View Poll Results: Do you think Bliz will actually nerf KJC?

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  • Yes

    576 74.32%
  • No

    199 25.68%
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  1. #681
    The Patient Gorthan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanatik View Post

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler


    #Xelnath2013!!!!!!!
    so that's the reason why they are changing so much our mechanics? If only i wasn't a warlock it would be very amusing.

  2. #682
    My prediction (as the damage shift from MG to dots was way too easy to predict) is to give and additional effect to FF:

    FF also deals some dot damage like MG for affliction, more resources for Destro and Demo.

  3. #683
    The Patient Uzkin's Avatar
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    There is very little wiggle room in the current affliction/destruction design. KJC wasn't given to warlocks in a whim; it was made necessary due to the redesigned warlock (affli/destro) playstyle in MoP. These specs were designed to revolve around long casts or channeled spells to generate damage and resources. Obviously, that didn't work in the current PvE or (especially) PvP environment. So, Blizzard fixed this the usual way: counter the broken mechanics by a single powerful ability (which, if considered in vacuum, is OP). They have taken the same approach e.g. in trying to fix the monk and rogue PvP. Consequently, KJC is an integral part of affli and destro in their current form.

    So, take away KJC and you are either left with two broken specs (affli/destro), or you have to pretty much redesign the class mechanics again. While I've always been slightly against the talent, I feel it is too difficult to change it now in the middle of the expansion and adjust the class design accordingly. The required changes would simply be too major. Any single change to compensate for the KJC nerf will just break the specs in question elsewhere. Adding cast time on Fel Flame won't work for obvious PvP reasons, in particular it will completely kill destro (if it isn't already). Increasing DoT damage will again result in too powerful multidotting for affli. Etc.

    Out of the three options: (a) leave the talents as is until 6.0, (b) break KJC and MF without major gameplay changes (--> destro/affli get CATACLYSMED again), (c) break KJC and MF while trying to compensate it with one or two changes (--> replaces an issue, unhindered mobility, by another, e.g. OP multidotting) ... I am in favor of (a).

  4. #684
    Prettymuch, KJC is the current equivalent of Blood Fear - a bad talent, but a crutch that's keeping us level with everyone else.

  5. #685
    The idea of trying to viably play destruction without it against any kind of half decent melee team in the games' current state is just laughable.

  6. #686
    KJC wasn't given to warlocks in a whim; it was made necessary due to the redesigned warlock (affli/destro) playstyle in MoP.
    You wish.

    KJC was given to warlocks simply because the dev's went all out in the warlock revamp for Pandaria. They knew they had to boost the population and gave warlocks a bunch of the funnest and coolest tools. KJC was one of them. And you know what? It worked. Warlocks are the flavour of the expansion.

    From their POV im sure they knew all along it was too good and that players should have never had it in the first place. The warlock revamp has been a smashing success (in the terms of growing and revitalising the warlock playerbase) and now they have just decided is the right time to reign in some of the ponys given to warlocks.

    And nobody likes having their pony taken away, as shown by this thread.
    Last edited by TyrianFC; 2013-06-18 at 12:24 PM.

  7. #687
    The Patient Uzkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    You wish.

    KJC was given to warlocks simply because the dev's went all out in the warlock revamp for Pandaria. They knew they had to boost the population and gave warlocks a bunch of the funnest and coolest tools. KJC was one of them. And you know what? It worked. Warlocks are the flavour of the expansion.
    *You* wish. Affliction PvP simply died out at the start of MoP without KJC.. heck, even with it it pretty much died out. Destro with its huge cast and ramp-up times was only viable due to the equally huge damage from a successful CB cast. But that is gone now, too, the opportunity cost of a CB cast is way too high and KJC is the only way for the spec to achieve anything at PvP any more (esp. with the nerf to MF).

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    You wish.

    KJC was given to warlocks simply because the dev's went all out in the warlock revamp for Pandaria. They knew they had to boost the population and gave warlocks a bunch of the funnest and coolest tools. KJC was one of them. And you know what? It worked. Warlocks are the flavour of the expansion.

    From their POV im sure they knew all along it was too good and that players should have never had it in the first place. The warlock revamp has been a smashing success (in the terms of growing and revitalising the warlock playerbase) and now they have just decided is the right time to reign in some of the ponys given to warlocks.

