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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by rederoin View Post
    Ilvl is all that matters to me.

    Blizzard can give hc raiders whatever rewards they feel like, as long as us non-raiders can also progress trough the game(with Ilvl's).
    If you don't care about Ilvl's. why does non-raiders getting high ilvl gear matter to you?
    Ilvl is all that matters because it's required for Heroic progression. I fail to see the "rewarding" part of it because it's all really just a means.

    And I don't care if non-raiders are getting high ilvl gear. I care because LFR's mere existence diminishes MY rewards because I spend more time and play better for reskins and added mechanics and now I don't even have HAVE to play better to see the instance.

    It's because of LFR that I quit raiding. I feel like an idiot trying to improve myself when LFR is a click away.
    I use to be motivated to advance in the instance so I can witness it for myself but LFR is right there.
    LFR is a question to raiders: do you want to continue this harder path for nearly identical rewards?

    I said "no" and it sure as hell seems most people are leaving the raid scene as well.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    Yea well one of my friends came back for a week of free play time got his itemlevel up to ToT LFR entrance level, went in cleared it and he said ok well now I am content clear for this tier, maybe I will look in again around 5.4 or something see ya.

    But you are quite right with struggling normal mode guilds going down to flex, I see that as a natural development come 5.4 but that is just how it is.
    Your friend is smart. I play similarly, with the exception that I have numerous alts that I like to raid LFR on for the fun of it. Saves me money, too when i can unsubscribe between xpacs/patches.

  3. #103
    There already is a raid leader role assigned in LFR. Also, loot cannot be distributed other than random role or the RL would just queue with guildies and only give them loot. Only way that would work is if you could not queue in any type of group. Purely solo queue, and if you ended up in a raid with anyone else from your server, or any of your friends lists, then the RL role would automatically go to someone else who was in the raid alone.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    I asked someone if he wanted to do normal mode, but he said "well I am content clear i've seen it all in LFR, I do not care about normal mode next tiers LFR will have almost equally as good gear so why bother".

    And well steadily on my realm more and more raiding guilds are dying off. So clearly more people are saying "I do not care about normal or heroic, I get content clear by doing LFR". And when I look at the guild rankings on my realm I can tell you one thing over 75% of the guilds who do normal mode will have seen the final boss in LFR before they reach him in normal mode.
    They do not represent everyone in LFR.
    Why do people raid normal and heroic if they can "see the content" in LFR ?
    Because LFR is NOT seeing the content.
    It is a fraction of it, but many are stuck in LFR for more reasons than simply not wanting to move up.
    More because they cannot.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2013-06-16 at 05:07 PM.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    Ilvl is all that matters because it's required for Heroic progression. I fail to see the "rewarding" part of it because it's all really just a means.

    And I don't care if non-raiders are getting high ilvl gear. I care because LFR's mere existence diminishes MY rewards because I spend more time and play better for reskins and added mechanics and now I don't even have HAVE to play better to see the instance.

    It's because of LFR that I quit raiding. I feel like an idiot trying to improve myself when LFR is a click away.
    I use to be motivated to advance in the instance so I can witness it for myself but LFR is right there.
    LFR is a question to raiders: do you want to continue this harder path for nearly identical rewards?

    I said "no" and it sure as hell seems most people are leaving the raid scene as well.
    Ye, I really think you're in the minority of raiders who think that LFR somehow affects how fun normal or hc raiding is.

