5.4 KJC changes.

[Jessicka]

Oh shit I need to run away from that!
Should I:
- Reapply dots?
No because the currently rolling dots are stronger than what I can do now.

But your dots are pathetic, and maybe the extra uptime you can cover with haunt will make up for it.

- Fel flame?
No because of the way it updates current dots means I'll lose DPS if I fel flame now.

As above.

- Life tap?
No because in about 3 seconds I'm going to be taking damage and I'd rather not die because I'm not topped up.

Healthstone, LT glyph, track your SL stacks, Dark Regen. Not that life tap is genuinely a significant factor in warlocks dying, ever.

- Burning Rush so that I spend less time running?
No because I'll be taking a fair chunk of damage soon and I don't want to die because I'm not topped off.
If my healers can handle it then I can use Burning Rush - which makes it a mandatory talent - which means Blizz will nerf it soon.

Pretty much same again.

You know what I should do when I can't do any of those things?
I know what I'll do. I'll sit out on all the fights like Horridon, Primordius, Ji'Kun, Durumu, Tortos, Lei Shen in the next tier and I'll do abysmally bad DPS on every other fight that requires any movement at all.

Sounds like a solid plan to me... sigh.

The situation you're giving is the low health low mana situation that only ever happens on the verge of a wipe anyway. It just won't happen in regular play, and when it does you'll be losing damage to so much more shit than missing kjc that by comparison the loss is insignificant.

Also, ji kun and lei Shen are the fights where snare+pushback kills people. Wouldn't be surprised if the reckless get killed by it on durumu too. And why aren't you using MF on horridon and primordius???

[Banawani]

And the fire parses ahead are stars aligned rng outliers. It doesn't really matter how much it hurts because that's the whole point. Remember KJC was originally worse than using fel Flame, that wasn't an accident, they thought people would take it as a 'fun' easier passive than fel flame, but everyone saw through it and they buffed it because everyone took AV then stood in shit to do more damage.

Ultimately it comes down to having a passive ability perform better than the active one being wrong headed design. Its a no brainer.

The fire parses aren't bugs though... That'd be like saying the Aff high parses without the bug is RNG outliers... simply because it is.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...all/14/30/avg/

You want to try to dispute those numbers now?

It was worse at first because of scaling. We didn't lose as much damage on procs with non RPPM trinkets and meta gem and combine it with increase int/sp and haste/mastery values. It's kind of obvious why you see such a difference in numbers now vs before isn't it?

You're seriously delusional.

People didn't take AV and stand in damage, as in Heroic Progression more damage taken is more healer mana burned and at 5.0 progression, it was about mana more than throughput. Intentionally taking damage for a very small damage increase (especially with talents that give absorbs so any damage taken is not counted to AV) would get you sat or kicked out of any guild trying to kill heroic bosses.

People took AV because the 15% haste reduction per stack was a big deal.

It's a nobrainer, people are going to be forced to play Demo and no one is going to use T6 talents (with Soul Leech, you do very little damage as most of the damage taken is absorbs, which is not counted and the other two aren't worth the 1.5m CD).

[Gindry]

Spriest skillcap is much more than locks simply because we have to predict movement and other forms of it throughout fights and be able to somehow "stutter-step" just to get off a mindblast while also risking more damage taken otherwise it's a dps loss if we dont

Warlocks are just too easy with KJC and i'm happy to see them brought in line with other casters here.. to those locks complaining about MG and having to spam fel flame.. guess what, shadow priests have to spam shadow word pain for its initial damage.. that's like locks having to spam corruption on the move to retain damage. KJC is a OP talent. Plain and simple.

[Jessicka]

So spec score puts it at 4... 4th isn't strong now? Oh forgot #2 is trash 4 must be abyssmal.

[Rife]

Seriously? What do you think shadow priests do? Man up and fel flame during movement if you have to. We have to spam pain while running, which is even worse.

I think shadow priests have more instants and procs that allow them to do damage while moving and move at 145% movespeed for free at all times. I also think that hitting SWP while moving is not a DPS loss over not hitting anything at all while moving.

Last weeks Durumu logs show that I'm correct.

As an example:
Our Durumu kill last week lasted 3:52.
In that time our spriest used 66 instant cast spells. Which means that for 28% of the time during that fight he could move without losing DPS.
I used 11, which means that for 5% of the fight I could have run around and not lost DPS without KJC.

So for 5.4 am I just supposed to not press anything at all during those 55 globals?
This is why affliction won't be viable. I don't see how this is hard to comprehend.

