Thread: Nazgrim

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  1. #301
    just because you defeat someone or something doesn't mean they have to die.

  2. #302
    The Lightbringer Agoonga's Avatar
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    Hopefully Garrosh will get the Sha beaten out of him before Nazgrim has to pay the ultimate price for being a loyal soldier.

  3. #303
    Reminds me of when Bolvar died in Wrath. He was a pretty big deal to alliance throughout vanilla and burning crusade as he was basically the human leader. Then he died abruptly and for no good reason.

    At least nazgrim's death makes sense. He is an honorable warrior. You don't get to be a general in the horde by picking and choosing when you want to follow orders, you just keep your oath and serve loyally. The best you can hope for is when you kill him he says something like he knew the warchief was terrible but it was his duty to serve.

    I honestly have more respect for those who continue to serve garrosh and end up getting killed because of it than I do the oathbreakers and traitors that turned against him, despite the fact he is a giant pile of crap and a terrible leader.
    I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Since this is a subject on Nazgrim, he is a character who, frankly, is just a disappointment. He could have shown a kind of conflicting intrest, given his position as Garrosh's first hand man, but one who saw what Garrosh was doing to the horde. He could have been someone who questioned his own loyalty, such as the difference between his king or his country. He choose to side with his king, and abandon his country. That unfortunately crossed the line.
    Garrosh is still the lawful warchief, appointed by the previous warchief. The Horde does have a mechanism for changing warchiefs: the honorable challenge. The way Cairne challenged Garrosh, or Garrosh challenged Thrall before Wrath.

    Vol'jin choosing to raise a rebellion instead of challenging Garrosh directly is a form of cowardice. It demonstrates that Vol'jin is willing to ignore the traditions and laws of the of the Horde when it suits him. I think it is perfectly reasonable for a loyal orc to stand with the lawful warchief in the face of an unlawful rebellion.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by RohanV View Post
    Vol'jin choosing to raise a rebellion instead of challenging Garrosh directly is a form of cowardice.
    No, it puts into perspective just how incredibly flawed the Mak'Gora is. It doesn't matter what your views are or how dumb you might be, if you're physically stronger then you're going to have a much better shot. Don't forget, before the Scourge interrupted the first duel, Garrosh was winning (seriously, check a random video of it or something, Garrosh had 5-10% more health than Thrall at the time of the interruption). That's an absolute crime.

    Similarly, Cairne only challenged Garrosh because he, being a Tauren and all, knew he was much more physically apt than his adversary, and unsurprisingly, he dominated a large part of the fight. He just didn't take Magatha's appearance into account.
    Last edited by Coffer; 2013-06-13 at 08:33 PM.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by RohanV View Post
    Vol'jin choosing to raise a rebellion instead of challenging Garrosh directly is a form of cowardice. It demonstrates that Vol'jin is willing to ignore the traditions and laws of the of the Horde when it suits him. I think it is perfectly reasonable for a loyal orc to stand with the lawful warchief in the face of an unlawful rebellion.
    Vol'jin a more rogue like class, he waits until the right opportunity to strike.

    On a different side, i'm not sure how this Mak'gora would go, a warrior will have the upper hand quite easily in a cornered arena against an opponent which relies on range.

    Secondly, directly challenging Garrosh would have served no purpose, Thrall didn't chose Cairne was successor because he was a Tauren, what do you think would have the Orcs done IF Vol'jin challenged to a Mak'gora and actually won this thing?

    To get this straight, a Troll as Warchief which killed off the most popular orc? Speaking of a situation during Cata obviously.
    The Horde would have been destabilizied as well because if Vol'jin would have become Warchief afterwards, the Orc would go on a rebellion to "Take their Horde back".


    Obviously this whole thing ignores the concept of Honor & Loyalty, but Honor & Loyalty have rarely something to do with rational thoughts.
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  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Coffer View Post
    No, it puts into perspective just how incredibly flawed the Mak'Gora is. It doesn't matter what your views are or how dumb you might be, if you're physically stronger then you're going to have a much better shot. Don't forget, before the Scourge interrupted the first duel, Garrosh was winning (seriously, check a random video of it or something, Garrosh had 5-10% more health than Thrall at the time of the interruption). That's an absolute crime.

    Similarly, Cairne only challenged Garrosh because he, being a Tauren and all, knew he was much more physically apt than his adversary, and unsurprisingly, he dominated a large part of the fight. He just didn't take Magatha's appearance into account.
    I'm not saying that it is a good system. But it is the system that the Horde have chosen, the system they feel matches their culture and philosophy. The system that both Thrall and Garrosh respected. Thus someone in that culture would respect that system.

    For example, if Varian died, and someone started a rebellion to establish a democracy instead of crowning Anduin, a lot of people would still side with Anduin, even though our real-life culture holds that democracy is better than monarchy.

  8. #308
    Pit Lord Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RohanV View Post
    Garrosh is still the lawful warchief, appointed by the previous warchief. The Horde does have a mechanism for changing warchiefs: the honorable challenge. The way Cairne challenged Garrosh, or Garrosh challenged Thrall before Wrath.