    And nobody likes having their pony taken away, as shown by this thread.
    you do know that KJC when it was given to us, was so craptastically bad that no1 took it?

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    And you know what? It worked. Warlocks are the flavour of the expansion.
    Any legitimacy to that claim?

    Last time I checked warlocks were still at around the same population, only beating monks.

    I also don't get how you can be claiming it's both not necessary AND too good

    I'll say it again, warlocks are not miles ahead of other classes on any encounters that we use KJC because of it. That means

    a) Either KJC isn't "too good" because it's not making us any better than everyone else
    b) KJC is good, but we apparently need it just to keep up with everyone else, ergo it IS necesary

    and don't even PRETEND warlocks are doing particularly well in pvp right now, let alone without it.

    If you're going to sit there claiming that KJC is some overpowered talent, can you at least offer some basis for that other than your gut feeling?
    Last edited by Nagassh; 2013-06-18 at 12:59 PM.

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    You wish.
    KJC was given to warlocks simply because the dev's went all out in the warlock revamp for Pandaria.
    Look at Raidbots and change time back to older patches. See something interesting? Through 5.1, 2 specs are absolutely destroying everyone else, Arcane and Affliction. This was back when Affli was balanced as turret spec, expected to loose ton of damage by moving, and having higher dps when it can stand still. Since the tier didn't require that much movement, both Affli and Arcane were dominating the meters (with Affli having extra edge on multidotting fights).

    5.2 hits, we're no longer outshooting everyone. In fact, both Boomkins and Shadowpriest, who have 'so much problems' with movement, are just behind Affli, who can cast everything on move, and is gaining most from smart usage of procs of all. We are balanced now around not loosing dps on move at all.

    Is it so hard to grasp that taking away KJC now means that Affli either needs to be akin to Arcane Mage and get massive Malefic/signle target buff (way more dps than anyone if able to stand still, loosing ton through movement bringing it back to around what other specs are doing on actual fights) or will simply fall off charts?

  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by Tryana View Post
    I think we should all run without a level 90 talent for a week orso.

    Imagine the confusion at blizzard.
    Not a bad idea. Out of the gate in 5.0 they all sucked. Mannoroth and KJC got decent buffs and still no one even knows what the third talent is. But now, they plan to nerf KJC and Mannoroth will no longer cause embers. So what's the point?

    On a side note - Level 90 talents are supposed to be "awesome sauce." For some classes they still are, for hunters, locks and mages, they are uncontestably "garbage."

  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by Luxeley View Post
    On a side note - Level 90 talents are supposed to be "awesome sauce." For some classes they still are, for hunters, locks and mages, they are uncontestably "garbage."
    Yup, they should kill 2 birds with one stone by redesigning it into a Doom Guard / Infernal / Pit Lord talent tier, it'll give them a chance to fix the problem of the infernal being absolute garbage that never gets used and a way of replacing our current talents, which are just stupid. KJC is the only one with any worth and it beats the others hands down on any none-aoe fight, MF is either the best or the worst depending on the fight, and AV is just garbage - you can't have a talent tier where both

    a) All of the talents are vastly different, not having any overlap in the roles they take
    b) you don't have one talent that is taken 90% of the time for "vanilla" encounters where the others don't shine

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    Is it so hard to grasp that taking away KJC now means that Affli either needs to be akin to Arcane Mage and get massive Malefic/signle target buff (way more dps than anyone if able to stand still, loosing ton through movement bringing it back to around what other specs are doing on actual fights) or will simply fall off charts?
    Or perhaps you just need to use your imagination and stop pretending the only possible, conceivable, plausible, workable solutions that could potentially exist in the wow universe could come down to choosing between "A: massive buff to X - or - B: Accept the end of world is coming"? Your melodramatic post doesn't do anything to help your argument.
    Last edited by TyrianFC; 2013-06-18 at 01:17 PM.

  14. #694
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Or perhaps you just need to use your imagination and stop pretending the only possible, conceivable, plausible, workable solutions that could potentially exist in the wow universe could come down to choosing between "A or B"?
    I doubt anyone disputes that, the problem being - option C seems to be retooling the class fairly significantly so that all of our damage isn't piled into MGing with haunt up.