Your argument against burning rush is sort of silly, too. Your soul leech should be able to absorb enough. We're not exactly talking about running nonstop laps. If unbound will is not needed on a fight, there's no reason not to have burning rush.

Did you read the patch notes at all or are you just jumping on the bandwagon?

Also, Burning Rush is unmitigated damage. You can't absorb it or lower it. You take the damage no matter what. So your point about Soul Leech offsetting it is moot.

[Forgottenone]

Will they nerf it?
-Definitely.

Should they nerf it?
-Yes and no, the nerf would have been better timed for the start of the next expansion when everyone is learning how to replay their class. However if it was needed now fine, but why not allow us to permanently cast our FILLER spells only with the ability allowing us to cast everything for the duration?

Affliction - Malefic Grasp/Drain Soul
Demonology - Shadow Bolt
Destruction - Immolate/Incinerate

Here is a list of spells we would be required to stop and cast:

All warlocks:
1. FEAR
2. Summon Demon
3. Soulwell
4. Drain Life/Harvest Life

Affliction:
- Haunt

Demonology:
- Soulfire

Destruction:
- lol Chaos Bolt


Shamans can cast their filler while moving and it isn't broken in PVE or PVP, Hunters can shoot everything but two of their 90 talents. I am just saying that allowing just our FILLERS should be fine. I swear a lot of people post their opinion regarding JUST PVE or JUST PVP but look at both, people hate that we can burst while moving. This change would force us to plant our feet and burst like everyone else. People hate that we can stand still and Fear, now any time we want to Fear we must stop moving and cast it like a mage does Sheep or a shaman does Hex.

I agree KJC is extremely strong right now and should be changed but don't butcher it to nothing leaving us with lackluster level 90 talents.

*waits to see if anyone just quotes without reading or is already completely bias*

[Arrogant Bastard]

Spriest skillcap is much more than locks simply because we have to predict movement and other forms of it throughout fights and be able to somehow "stutter-step" just to get off a mindblast while also risking more damage taken otherwise it's a dps loss if we dont

Warlocks are just too easy with KJC and i'm happy to see them brought in line with other casters here.. to those locks complaining about MG and having to spam fel flame.. guess what, shadow priests have to spam shadow word pain for its initial damage.. that's like locks having to spam corruption on the move to retain damage. KJC is a OP talent. Plain and simple.

Again...

Why bring warlocks down to Spriests? Why not bring Spriests in line with every other range dps?

You act as if Warlocks are the only caster that can dps on the run.

Hunters can fully dps on the move. Elemental shaman was just buffed by removing the glyph requirement for bolt on the run.

Bring Spriests in line with other range, do not drop Warlocks down to Spriest level. The gameplay should not be a regression to 2005.

If KJC is OP then so is all the other range that can dps on the run.

[Rife]

Here is a list of spells we would be required to stop and cast:

All warlocks:
4. Drain Life/Harvest Life

Affliction:
- Haunt

Demonology:
- Soulfire


*waits to see if anyone just quotes without reading or is already completely bias*

So Affliction and Demo execute phases stop completely if you have to move?

That seems like enough reason to not bring a warlock to a handful of fights in ToT already, plus whatever new mechanics the 5.4 raid will have.

[Deleted]

Seriously? What do you think shadow priests do? Man up and fel flame during movement if you have to. We have to spam pain while running, which is even worse

You say you play warlock, but do you use your brains while you do it? Spamming pain and spamming fel flame is very different thing. Does all priest damage come from your dots? NOPE. MG ticks = 50% damage from dots, fel flame refreshes dots and dot power. I'm sure you can think why its a dps loss to refresh procced dots with worse dots. Do you have spells like haunt that punishes you harshly if you don't channel MG whole duration? GUESS NOT, oh and lets also mention that haunt increases all damage done by 30%, so worse dots = worse haunt is. And you say KjC is op while affliction isn't even that good DPS spec, top parses in most of the fights has been achieved by abusing soulswap "bug".

With these nerfs we can play without lvl90 talents, which is fine by me, i'll just keep playing demo which is superior spec anyway.

[Count Zero]

I don't really get GC's comment about 'locks dying to void zones. I'm just a not-too-shabby Warlock and KJC slow doesn't get me killed, and I don't want to get punished because of other Warlocks who do get killed by it.

I've been killed exactly twice in ToT where not having the KJC snare would have helped me survive, but more importantly paying more attention would have also kept me alive. I made adjustments and those mistakes don't happen anymore.

