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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Is it? =/
    I was bored a few weeks ago and decided to go Marksmanship on Twins heroic for the hell of it. While completely butchering the rotation and messing up about everything I could possibly mess up, I got rank 1 for god knows what reason.
    Obviously any monkey can rank a spec that noone plays.

    What I mean is its harder to rank when its being played, because CA is abused by wankers.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlaena View Post
    What I mean is its harder to rank when its being played, because CA is abused by wankers.
    But how is that any different from guilds assigning a Survival Hunter solely to AoE bats on Tortos for example, or a Beast Mastery Hunter keeping his pet on Horridon the whole fight?
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Dreamer, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Frenzy, mini Llama.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    But how is that any different from guilds assigning a Survival Hunter solely to AoE bats on Tortos for example, or a Beast Mastery Hunter keeping his pet on Horridon the whole fight?
    You still have wankers in SV rolling stings on the DA massives etc, but the abuse is less common as BM and SV. Ranks on a fight like Tortos or Horridon have really no indication on how good you are.

    So you're fighting Shannox and get an !Aimed proc. You could drop it onto the boss, or you could let it slide onto that dog over there without anyone noticing.

    Serpent Sting abuse is there, but much less common than fishing for CA crits. I could be wrong, but it feels as though the opportunities for CA whoring are very common.
    Last edited by Carlaena; 2013-06-18 at 10:42 AM.

  4. #44
    You can't rank as SV on tortos (well a good rank anyways) unless your entire guild helps you out for that parse.. i.e. 100% on bats, stunning bats and kicking turtles through for the debuff, tricks, etc etc.. I've tried padding on that fight and the best I have done is 71 rank with 434k.. to come close to the 1 million dps top parse i'd need a miracle and the entire raid helping me as I mentioned..

    And horridon, alot more people play BM for it now since the last patch and the boost to beast cleave.. And even the top SV parses are ppl who tunnel the boss.. So that statement is irrelevant.. All top parses are ppl who tunnel the boss on that fight.. the only difference being there are only a handful that play MM..

    Same goes for every other fight.. only a handful of 'skilled' players play MM, solely cuz they're bored and they want #1 parses.. I too switched to MM not long ago out of boredom, without even practicing it in LFR and never having played the spec since firelands.. And I snagged multiple rank 1's.. While not knowing the optimal CA rotation and botching up my focus and ISS uptime etc etc.. Like the poster above said, a monkey could play MM and rank.. The only ppl who play MM are to put it bluntly, terrible players who can't ever get a rank as BM/SV and/or they are playing it cuz they 'love' the spec and aren't in progression guilds so their dps doesn't matter..

    TL;DR, padding for high parses is different.. The sample size is still larger for BM/SV and exponentially smaller for MM..

  5. #45
    Field Marshal carlosanjos's Avatar
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    not a long time ago on a Q&A with the Devs, GC mentioned hunters need some tweaking, maybe a revamp 'ish' would be the best. Our rotations are based in a huge load of spells. which makes things even worse for MM

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlaena View Post
    You still have wankers in SV rolling stings on the DA massives etc, but the abuse is less common as BM and SV. Ranks on a fight like Tortos or Horridon have really no indication on how good you are.

    So you're fighting Shannox and get an !Aimed proc. You could drop it onto the boss, or you could let it slide onto that dog over there without anyone noticing.

    Serpent Sting abuse is there, but much less common than fishing for CA crits. I could be wrong, but it feels as though the opportunities for CA whoring are very common.
    Maybe, I'm personally not too concerned with ranks so I haven't put much thought into it. But if I wanted to cheese an easy rank I would probably go Survival and dot things I'm not meant to dot. I'll admit that this tier particularly CA can be abused quite well on a handful of fights. But generally there are more scenarios where you can dot things that you're not meant to dot, compared to fishing for a CA crit on something you're not meant to kill.

    My point was that cheesing happens in all specs. It's not a Marksmanship exclusive thing.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Dreamer, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Frenzy, mini Llama.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Maybe, I'm personally not too concerned with ranks so I haven't put much thought into it. But if I wanted to cheese an easy rank I would probably go Survival and dot things I'm not meant to dot. I'll admit that this tier particularly CA can be abused quite well on a handful of fights. But generally there are more scenarios where you can dot things that you're not meant to dot, compared to fishing for a CA crit on something you're not meant to kill.

    My point was that cheesing happens in all specs. It's not a Marksmanship exclusive thing.