    Now, what makes most sense - allowing KJC to remain in the same (or a slightly nerfed, most people seem content with filler only) state for one more raiding tier when all signs indicate it's not making us perform any higher than everyone else, then doing some major changes when the next expansion hits, or rebuilding the core rotation of a class in the middleof an expansion, when all signs seem to indicate they don't know how to fix at this very moment?

  15. #695
    Our damage comes from dots, malefic grasp, and pets. There isn't really much room to wiggle. Dots will get reverted, they hotfixed them even this tier because multidotting was too strong. Malefic grasp roots us, currently we are expected to keep it up 100% of time, if next tier we aren't able to do that, and not get compensation on it (on top of getting low-dps spell on move), we will drop drop severly. And pets won't get buffed because they already got enough complains around BM eating face through pillars. So exactly what changes are there more except those and redesigning class?

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    Any legitimacy to that claim?

    Last time I checked warlocks were still at around the same population, only beating monks.

    I also don't get how you can be claiming it's both not necessary AND too good

    I'll say it again, warlocks are not miles ahead of other classes on any encounters that we use KJC because of it. That means

    a) Either KJC isn't "too good" because it's not making us any better than everyone else
    b) KJC is good, but we apparently need it just to keep up with everyone else, ergo it IS necesary

    and don't even PRETEND warlocks are doing particularly well in pvp right now, let alone without it.

    If you're going to sit there claiming that KJC is some overpowered talent, can you at least offer some basis for that other than your gut feeling?
    That's the thing blizz has noted about the warlock changes, it didn't really do what blizz wanted.

    I think this tweet basically says this:
    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 7 May

    @genericuser661 @x_Evil_Mind_x Yes. We wanted to see if an overhaul rekindled interest or if the problem is something deeper in the design.
    The changes to warlocks didn't make warlocks all that more popular or taken, it's why blizz has decided no more overhauls, as they don't work and won't do what they wanted, the warlock changes were an experiment, one that failed to do totally what they wanted.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 9 May

    @MrNicholes Ideally we try to do a little of both. Some players get bored of the old systems even if they are very well polished.

  17. #697
    Quote Originally Posted by Poochy View Post
    <snip>
    Perhaps a tad off topic, but thanks for that - hadn't ever seen those statements so it's interesting to see how it turned out and how blizzard found the results.

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Or perhaps you just need to use your imagination and stop pretending the only possible, conceivable, plausible, workable solutions that could potentially exist in the wow universe could come down to choosing between "A: massive buff to X - or - B: Accept the end of world is coming"? Your melodramatic post doesn't do anything to help your argument.
    I will start taking count of how many times you use the word 'melodramatic.'

    I'm surprised Blizzard hasn't thought to revisit the pre-Landfall implementation of KJC, whose cast time penalty was rather reasonable for PVE content. That model forced me to pay attention to what I was casting during movement.
    Warlock DOT Haste Spreadsheet 5.4 - Level 90

  19. #699

    Range vs melee: filler spell mechanics and movement

    Ive never played anything but my warlock so ive never thought too much about how a melee can constantly move while casters must stand still most of the time.

    After using kc for the past 6 months it seems very silly that we should be casting a filler spell standing still. I guess my ignorance was bliss, but now that i see the light it's like wtf... Casting while standing still seems so primal at this point in wow.

    They will probably end up giving all casters full movement during filler eventually, but wont be until next expansion.

    At this point in the game it just seems very silly to have to stand still to cast drain soul, for 12 very long seconds

  20. #700
    Stood in the Fire Kagecamia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    You wish.

    KJC was given to warlocks simply because the dev's went all out in the warlock revamp for Pandaria. They knew they had to boost the population and gave warlocks a bunch of the funnest and coolest tools. KJC was one of them. And you know what? It worked. Warlocks are the flavour of the expansion.

    From their POV im sure they knew all along it was too good and that players should have never had it in the first place. The warlock revamp has been a smashing success (in the terms of growing and revitalising the warlock playerbase) and now they have just decided is the right time to reign in some of the ponys given to warlocks.

    And nobody likes having their pony taken away, as shown by this thread.
    Yeah we get it. We don't need another mage or (Insert Class here) coming in to the thread and trying to passively say "sucks to be you, you guys deserved the nerf."
    Last edited by Kagecamia; 2013-06-18 at 02:08 PM.

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