So this is were Blizzard wanted us in pve?

[Deleted]

Nope. Ever thought I might be that good?

Considering, none of our failures or wipes on any content since the guild has formed has ever been related to anything but mechanics, we're always well, WELL ahead of any enrage timers or DPS mechanics. I don't really pay attention to anyone's performance but my own, because I can trust my fellow raiders to handle their shit.

even u would play ur dk near theoretical max limit, ur fellow mages, wlocks and rogues should outdps you by being average to their class.
That's mostly the reason I'm about to reroll or switching blood.

---------- Post added 2013-06-15 at 02:01 PM ----------

Nope. Ever thought I might be that good?

Considering, none of our failures or wipes on any content since the guild has formed has ever been related to anything but mechanics, we're always well, WELL ahead of any enrage timers or DPS mechanics. I don't really pay attention to anyone's performance but my own, because I can trust my fellow raiders to handle their shit.

even u would play ur dk near theoretical max limit, ur fellow mages, wlocks and rogues should outdps you by being average to their class.
That's mostly the point I'm driven to reroll or switching blood.

---------- Post added 2013-06-15 at 02:07 PM ----------

Nope. Ever thought I might be that good?

Considering, none of our failures or wipes on any content since the guild has formed has ever been related to anything but mechanics, we're always well, WELL ahead of any enrage timers or DPS mechanics. I don't really pay attention to anyone's performance but my own, because I can trust my fellow raiders to handle their shit.

And, after bit searching, I can honestly say that you are have no idea what you are talking about.

[Murdos]

... Yeah, I'm going to go by your language and your inability to correctly use basic forum code, and totally assume you're the greatest thing that's ever happened to DKs since Dual Spec.

I'm sure you've contributed so much more then I have, with your grand total of 7, poorly-worded posts full of netspeak.

Seriously, all you've got is 'LAWL MAGES AND WARLOCKS ARE HIGHER ON WOL' as your standby. I can't believe you don't grasp how silly you sound.

Come back when you've managed to hit a point, and not just try to act smug about things you clearly don't understand; because I really don't care about the opinion of someone so bad at DK, they have to reroll blood to stay viable. Because that means you REALLY bad.

[Nyanmaru]

Let's not continue pulling each others hair in here, or it gets the hose again...

[Deleted]

If you want to play pve than play Diablo... WoW should be focused more on pvp...

[Murdos]

If you want to play pve than play Diablo... WoW should be focused more on pvp...

Which is why Arena and Rated BGs was the primary bullet point on the back of the Vanilla box, right?

Oh. Wait.

Honestly, If you want to PVP; I'd say go play League of Legends. It's at least wholly setup for that at baseline.

[devilminion]

lol blood. if u think blood is good right now u havent played witha pally or monk tank yet. iam rerolling monk come next patch. DKs got nothing exciting this expansion like every other class. been average since cata. time t play some Op classes XD.

[Ruck]

If you want to play pve than play Diablo... WoW should be focused more on pvp...

oh an explanation of this would be quite entertaining.

[Maxweii]

If X is % better then Y, Y is bad. I hate that concept with the searing, burning unfathomable energy of a collapsing supergiant.

Sadly that's how dk's have been recently, Blizz even pointed it out. If all but a few people play one spec, then the other spec suffers from low parses and well, few people messing with it. Fester might never have come around if a buncha people didn't play Unholy and find the realization of what those trinks can do for us

[Darkfriend]

I don't subscribe to theoretical DPS.

Because theoretically that means you only raid 25s, cover basic buffs, then stack nothing but Warlocks and Assassination Rogues to cast tricks on said warlocks.

Theoretically that's the absolute best possible DPS. Pragmatically that's fucking retarded.

Even theoretical DPS needs to consider the gearing issue, or its a piss poor theory. That's part of the reason people bring classes that are "weaker" DPS. Gear, survivability, buffs, etc.

[Saybel]

I mostly disliked the insinuation my friends were 'bad' because I happen to be able to play my class well, to be honest. I have a serious loathing for the absolute binary divide in thinking that dominates this and other forums.

If X is % better then Y, Y is bad. I hate that concept with the searing, burning unfathomable energy of a collapsing supergiant.

Your assumption was the insinuation that I was calling them bad, I prefer to use the word "average". Because that's the correct word, for example, Unholy atm is what I would consider "average" Not bad, maybe weak, but average.

I'm fine with not having a damage buff though, as long as there's something around that would make the class highly desirable, I'm a desirable player in the eyes of my peers because I perform well but I know I'd struggle to be even desirable if I climbed higher up the ladder even though my performance would still be strong. If I was this "good" at warrior, it would be better since I'd actually bring something useful other than raw (and average) damage.

[Crucifix]

Personally I feel like Frost has fallen out of favor, if you're in a high end guild the chances are you're hunting for a Feather and going Unholy if you want to do comparable DPS to other people in your raid. I don't necessarily enjoy the insurgence of RPPM trinkets in general so naturally a spec that is now entirely built around is concerning for future evolution of the spec.