    So I really got nothing better to say, than 'tough luck'. They won't never cater to the minority of a minority.
    They could have focusses more on 5-mans and lower the amount of raid encounters, I suppose that would also have worked. Although more raiding content would keep the raiders happy, so they went with LFR instead.
    Last edited by rederoin; 2013-06-16 at 05:11 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandawatch View Post
    Raid Leaders would kick the trolls immediately and you'd see an abrupt end to the trolling.
    LFR leaders already can do almost everything normal raid leaders can, except kick people out of the raid. Oh, sure, they can kick the trolls out, but also we can have the delight of having a troll for LFR leader and see a mess of him kicking people at random for the weirdest reasons, and sometimes, no reason at all. You went above him in the DPS meters? Kicked. You dare offer advice to the LFR leader? Kicked. See where I'm getting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandawatch View Post
    They could distribute loot using a simple roll system that would make the raid seem more like a "real" raid.
    The biggest problem with that idea that you are not seeing it is: a premade group of.. well, two or three or five or ten, made of guildmates and friends, have one of their members as raid leader, and then PRESTO! All the loot goes to them, including loot they already have, for the purpose of sharding, and the raid cannot kick them out because? Only the raid leader has that power. So the rest of the LFR group needs to drop out of the group, getting a thirty-minute deserter debuff, since they could not kick the troll leader out. And said 'troll leader' would remain inside, waiting for the guild to fill up again, to keep on getting all the loot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandawatch View Post
    They could take the time to explain the fights rather than deal with the gogogo-ers that currently dominate both LFR and 5 mans.
    LFR raids are basically "don't stand in the fire" kind of fights. If you can't bother to move while whatever you're standing on is harming you, nothing in the world will convince you to move.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandawatch View Post
    Want to pull the boss before the tanks are ready? Get the boot. Want to go AFK instead of pulling your weight? Get the boot. Etc.
    That much I agree on, but to get such power would mean opening the doors to much more griefing and trolling. Basically, we're taking the bucket catching the water from one leaking in the ceiling and moving to another leaking in the ceiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandawatch View Post
    You'd be surprised how effective a real Raid Leader would be. They basically run the end-game of WoW, and that's why it's worked so well up to this point. I say give them the tools they need to fix LFR, or get rid of LFR altogether. In it's current form, LFR is a failed experiment. I fear Flexraids will just be more of the same.
    The biggest underlying problem of your idea is that we have no control on who would become the LFR leader. And if you get a troll or a griefer or a premade group member as a leader, I'm positively sure you'll be wishing you only had to deal with the AFK'ers and 'fire eaters' from before. Your 'fix' would only cause more problems than it solves.
    Also, the LFR is not a failure. It succeeds exactly at what it came to accomplish: allow the non-raider casual gamer to see the game's full content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandawatch View Post
    People don't want to just "see the content." They want to RAID! And real raiding requires a real Raid Leader.
    Yes, and no. Casual gamers, who for any number of reasons cannot participate in normal raids, want simply to 'see the content'. Also, 'real raiding' does not simply require a 'real raid leader'. It also requires a group who knows each other and can work together, who knows the strengths and weaknesses of their teammates. A good leader can only go so far without a good army.
    If you really want, as you put it, to RAID, to be in a 'real raid', you unfortunately need to make the commitment to be online at a previously established hour, at a previously established day of the week, and devote a previously established number of hours for this raid. And some people just cannot make that commitment, again, for a number of reasons.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2013-06-16 at 05:18 PM.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    They do not represent everyone in LFR.
    Why do people raid normal and heroic if they can "see the content" in LFR ?
    Because LFR is NOT seeing the content.
    It is a fraction of it, but many are stuck in LFR for more reasons than simply not wanting to move up.
    More because they cannot.
    you raid normal/heroic for the challenge, but as DrStevebrule at the top of this page said "do you want to continue the harder path for nearly identical rewards?" and on my realm the trend is that people are simply saying no.
    They subscribe for a short amount of time during a patch, see the new raid instance and its bosses in LFR and then say goodbye again.
    Sure some are still trying but more and more are just realising it simply ain't worth the time and effort.

    And honestly it ain't fun to clear normal mode if you've weeks before already cleared it in LFR.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    you raid normal/heroic for the challenge, but as DrStevebrule at the top of this page said "do you want to continue the harder path for nearly identical rewards?" and on my realm the trend is that people are simply saying no.
    They subscribe for a short amount of time during a patch, see the new raid instance and its bosses in LFR and then say goodbye again.
    Sure some are still trying but more and more are just realising it simply ain't worth the time and effort.