    Vol'jin choosing to raise a rebellion instead of challenging Garrosh directly is a form of cowardice. It demonstrates that Vol'jin is willing to ignore the traditions and laws of the of the Horde when it suits him. I think it is perfectly reasonable for a loyal orc to stand with the lawful warchief in the face of an unlawful rebellion.
    lol seriously, talking of ignored traditions with Garrosh allowing dark shamanism (that is a twisted and depraved version of the shamanism practiced in Draenor) and twisting himself and his "true Horde" willingly with the power of what remained of one of the most horrific beings ever existed in the world, touch lightly the hypocrisy.

    Garrosh would have NO room for talking about traditions, after all that he's doing. Vol'jin never respected Garrosh, and had no reasons for do it so, since Garrosh did absolutely nothing for obtain even a drop of it.

  9. #309
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Garrosh had Vol'jin stabbed in the back. You can't in any possible sense try and pull the 'Vol'jin's rebellion is cowardly' bullshit.
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  10. #310
    Herald of the Titans Ihnasir's Avatar
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    You guys didn't see it coming that we'd fight Nazgrim in SoO?

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by RohanV View Post
    I'm not saying that it is a good system. But it is the system that the Horde have chosen, the system they feel matches their culture and philosophy. The system that both Thrall and Garrosh respected. Thus someone in that culture would respect that system.
    Makes it all the more shocking that someone "supposedly intelligent" like Thrall didn't notice the glaring flaws with it. Sure, rules are rules, but some are meant to be changed, not respected. And considering how the Horde evolved under Thrall, the Mak'Gora doesn't work anymore.

  12. #312
    Nazgrel shows up: "I've come to aid you, heroes."
    Vol'jin: "You alive, mon! Glad you came to your senses!"
    Nazgrel: "Huh?"
    Vol'jin: "And you finally decided to wear that wolf-hat again."
    Nazgrel: Son of a... you confused me with Nazgrim too?"
    Vol'jin: "...what..."
    Nazgrel: "FML"
    Vol'jin: "Onward, bruddas! Nazgrim fights wid' us, and he has his hat again!"

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Geary View Post
    Nazgrel shows up: "I've come to aid you, heroes."
    Vol'jin: "You alive, mon! Glad you came to your senses!"
    Nazgrel: "Huh?"
    Vol'jin: "And you finally decided to wear that wolf-hat again."
    Nazgrel: Son of a... you confused me with Nazgrim too?"
    Vol'jin: "...what..."
    Nazgrel: "FML"
    Vol'jin: "Onward, bruddas! Nazgrim fights wid' us, and he has his hat again!"
    Hahaha, that's to good. Gave me a good chuckle for the day

  14. #314
    Pit Lord Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffer View Post
    Makes it all the more shocking that someone "supposedly intelligent" like Thrall didn't notice the glaring flaws with it. Sure, rules are rules, but some are meant to be changed, not respected. And considering how the Horde evolved under Thrall, the Mak'Gora doesn't work anymore.
    All this discussion about the "system" is pointless, there is seriously no standard about the changing of the Warchief position:

    1- Blackhand has been "democratically" chosen (with the crowd manipulated by Gul'dan);
    2- Doomhammer killed Blackhand and took the position by force;
    3- Thrall has been almost-democratically chosen (the orcish people decided to follow him for a lot of reasons)
    4- Garrosh has been just appointed for "succession", simply chosen by Thrall.

    So if someone would decide to just kill Garrosh and become Warchief, there are no "traditions" that openly say that is the wrong way. Vol'jin, on the other hand, is much more interested to get rid of Garrosh than becoming the big boss.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-06-13 at 09:21 PM.

  15. #315
    The Patient Paladinne1's Avatar
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    Because he gives loot!

    In a more lore-related reason: he's a soldier, and he's doing his duty to his leader. Nothing more, nothing less.
    [sic]

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Garrosh had Vol'jin stabbed in the back. You can't in any possible sense try and pull the 'Vol'jin's rebellion is cowardly' bullshit.
    Since when "being stabbed in the back" is a mark of courage? In fact, "arrow from the shadows to pierce a black heart" doesn't sound very brave either.

  17. #317
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    Since when "being stabbed in the back" is a mark of courage? In fact, "arrow from the shadows to pierce a black heart" doesn't sound very brave either.
    Thats the point! People cannot call Vol'jin a coward for his rebellion when Garrosh performed the most cowardly act possible.
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  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Thats the point! People cannot call Vol'jin a coward for his rebellion when Garrosh performed the most cowardly act possible.
    Don't know if thats the case here. Garrosh is the boss, he sent his men to silently kill a guy who is freaking annoying. There is no reason for a big duel here, there is just some guy who needs to be shut the hell up. Since Vol'Jin managed to actually survive and raise some armies against Garrosh to counter the whole "being assassinated" thing, maybe Garrosh will want to duel him now, when he actually means something.

  19. #319
    Pit Lord Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    Since when "being stabbed in the back" is a mark of courage? In fact, "arrow from the shadows to pierce a black heart" doesn't sound very brave either.
    The difference? Vol'jin warned Garrosh. Garrosh instead just did it and stop, by saying "i send you on the core of the continent for doing this mission, you know, for test your loyalty". This doesn't sound as a warning to me.

    Yeah, we know that Garrosh wanted to kill Vol'jin in that way for a precise reason, but the comparison with the "arrow in da black heart" is shallow.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by chrth View Post
    I understand. (Go ahead and edit)

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-13 at 02:07 PM ----------



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