Spanish Partition, Federalism and Independence

[Deleted]

A seperate Catalonian state would stuggle to exist much like Scotland.

Bull. Shit.

In what fantasy land is this?

No one except Telegraph commentators actually believe that Scotland will struggle; it's a point that's been put to rest by even Tories. Both Cameron and Osbourne both state that Scotland could survive on it's own perfectly fine, it's just that they think Scotland is better off within the UK, which is an opinion.

Would they meet the criteria to join the EU? No. If they did...it would just get vetoed.

No they wouldn't. The Spanish foreign minister said that Spain wouldn't veto Scotland's EU membership as long as the UK agreed to the split, which they have, as per terms of the Edinburgh agreement

And how about their economy? Congratulations on making yourself a 3rd world country, enjoy trading goats.

You're completely in-correct. Both Scotland and Catalonia are incredibly rich regions of the country they're part of. Scotland contributes the third most to the UK, just behind London and the South-East. Catalonia is the manufacturing powerhouse of Spain. So, to re-iterate.

Wrong on all three accounts. Try again.

[Nakura Chambers]

Cleansed? How so? Most European countries are the result of the mixing of pre-existing populations with others through migration or conquest. This is why it's silly. Ethnicities and cultures are replaced or evolve through the combination of different peoples.

This is why the separation of Spain into different political entities is silly. You didn't just close up the borders at one point and started only "making" a Valencian (or, Basque, Galician, Castillian or w/e they're called) population.

You're just putting a different label onto something.

By that logical northern Portugal should seek it's independece because at one point we were a county of Castille.

The formerly Spanish regions of Portugal have integrated into Portugal. Have the Basque fully integrated into Spain?

I live in Spain, I do not consider myself Spaniard. I'm Basque.

Apparently not...

[Rukentuts]

There's a difference between recognizing/celebrating the culture of your ancestors and actively living your life and declaring yourself as that culture. I may be of Scottish ancestry, but I'm not "Scottish American," I'm just an American. I may listen to Scottish music and attend Scottish festivals from time to time, but I don't view myself as a Scot. I view myself as an American.

Well, the Somalis and Hmong here and very culturalistic, and while anecdotal it proves it does happen.

[Grimbold21]

The formerly Spanish regions of Portugal have integrated into Portugal. Have the Basque fully integrated into Spain?

Apparently not...

What does that mean? Portugal was originally Castillian territory. We happen to carve out a kingdom for "ourselves" and through conquest and mixing of different ethnicities a Portuguese country and culture grew.

Isn't that what happened with Spain? Political marriages and conquest made Spain.

Woah, really? You're gonna support your argument on the feelings of one person?

They havent fully integrated yet, whatever that means, because of stubborn nationalist movements from the 19 / 20th century that insist on this notion of separation based on the idea that they hold a different culture, which most likely they have nothing to do with, but since it belonged to their ancestors from centuries ago, they figured it'd be a good idea to create such radical ideas.

Now, if you tell me, that 99,9% of the population, after a referendum, believes and wants a Basque identity, i'll shut up.

[Nakura Chambers]

What does that mean? Portugal was originally Castillian territory. We happen to carve out a kingdom for "ourselves" and through conquest and mixing of different ethnicities a Portuguese country and culture grew.

Isn't that what happened with Spain? Political marriages and conquest made Spain.

Woah, really? You're gonna support your argument on the feelings of one person?

They havent fully integrated yet, whatever that means, because of stubborn nationalist movements from the 19 / 20th century that insist on this notion of separation based on the idea that they hold a different culture, which most likely they have nothing to do with, but since it belonged to their ancestors from centuries ago, they figured it'd be a good idea to create such radical ideas.

Now, if you tell me, that 99,9% of the population, after a referendum, believes and wants a Basque identity, i'll shut up.

Obviously it is almost impossible to get 99.9% of any population to agree to something. If you held a referendum in the United States on whether or not the United States should become a British colony, a lot of left-wingers would probably vote "yes."

A significant portion of the Basque population, if not a majority, support independence. And most of those that oppose independence, still support autonomy.

How many people of Bardili descent in Portugal consider themselves to be Bardili? And how many consider themselves to be Portuguese? Is there a significant movement in Portugal to restore Bardili culture, language and/or government?

[Deleted]

The USA has plenty of ethnic groups, I don't see why this is a huge reason for splitting, especially in a global economy where immigration is going like mad anyway.

The major difference is that these ethnic groups are actually nations (i.e. own culture, history, language) living in well defined territories that date back to the Reconquista and not the result of a hotchpotch of immigrants living together. The debate of the "historical nationalities" (the term used in the current Spanish constitution) goes back to the 30s, before the Spanish Civil War.

Getting the agreement of the "parent country" is a necessary requirement for holding a referendum about independence, without it, the referendum lacks meaning.

Not exactly. The national government argues that it's unconstitutional but some factions are open to negotiate the terms and a possible reform. And the latest polls give a clear victory to the pro-independence parties.

And how about their economy? Congratulations on making yourself a 3rd world country, enjoy trading goats.