    And honestly it ain't fun to clear normal mode if you've weeks before already cleared it in LFR.
    And can you take an amount of noise, which so far has been overwhemingly one-sided on this forum as an example to prove that.
    How many threads here have people asking for the removal of heroic difficulty compared to those asking for the removal of LFR.

    A very big assumption, and one they cannot prove.
    I am myself in LFR only because of the inability to meet the artificially created requirements of normal raiding.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Why bother raiding heroics if it's just a harder version of why you already did?

    People should really ask themselves why so many people are flat-out rejecting normal/heroic raiding for the lesser and more tedious experience of LFR. People should also worry less about how others are spending their time in the game. If normal raiding is so damn wonderful then why do the huge majority of people stay away from it.
    Why not incentivize normal/heroic? Blizzard incentivized 25m when they saw a decline in people doing those.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    you raid normal/heroic for the challenge, but as DrStevebrule at the top of this page said "do you want to continue the harder path for nearly identical rewards?" and on my realm the trend is that people are simply saying no.
    They subscribe for a short amount of time during a patch, see the new raid instance and its bosses in LFR and then say goodbye again.
    Sure some are still trying but more and more are just realising it simply ain't worth the time and effort.

    And honestly it ain't fun to clear normal mode if you've weeks before already cleared it in LFR.
    Yep. There should be different raid instances for the different modes.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by rederoin View Post
    Ye, I really think you're in the minority of raiders who think that LFR somehow affects how fun normal or hc raiding is.

    So I really got nothing better to say, than 'tough luck'. They won't never cater to the minority of a minority.
    They could have focusses more on 5-mans and lower the amount of raid encounters, I suppose that would also have worked. Although more raiding content would keep the raiders happy, so they went with LFR instead.
    I think I'm one of the minority of raiders who realize why they are losing or have lost interest in raiding.
    Most people are dropping from the race without going on forums or telling their friends why they stopped.

    But it's not about pleasing the "minority of raiders" it's about getting ALL players addicted and wanting to raid.
    Blizzard is running into a huge problem of providing a lukewarm experience (ala LFR and the destruction of rewards gated by effort)
    which is sending players off into other games.

    The thing about convenience is that it cuts length. The only sense to do this is if you're sole focus is not player retention but that initial pay up front price of the game.

    Take RNG for example, I bet this "majority" would love to eradicate RNG in favor of a more garaunteed loot drop approach.
    Is it good for Blizzard in the long run when they live off subscriptions? No, and that's what they've explained. They know players would eventually stop running LFR if they had no reasons to go.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    LFR isn't broken. LFR is pretty much the best thing to happen to the WoW community. As someone who used to do hardcore raids, I can say that LFR has completely and totally killed any desire that I have to be shackled to a raiding guild. Giving people content without guilds is bad for raiding guilds because they're no longer mandatory to have some sort of character progression, but it's great for the players because they don't have to deal with abusive guilds that attempt to force them to play X nights per week and guilt them when they can't show up.
    Guilds are the lifeblood of an MMO. Without them it's just millions of people playing a single player game.

    And no one forced you to raid X nights a week. You made a commitment to a group of 9 other people, all of whom managed to show up. By not honoring your commitment you're showing a lack of respect for the 9 other people's time. You felt guilty because you let them down after they welcomed you on their team.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsuna View Post
    LFR doesn't need to be fixed, it just needs to be removed OR launched a tier after the content was available on normal. The casuals will still see all of the content, the only difference is their sub/unsub cycle is pushed backwards a few months as they have to wait longer for content to available in an easier format. The players who are on the fence on whether to be full on LFR mode or want to try normals will recognize that the content is already available to them and all they need to do is go out and see it, just like was done in Classic and BC, where no such easy modes existed.
    I have to say the idea of realeasing lfr 1 tier late is probably the best one i have heard since the discussion of fixing lfr came about, i tip my hat to you sir however i don't see how this would work for the last tier of each expansion, maybe it could be released 5 or so months after?

