible dps increase rather than a potential increase based solely on density of targets. With a 60 sec CD it already has a short enough CD to be up for just about every AoE phase.

Like I said in my previous post, just make MF boost RoF damage by X% more than SoC or Immo Aura similar to GoSac.

Or they could at least let MF also buff the spells spread by Fire and Brimstone, that is our REAL AoE, not Rain of Fire.

RoF is just icing on the FnB cake.

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As it is, in a lot of AoE situations i can think of, KJC would be stronger than MF just because you can cast FnB+Incinerate/FnB+Conflagrate/RoF and still move at the same time. And certainly do so for longer than 10 second every 60 seconds.

[Brusalk]

I find it hilarious that so many people claimed KJC was 'essential' to the Warlock class currently to remain viable, yet are flocking to default to the new AD.

I think Blizzard has done a good job of making many people look rather silly.

Keep in mind that they buffed Fel Flame 2 fold by making it no longer refresh dots and made it do more damage.

KjC was largely essential for Affliction, but with the changes to Fel Flame it's not as large a loss as it was going to be when people were claiming that it was essential.

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I thought destro was quite alright with amp trinket and 4pT16... Demanding to be the very highest single damage spec just because your AoE is no longer amazing is not that reasonable. I don't think the devs will care that much about it anyway, since we already have 2 specs that seems to be at the top next tier.

A spec should never be balanced around the assumption of gear that is coming out that tier. That just means no one will use the spec until they happen to get all the gear (good luck 10 mans..) and often that's after a significant portion of progression has already been done.

If Destro has no real AoE capability, and our cleave is already behind Affliction/Demo what niche does Destro have? Single target. That is his point.

[evertonbelmontt]

@Kildragon

Not useless, but far from better choice.
They gave to it the same treatment grimoire of sac got, it's still usefull, but under certain conditions, very limited talent.

[Soulzar]

I do forsee a major problem with destro and MF. Unless it can get F&B included in MF it will never be a viable spec in terms of aoe...like not even close. No way RoF is anything close to what hellfire/immo aura/seed do under MF buff. Destro also is going to need something to keep up with aff/demo that isn't tied to 4xT16 and the amp trinket.

This is far more than "just" 1 more DS per fight (which is already a lot) : you can choose when to use your charges (=> along with trinkets procs, exec range...) without losing any uptime. This is huge.

The above 2 quotes are why I think they still need to work on MF. With the passive 500% it was still very niche to use. Giving it a 10 second duration very quickly kills the situations I find it to be useful, especially with Destruction if F&B is not included. RoF ember generation nerfed, and its such a small portion of our AoE dmg as destro, how could you ever compare 10 seconds of 100% RoF dmg for a "burst AoE" talent over the ability to bank a DS for REAL burst AoE? Even Demo and Affliction, you would need to have a very specific encounter for MF to out weigh AD now, IMO.

The ability to use DS on cooldown and keep a charge for on demand use for trinkets/burst phase/double DS(hero) is just so powerful, that I see it being the default choice for most encounters. I think they are dangerously close to moving from all locks taking KJC, to all locks taking AD....

[Kildragon]

Or they could at least let MF also buff the spells spread by Fire and Brimstone, that is our REAL AoE, not Rain of Fire.

RoF is just icing on the FnB cake.

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As it is, in a lot of AoE situations i can think of, KJC would be stronger than MF just because you can cast FnB+Incinerate/FnB+Conflagrate/RoF and still move at the same time. And certainly do so for longer than 10 second every 60 seconds.

The problem with letting MF buff F&B is that it would suddenly go from good for afflic and demo but slightly under par for destro to insane for destro. As I said before, it's all about the % breakdown for spells affected. For demo and affliction, Immo Aura and SoC respectively are ~36% of their AoE damage.

For affliction, spreading corruption through SB:SoC and spreading UA/Agony through SB:SS plus haunt on the main target is about 65% of the total AoE damage.

For demo, HoG/shadowflame, your pet, corruption spread and void Ray are about 65% of your total AoE damage.

So for both affliction and demo, that 100% increase is only for 35% of their total AoE damage. That's why letting it affect F&B for destro is overkill. Just make it increase RoF by more than SoC/Immo Aura.

As for your last statement, almost all AoE situations are stand still. Being able to cast F&B incinerate while moving would certainly not beat out the benefit of the increased radius on RoF plus the extra damage. This is especially true since you can already cast RoF and F&B conflag while moving and KJC doesn't give you a damage increase.