Except for the fact that Catalonia is a net contributor to the national budget, and one of the richest areas of Spain. And that's one of the biggest points of contention at the moment. They are eating some nasty slashes to their budget, even though they (and most of the northern half of Spain) have significantly lower unemployment numbers and are far more productive than the southern half.

[Rukentuts]

The major difference is that these ethnic groups are actually nations (i.e. own culture, history, language) living in well defined territories that date back to the Reconquista and not the result of a hotchpotch of immigrants living together. The debate of the "historical nationalities" (the term used in the current Spanish constitution) goes back to the 30s, before the Spanish Civil War.

*points to Texas, Hawaii, etc.*

[Nakura Chambers]

*points to Texas, Hawaii, etc.*

Both of which are states in a vast federation and each are more than welcome to have their own government, language, culture and history.

[Tuor]

What does that mean? Portugal was originally Castillian territory.

How about going back to school and learn history??

Portucale was a county inside the Kingdom of Leon since year 860 uuntill it finally gainned its independence in 1143 as Kingdom of portugal.

Portugal its an older country then Spain, or even Castilla.

[Linkedblade]

May they do what they see fit and have the least bit damage done to their cultures, economies, and lives.

[Grimbold21]

Obviously it is almost impossible to get 99.9% of any population to agree to something. If you held a referendum in the United States on whether or not the United States should become a British colony, a lot of left-wingers would probably vote "yes."

A significant portion of the Basque population, if not a majority, support independence. And most of those that oppose independence, still support autonomy.

How many people of Bardili descent in Portugal consider themselves to be Bardili? And how many consider themselves to be Portuguese? Is there a significant movement in Portugal to restore Bardili culture, language and/or government?

You know what, i actually had to google Bardili cause i'd never heard of it before. But to expand on it, if there's anything further than this.

Are you refering to a pre roman tribe, which was a branch of the Turduli? A tribe that was submitted by different peoples that eventually died out through mixing with it's different neighbours and eventual conquerors?

Oh please, most of the population can't even tell the difference between an autonomous government and full fledge independence. All they're doing is switching central rule for local governance.

This sounds awfully familiar to "our" local movement (FLA - Azorean Liberation Front) which stands for the independence of the Azorean archipelago from mainland Portugal, which i find totally retarded, because, despite 500 years of history, there wasn't anyone here prior to a majority of portuguese settlers.

[Deleted]

*points to Texas, Hawaii, etc.*

Considering demographics, the situation can hardly be extrapolated.

[Tierbook]

well... Grim its similar to America i guess after all i doubt that the majority of rebel soldiers where indians

[Grimbold21]

How about going back to school and learn history??

Portucale was a county inside the Kingdom of Leon since year 860 uuntill it finally gainned its independence in 1143 as Kingdom of portugal.

Portugal its an older country then Spain, or even Castilla.

There were 2 different counties. One of Leon and one of Castille. The one of Castille was given to Henry of Burgundy was a reward, the same Henry that happens to be the father of Afonso Henriques, the first king of Portugal.

[Tuor]

There were 2 different counties. One of Leon and one of Castille. The one of Castille was given to Henry of Burgundy was a reward, the same Henry that happens to be the father of Afonso Henriques, the first king of Portugal.

That is the romantic and simplistic vertion they tell you when you on 2nd grade...

The fact is that the county of Portucale already existed, and before Conde D. Henrique, other counts of Portucale had already existed. The first reference to such County was from year 860.

And another point, Leon was the Kingdom, not a county.

[Vuljatar]

The whole idea of a democratic government is allowing the people to create the kind of country they want.

If that means a unified Spain, then that's good.

If that means splitting it up, that's good too.

It's their choice. I don't know enough about the situation so pick a "best" option, and I wouldn't presume to tell them what's right for their country anyway.

[FTAzai]

Obviously it is almost impossible to get 99.9% of any population to agree to something. If you held a referendum in the United States on whether or not the United States should become a British colony, a lot of left-wingers would probably vote "yes."

What? Where the hell did you get an idea like that?

[Grimbold21]

That is the romantic and simplistic vertion they tell you when you on 2nd grade...

The fact is that the county of Portucale already existed, and before Conde D. Henrique, other counts of Portucale had already existed. The first reference to such County was from year 860.

And another point, Leon was the Kingdom, not a county.

No, the fact is that 2 counties existed: County of Portucale and Condado Portucalense.

You're misreading my english. Im not denying the previous existance of Portucale. Im saying there were 2 of them. And again, by misreading, you thought i meant Leon as a county, which i didn't, i meant that one county belonged to Leon at one point and the other to Castille.

In order to fully clear this one, we'd need to talk about dinastic intrigue in detail and other conflicts, which is really beyond the point.

My point stands.

[Nakura Chambers]

What? Where the hell did you get an idea like that?

Rejoining Britain would be a liberal's wet dream. They could get rid of the Bill of Rights, have nationalist healthcare, have open borders, guns would be banned, they'd have a weak foreign policy, etc.

[Tackhisis]

The current system where puppet states like Catalonia will technically have the same sovereignty rights as the real ones like USA and China is wrong. So my position is the unitary Spain without recognizing autonomies, with Castilian Spanish as the only language of government institutions and education: basically a French model.