And to the point about the necessity of KJC -- there are very few things I don't do to min/max my damage output ... keeping with KJC where AV or MF would be higher dps is one of them (unless it's something my guild needs me to do so we can beat a boss). I like having as many epic/legendary parses on Epeenbot and as many WoL rankings as possible, but at the end of the day it just feels more fun be able to cast and move, and to dodge all the stuff I need to dodge while self-snared.

Considering how many things have been made passives because everyone took them (even just looking at Warlocks -- did anyone not take the glyphs for 4th Soul Shard / Burning Ember ? ... Ele Sham glyph for Lightning Bolt on the move ... others I can't think of off the top of my head), maybe they would have considered we all take KJC because we just really love the playstyle. Hunters in my guild do rather well for themselves, and according to raidbots they're doing pretty alright on most encounters, and damn good on several.

I managed before without KJC, and I'll be able to again, but ... I've always been jealous of Hunters even back when they only had to stop to cast one ability. If there were any class I liked anywhere near as much as Warlock, it would have to either be a Hunter or melee ... except I just don't like any of those.

I dunno ... we'll see how it goes ...

[evertonbelmontt]

I'd like it to stay, because I like affliction and the way it works, and without KJC it's impossible to continue like it is currently.

But I stoped caring about changes. And IF GC and his team do the wrong call (fun factor/broken talents/pvp shit as it is ONCE AGAIN) i'll just enjoy FFXIV.
I'm building a whole new PC just to enjoy it.

IF they do the right call, i'll play both. Just for the challenge.

@Gindry

Good one hahahah
so.. you're saying you have to deal with movement..
We have to deal with movement (Manoroth's or PVP: try KJC against a melee and you'll regret not using it right, not as easy as you think it is), we have the WORST mobility of all casters, portal is too unreliable in this whole tier and gateway is for everyone but the lock (healers/tanks, etc) and a bit unreliable.

Hence, KJC is not there to maximize DPS, but to give you the means to do it. Afflic have awful dots if not empowered by Malefic, fel flame isn't an option. Imagine afflic on Lei Shen without KJC? Or Durumu? Or PVP?
You can always change specs, but it won't change the FACT that afflic would be dead. NO ONE in right mind would use it instead of demon or destro.
"Plain and simple."

Also, you don't even have to deal with pet AI.

[Brusalk]

Spriest skillcap is much more than locks simply because we have to predict movement and other forms of it throughout fights and be able to somehow "stutter-step" just to get off a mindblast while also risking more damage taken otherwise it's a dps loss if we dont

Warlocks are just too easy with KJC and i'm happy to see them brought in line with other casters here.. to those locks complaining about MG and having to spam fel flame.. guess what, shadow priests have to spam shadow word pain for its initial damage.. that's like locks having to spam corruption on the move to retain damage. KJC is a OP talent. Plain and simple.

My post in another thread is relevant here:

____________________________________________________________________________________


So, this may up being a long post and I apologize in advance. I may also post it to the 4.4 discussion thread.


Every time I tell people how completely drastic these changes are, and how they will completely kill Warlocks if the changes go through I get a scoff and a "Psh. You guys need the nerf. KjC is OP." The things that people forget though is how Warlocks are completely and utterly built around casting fillers, and that the vast majority of our damage comes as a consequence of these fillers. Embers for Destro, Fury for Demo, DoT damage for Affliction.

For other classes such as SPriests, their damage comes primarily from DP, which is cast by generating orbs by casting MB on CD. That said, it's a CD. Their damage doesn't come as a result of their "filler", it comes as a result of their secondary resource generators. (Which is why in my guide I refer to "Ember Generators" and "Ember Consumers" and not the normal nomenclature of "filler"). Because our damage comes from our "fillers" and is reliant upon them, losing the ability to cast these fillers means we will not only do no damage while moving, but we will also do much lower damage after movement has stopped.


This affects the 3 specs differently. I'd put the order of impact (from least impacted ("best" if you will), to most impacted ("worst")):
1. Demo
2. Destro
3. Affliction


Demo:
Arguably the least impacted by these changes, all due to a spammable ToC in Meta. Being able to plan periods of movement with Demon form timings allows a great amount of flexibility for Demo. While the changes will for sure nerf Demo, it won't be as bad as Destro/Affliction.


Destro:
I'd rate Destro middle of the pack compared to Demo/Aff. Since they've stated they're removing RoF from the single target rotation in 5.4, Destro now effectively has 2 abilities to use while moving: Fel Flame and Conflag.