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by earthran View Post
    I have to say the idea of realeasing lfr 1 tier late is probably the best one i have heard since the discussion of fixing lfr came about, i tip my hat to you sir however i don't see how this would work for the last tier of each expansion, maybe it could be released 5 or so months after?
    That's sort of like saying "Because you're poor, you're getting free pizza. However, we let other people eat some of it first. You can reheat it if you don't like the toothmarks."

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    I think it was Preach who mentioned that a delayed LFR system would help the state of the game.
    Parroting his ideas doesn't make your argument better.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    The two groups you are comparing are completely different. You cannot compare normal/casual players with hardcore players - it's apples and oranges.
    Comparing many LFG users to normal raiders is comparing apples and oranges as well. Even if normal raids were dropped in difficulty to the LFG difficulty level, many LFG users still wouldn't raid normals. Many players can't log in at the same time every day or they play at weird hours. Many players don't want the politics and drama of a raiding guild. 45 minutes of drama in LFG is better than endless drama every time you log in. Many players would rather have a 15 minute queue than sit in Org for an hour, while a pug raid leader reserves gear, demands unreasonable ilvls and tries to sneak his guildee/friend in greens into the raid. Many players want to play a specific spec/class that they are talked out of in a pug or raiding guild.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandawatch View Post
    I don't understand the people that claim LFR is fine as it is. It's a cesspool.
    LFG is far from fine and at times "cesspool" is an apt description for it. However, as myself and many other posters have pointed out in this thread: your ideas are horrible. Any discussion for the improvement of LFG is sidetracked by demands for it's removal or proposals that only serve to benefit players who don't use LFG.

    Anyone who suggests LFG should be removed, doesn't understand what the LFG provides for many players or how many players would be alienated by it's removal. Some LFG users will never ever be normal raiders.

  16. #116
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    It would take a lot more to fix WoW... I love the old heroic dungeons, CC and some tactics on the boss was fun, it had a risk. Don't get me wrong I have tried Challenge Modes but I just can't STAND being timed. If they made LFD queue for normals and made heroic dungeons require a invited group and no time, I'd be so satisfied.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    No, I can perfect LFR according to your train of thought.... ready?

    Mail LFR loot to all players when they hit 90.

    It's genius, it's what everyone ultimately wants apparently. BUT even better, what if we added CHOICES! Right because choices are always good? So you can choose NOT to have gear mailed to you and so you can still seek challenges in LFR and Normal right?

    I see no problem with this /fuckmylifeihatetheseforums
    Oh wait, I forgot: people like doing a horrible raid like Heart of Fear and wiping on bosses like Durumu and Lei Shen 5+ times only to get 17 gold in return for 10 months straight, never seeing any progress, gear (unless they farm valor for gear), and legendary quest stuff; such a great idea and design from Blizzard.

    How silly of me. Thank you, Mr. Hardcore raider.

    I'm very happy you don't work for Blizzard.
    Last edited by Orkwuzhere; 2013-06-17 at 04:01 PM.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsuna View Post
    LFR doesn't need to be fixed, it just needs to be removed OR launched a tier after the content was available on normal. The casuals will still see all of the content, the only difference is their sub/unsub cycle is pushed backwards a few months as they have to wait longer for content to available in an easier format. The players who are on the fence on whether to be full on LFR mode or want to try normals will recognize that the content is already available to them and all they need to do is go out and see it, just like was done in Classic and BC, where no such easy modes existed.
    What is this, "post a worse idea than the OP" day?

  19. #119
    This is supposed to fix wow? lol. Removing GC would fix wow. just look at the amazingly stupid nerfs to passive defense abilities in 5.4. If it isn't broken don't fix it. Who complained about hunters, shadow priests, and boomies having added defense in form. Added to that why make KJC for warlocks a cd then remove the cd so it's always on and then revert to a nerfed version of the first.

    The mean is a tard when it comes to lead systems designing.

    And upvoting someone to great LFR raid leader only means they can show their true colors once in power.

    No to your ideas sorry.

  20. #120
    The battleground Wintergrasp used to have 1 raid leader and quite frequently that 1 leader would kick random people to let his/her friends in or just for the fun of it. Nice idea in theory but no way it can work.

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