    You're not getting the point.. it's not about cheesing opportunity.. 2 factors come into play when it comes to ranking.. sample size and sample quality.. 1) MM sample size is small.. 2) It's largely comprised of lower skilled players..

    1) It's like if you were in a top guild and you got a rank on a fight that only 10 other guilds have killed.. as opposed to you getting a rank when 1000 other guilds have killed it.. Literally if I were to go into the raid (hypothetically if I am in a top 10 guild and i'm the 10th guild to kill the boss), and I bring out a monkey and put him on my chair and he starts wailing on the keyboard.. I will still end up ranking #10 or the last of however many hunters have killed it..

    2) If at this point I were to do 10m normal mode Jinrokh.. where 8000+ guilds have killed it on heroic and only the extremely casual and less skilled player base are still killing it on normal.. then i'd have a much easier time ranking, regardless of spec..

    Both sampling size and quality works against MM.. Granted there are a few solid players that play MM occasionally out of boredom, but they're not the majority..

  8. #48
    But... that's exactly what I said in my first post. I'm not the one disagreeing that it's easy to rank as Marksmanship simply because no one plays it right now. All I said was that cheesing happens in all specs, and that's it's not harder as Marksmanship to cheese because of CA.

    EDIT:
    Anyway this conversation is getting nowhere and is off-topic to boot, if anyone feels like discussing something about this matter feel free to PM me.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-06-18 at 11:28 AM.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Dreamer, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Frenzy, mini Llama.

  9. #49
    On topic

    Simple truth - lowest dps means that spec wont be played. Its not like wow is super complicated game. Getting used to new rotation, with all the addons help, takes "skilled players" around 2-3 hours tops.

    If there is something that pushes MM away from being played is the fact that the dps it does is too low.

    According to Simcraft
    MM - 204k
    SV - 207k
    BM - 218k

    Why is SV more popular then BM? Because pet uptime (due to crappy pet moving and other stuff) and some fight mechanics dont allow BM to aoe well so its actually lower in DPS than SV.

    When blizzard put the BS with no teleport CD a lot of player switched to BM cause the above problem was fixed.

    People always choose best dps spec. Even if its under 5% difference.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    While MM isn't really anymore clunky than it's been in the past, it's still a large determining factor in today's raiding scene of endless boss abilities and mechanics. The less you have to pay attention to your rotation, the better your survivability and raid awareness. I can play Survival blindfolded, and almost can play BM the same. MM requires a lot of micro-management, which not only results in lower DPS, it would result in lower survivability, which is a big deal.

    Then there's the whole "Aimed Shot does shit damage and is completely non-viable as a focus-dump" issue, which wasn't a problem in Cataclysm.
    I mean, the buffs to arcane and the neglect of aimed shot in the latest hotfixes are definitely keeping marks down, but the spec was still the lowest DPS before those changes. The marksman shots just do less damage than the shots in the other specs.

    A flat 15% buff to AI could probably fix marks for competitive raiding. Why Blizz doesn't just do that, I don't know. It's not like AI is critting for half of people's health in pvp.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    It's not like AI is critting for half of people's health in pvp.
    Aimed Shot by itself isn't, no. But don't forget that you can fire off an instant Aimed Shot after a cast followed by another high damage instant. Powershot->instant Aimed->global cooldown->Chimera Shot just to throw a random example out there. That whole combo does hurt.

    If anything and to prevent future hotfixes and changes, I'd say Steady Shot should be buffed instead. Maybe piercing shots as mentioned before.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Dreamer, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Frenzy, mini Llama.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Aimed Shot by itself isn't, no. But don't forget that you can fire off an instant Aimed Shot after a cast followed by another high damage instant. Powershot->instant Aimed->global cooldown->Chimera Shot just to throw a random example out there. That whole combo does hurt.

    If anything and to prevent future hotfixes and changes, I'd say Steady Shot should be buffed instead. Maybe piercing shots as mentioned before.
    Powershot > instant aimed > chimera shot requires a lot of setup. On average you need to get off 6 steady shots before your instant aimed even procs. That's not easy to get off in arena, especially when you can spec BM and get that burst whenever you want with the press of a button.

    I guess a big steady shot buff could fix marks, but then you'd still use arcane as a focus dump and you're not really playing MM anymore. I'd rather see an aimed buff so that AI spam is the way to go.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    Powershot > instant aimed > chimera shot requires a lot of setup. On average you need to get off 6 steady shots before your instant aimed even procs. That's not easy to get off in arena, especially when you can spec BM and get that burst whenever you want with the press of a button.