Conflag allows at most 2 GCDs worth of movement every 24 seconds. Fel Flame has the cost of not only mana, but also removing any Crit Chance snapshotted on Immo. (This will be a BIG-AS-FUCK deal with next tier's set bonuses giving us Crit chance in all cases).

Removing RoF removes all Destro mobility. Even without the MF change, Destro would be in a bad spot simple due to the KjC change.

Compounding onto this problem is the MF change, which removes all ability for Destro to gain extra embers to gain back some of the damage lost by moving, in situations where both the talent would allow you to hit mobs otherwise unhittable, and that the old talent would allow you that the CD version wouldn't. (EG: Horridon)


Affliction:
I don't really even need to talk about Affliction. Pretty much all of Affliction's damage comes directly from channeling. Not being able to move while channeling guts the spec and will easily be the worst off with the KjC change.



The only way I was able to convince my raid leader that these were changes that would gut Warlocks was by (and I was NOT joking) telling him I'd play my SPriest in 5.4 because Warlocks would do no damage in actual raid situations.

[Forgottenone]

So Affliction and Demo execute phases stop completely if you have to move?

That seems like enough reason to not bring a warlock to a handful of fights in ToT already, plus whatever new mechanics the 5.4 raid will have.

Soulfire can be changed but I figured Demonology needed something to the Haunt and Chaos Bolt equivalent. Haunt has to be reapplied once every now and then, stopping briefly to cast it won't kill us, pick up Burning Rush if it is too complicated to get them off then. I am sure mages/shaman will love us if we can do 100% of our execute phase while moving.

KJC needs to be nerfed but not killed, so attempt to help find a happy medium with me rather than wanting it either destroyed (5.4 change) or having it remain the same.

[evertonbelmontt]

If they are really going to stick with this version of KJC, they need to make fillers (Malefic/Drain Soul/Incinerate/SB) castable while moving, but not through KJC, or else it would be mandatory. Just a passive effect of Malefic/SB/Incin.
I would be totally fine with that. No penalty on move while casting filler and the choice to pick one of the other two (useless) talents from tier 6.

[hammock]

Spriest skillcap is much more than locks simply because we have to predict movement and other forms of it throughout fights and be able to somehow "stutter-step" just to get off a mindblast while also risking more damage taken otherwise it's a dps loss if we dont

Warlocks are just too easy with KJC and i'm happy to see them brought in line with other casters here.. to those locks complaining about MG and having to spam fel flame.. guess what, shadow priests have to spam shadow word pain for its initial damage.. that's like locks having to spam corruption on the move to retain damage. KJC is a OP talent. Plain and simple.

Lets not start with the "wah, class x has this when I don't" It gets us nowhere, isn't constructive and is pointless.

I really don't understand gutting 2/3 specs just because of QQ.........

[Rife]

Haunt has to be reapplied once every now and then, stopping briefly to cast it won't kill us

You're forgetting that the damage from Haunt isn't actually from the Haunt hit, it's the MG channelling for 8 seconds after it. Casting a Haunt means Affliction needs 10 solid seconds of no movement at all.

Affliction is already heavily affected by RNG. Combine the current meta/RPPM RNG with needing to be immobile during procs and the whole spec falls in a heap as an unreliable and vastly inferior spec.

[Onionsbro]

My post in another thread is relevant here:

____________________________________________________________________________________


So, this may up being a long post and I apologize in advance. I may also post it to the 4.4 discussion thread.


Every time I tell people how completely drastic these changes are, and how they will completely kill Warlocks if the changes go through I get a scoff and a "Psh. You guys need the nerf. KjC is OP." The things that people forget though is how Warlocks are completely and utterly built around casting fillers, and that the vast majority of our damage comes as a consequence of these fillers. Embers for Destro, Fury for Demo, DoT damage for Affliction.

For other classes such as SPriests, their damage comes primarily from DP, which is cast by generating orbs by casting MB on CD. That said, it's a CD. Their damage doesn't come as a result of their "filler", it comes as a result of their secondary resource generators. (Which is why in my guide I refer to "Ember Generators" and "Ember Consumers" and not the normal nomenclature of "filler"). Because our damage comes from our "fillers" and is reliant upon them, losing the ability to cast these fillers means we will not only do no damage while moving, but we will also do much lower damage after movement has stopped.