    I guess a big steady shot buff could fix marks, but then you'd still use arcane as a focus dump and you're not really playing MM anymore. I'd rather see an aimed buff so that AI spam is the way to go.
    I wouldn't say that requires much of a setup at all, and don't forget you are putting quite a bit of pressure onto your opponents while you are busy setting it up. All of sudden when they don't expect it you are able to unleash this burst. I personally foresee problems much like how I called Powershot needing a nerf when they made it always hit it's primary target. It's too much and nearly impossible to stop.

    While I would like to see Marksmanship spam Aimed Shots as well, I don't think the current Arcane dump rotation is ''wrong''. I never fully understood why people are going to haywire over it.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Dreamer, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Frenzy, mini Llama.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    I wouldn't say that requires much of a setup at all, and don't forget you are putting quite a bit of pressure onto your opponents while you are busy setting it up. All of sudden when they don't expect it you are able to unleash this burst. I personally foresee problems much like how I called Powershot needing a nerf when they made it always hit it's primary target. It's too much and nearly impossible to stop.

    While I would like to see Marksmanship spam Aimed Shots as well, I don't think the current Arcane dump rotation is ''wrong''. I never fully understood why people are going to haywire over it.
    It's not wrong, it's just boring to me. I liked marks in 4.2 when you could get away with using arcane, but if you used aimed and used it well you could pull out an extra 1k DPS that other people couldn't.

  15. #55
    Oh don't worry, that was more a general thing I'm seeing and not specifically aimed at you.

    I really do want to see Marksmanship hardcast Aimed Shots. Marksmanship always felt like that spec that's supposed to crit often, very hard, but hardly fire off any shots. Unfortunately I don't think that will work out well in PvP.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Dreamer, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Frenzy, mini Llama.

  16. #56
    Maybe you got rank 1 on heroic twins as MM because you have 547 ilvl playing a spec no one plays? Wow huge mystery there. /clap

    No MM is not harder to play than any of the other specs. Hunters are not hard to play period. MM is the least played spec because it does less damage, that's all. Saying that playing MM affects your survive ability is disingenuous as well.. how does that have anything to do with the spec? You can still do your entire rotation on the move... that's a player problem, not a spec problem.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Schma View Post
    Maybe you got rank 1 on heroic twins as MM because you have 547 ilvl playing a spec no one plays? Wow huge mystery there. /clap

    No MM is not harder to play than any of the other specs. Hunters are not hard to play period. MM is the least played spec because it does less damage, that's all. Saying that playing MM affects your survive ability is disingenuous as well.. how does that have anything to do with the spec? You can still do your entire rotation on the move... that's a player problem, not a spec problem.
    I balk every time I see this, because the other half of the people say that people playing hunters do a horrible job with it. If they're so easy, how can anyone be bad at it? Any hunter can get a "close enough" rotation and get ~100k dps going, but a hunter who really knows what to do (delay this, use this first, line these up, etc) will come close if not fully double that, or more.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Oh don't worry, that was more a general thing I'm seeing and not specifically aimed at you.

    I really do want to see Marksmanship hardcast Aimed Shots. Marksmanship always felt like that spec that's supposed to crit often, very hard, but hardly fire off any shots. Unfortunately I don't think that will work out well in PvP.
    It would seem that if Blizzard can make Destro work (although I don't know its PvP viability) with the hard-hitting Chaos Bolt, then Marksmanship should not be that difficult either. I suppose the problem is that Marks is built around two hard-hitting spells instead of one. It just feels like there is a lot of design space they aren't exploring here. As much as I'd like Aimed as the full-time focus dump, maybe you gate it like Chaos Bolt in a way. One option: You could remove Careful Aim as is, turn it into a buff that you get from your Master Marksman stacks, and when the new Careful Aim goes off for say, a 20 second duration, then and only then can you cast Aimed Shot, but it either hits like a truck or always crits. That might alleviate the PvP problem of having both Chimera and Aimed all the time (although with a possible burst issue, but at least not a right-off-the-bat burst issue), while giving a PvE player some skill choices in using that new Careful Aim time to maximal effect.

  19. #59
    I hated MM since the start of cata, I don't like that hard casting crap making me feel like a caster not a hunter. Used MM twice in cata when it was top dps and hated it. I'm glad BM and surv are the top specs now. MM isn't hard, just personally not my playstyle.
    Last edited by Goretex; 2013-06-19 at 08:03 AM.

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