This affects the 3 specs differently. I'd put the order of impact (from least impacted ("best" if you will), to most impacted ("worst")):
1. Demo
2. Destro
3. Affliction


Demo:
Arguably the least impacted by these changes, all due to a spammable ToC in Meta. Being able to plan periods of movement with Demon form timings allows a great amount of flexibility for Demo. While the changes will for sure nerf Demo, it won't be as bad as Destro/Affliction.


Destro:
I'd rate Destro middle of the pack compared to Demo/Aff. Since they've stated they're removing RoF from the single target rotation in 5.4, Destro now effectively has 2 abilities to use while moving: Fel Flame and Conflag.

Conflag allows at most 2 GCDs worth of movement every 24 seconds. Fel Flame has the cost of not only mana, but also removing any Crit Chance snapshotted on Immo. (This will be a BIG-AS-FUCK deal with next tier's set bonuses giving us Crit chance in all cases).

Removing RoF removes all Destro mobility. Even without the MF change, Destro would be in a bad spot simple due to the KjC change.

Compounding onto this problem is the MF change, which removes all ability for Destro to gain extra embers to gain back some of the damage lost by moving, in situations where both the talent would allow you to hit mobs otherwise unhittable, and that the old talent would allow you that the CD version wouldn't. (EG: Horridon)


Affliction:
I don't really even need to talk about Affliction. Pretty much all of Affliction's damage comes directly from channeling. Not being able to move while channeling guts the spec and will easily be the worst off with the KjC change.



The only way I was able to convince my raid leader that these were changes that would gut Warlocks was by (and I was NOT joking) telling him I'd play my SPriest in 5.4 because Warlocks would do no damage in actual raid situations.

This is all incredibly accurate. Additional problems I can see arising are:

Affliction:
-Obvious dps losses via procs that you can't fully use because you can't stop moving to channel MG
- Holy hell execute phases are going to suck for affliction
-Overall dps loss because you may be forced to sit on Dark Soul for "movement-free" periods, just so you can get the full effect out of it

Destro:
- I think ember spending could be a serious problem. Where you're faced with the dilemma of spending embers at suboptimal times just because you have a window where you're not required to move

I think Brusalk's sentiment here is very far from hyberbole. These changes will gut 2/3 of the warlock options and we'll basically be pigeon-holed into playing demo. Under the current planned changes affliction will become nonexistent, and destro could see a little light as a niche spec where FnB is really strong or where Chaos Bolt burst is needed (aka Ra-den).

[Arrogant Bastard]

KJC needs to be nerfed but not killed, so attempt to help find a happy medium with me rather than wanting it either destroyed (5.4 change) or having it remain the same.

People keep saying this and I really do not understand why.

Why does it need to be nerfed at all?

[Gindry]

@brusalk i agree with you that afflic warlocks would be in a worse situation, but how does that support the theory that you're still worse off than a spriest when it comes to movement? As a spriest, most fights require Solace and Insanity, which needs to be channeled its full duration to receive its benefit.. if we have to move, and we're sitting at 3 orbs on something like durumu goo phase, we have to dump DP on them and stutter step insanity. (do note that insanity is one of our higher damage spells single-target here). Also, as we spam Shadow Word: Pain, we also have to worry about snapshotted dots.. ESPECIALLY this tier with our 2-set bonus. If we have a 1 min long shadow word: pain on our target or UVLS dots on our target, we can literally do nothing but hope for a DI proc, as we'd gain more on not having to waste GCDs on refreshing SWP for a minute or a UVLS dot.

I am convinced affliction is being nerfed very hard here, i guess i'm just venting as a spriest and I've always envied the thought of having KJC. I can't say I know enough about warlocks to justify my standing.

[Forgottenone]

You're forgetting that the damage from Haunt isn't actually from the Haunt hit, it's the MG channelling for 8 seconds after it. Casting a Haunt means Affliction needs 10 solid seconds of no movement at all.

Affliction is already heavily affected by RNG. Combine the current meta/RPPM RNG with needing to be immobile during procs and the whole spec falls in a heap as an unreliable and vastly inferior spec.

No I completely understand that it needs to be casted but people(some warlocks and other classes) and Blizzard want it drastically changed from what it currently is. So help me think of a solution to changing it? Make Drain Soul stationary then? We NEED to have something from affliction that is part of our nuke be stationary for PvE and PvP and Haunt seemed to be the best bet.

*Edit*

Live with the fact that KJC is going to be changed and that Blizzard does not want ALL of our abilities to be casted while moving. The sooner you come to terms with that the sooner we as a whole can find a solution that Blizzard approves us that will allow KJC to be useful still rather than a fish out of water.