Frost does under perform in comparison to Unholy on most fights, naturally WoL is skewed because the best DKs are actually Unholy so naturally that means there are less good players still messing around with Frost. I still do, I play DW and 2h mainly because I don't have a Feather, which again, is concerning when your class is quite literally revolving around a piece of gear. I guess it's not different to other tiers where weapons or trinkets or 2/4 peices weight so heavily on a class' performance I just don't know what would replace Feather other then another Feather for 5.4.

I think the combination of a lot of things are affecting DK's. Yes Festerblight is really strong on a lot of fights and godly RNG with right timing can lead to some amazing numbers, I will however say, other classes are generally in a better place overall. I raid with a Ret Paladin, a Feral druid and a Rogue and naturally on most fights they can just do larger numbers then myself as frost, again however this could change with a Feather. So perhaps DKS are okay, if you're unholy, if you have a feather, if you play DW you can't play on any single target fight and expect to do any sort of relevant DPS and 2h frost has similar issues, however this might change with a Feather. DKs have some interesting unique utility but it's not utility that is necessarily useful on a lot of fights, other then battle rez and arguably AMZ you don't really use much raid cool downs so to speak which is fine if you have a raid comp that can compensate for that. I'm not including the really useful Gorefiends on Lei Shen because I honestly don't use Gorefiends on any fight other then Lei Shen and Twins.

Do DKs need to be buffed? I don't know. Will scaling issues arise? do we get as much out of secondary stats as other classes? I don't know. I feel like next tier will be a better indicator of how DK's are overall. DK's still have the capability of doing amazing numbers and what not it just requires the right gear and spec, is that good for game design, I'm not sure but I've certainly noticed other classes start to perform better then myself which barely any change from me perhaps that is entirely a gear issue.

I don't think the sky is falling but it's hard to tell now at the end of a tier.

[Deleted]

noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic#BiS, sadly, we'r far from average, maybe on cleaving situations we are nearly average but, only single target matters mostly and damaging correct targets, not padding meters.

[Skullbound]

noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic#BiS, sadly, we'r far from average, maybe on cleaving situations we are nearly average but, only single target matters mostly and damaging correct targets, not padding meters.

Don't follow Noxxic.

[lokispec23]

I have used Noxxic, is there a better place to use? I was thinking of this last night while I was playing but I could not find anything out on google.

Thanks

Loki

[Agent Mercury]

lol blood. if u think blood is good right now u havent played witha pally or monk tank yet. iam rerolling monk come next patch. DKs got nothing exciting this expansion like every other class. been average since cata. time t play some Op classes XD.

You must reroll a lot if you go with the FOTM classes.

[Skarssen]

I have used Noxxic, is there a better place to use? I was thinking of this last night while I was playing but I could not find anything out on google.

Thanks

Loki

Those are simulations, and are not even meant as a tool for interclass comparisons. Instead use World of Logs and raidbots. Raidbots has many different setting and filters that you can use, and all of them are useful in some ways. There isn't really a flawless method to display and compare spec performance, but imo the most informative is the heroic mode, all parses, 90th percentile, comparison. If you look at that you will see that frost is dead last on 8 of 12 heroic fights. Sampling bias exists, but frost hasn't been abandoned in PVE the way MM and sub have been; plenty of good players are still playing frost. It really does just suck that badly.

[lokispec23]

Those are simulations, and are not even meant as a tool for interclass comparisons. Instead use World of Logs and raidbots. Raidbots has many different setting and filters that you can use, and all of them are useful in some ways. There isn't really a flawless method to display and compare spec performance, but imo the most informative is the heroic mode, all parses, 90th percentile, comparison. If you look at that you will see that frost is dead last on 8 of 12 heroic fights. Sampling bias exists, but frost hasn't been abandoned in PVE the way MM and sub have been; plenty of good players are still playing frost. It really does just suck that badly.

ok cool thanks for that I had no idea I was looking for gemming and stuff like that for blood and unholy DPS I try and use askmrrobot for like what I am supposed to do for reforges and jsuch and gemming but for like talanet choices and rotations I used noxxic. that site you gave to me is pretty awsome thou for data thank you I will have to dig further into it.

Loki

[Deleted]

noxxic rankings are based on simulationcraft with different gears, and shared to parses with theoretical max and realistic max. and sadly, the rankings they give are pretty correct.

" Instead use World of Logs and raidbots" You kidding right? World of logs are full of meterpadders

[Skarssen]

noxxic rankings are based on simulationcraft with different gears, and shared to parses with theoretical max and realistic max. and sadly, the rankings they give are pretty correct.

" Instead use World of Logs and raidbots" You kidding right? World of logs are full of meterpadders

That's why you ignore Top 100, and even the 95th percentile. Also, "meter padding" is only relevant when you are doing damage to mobs that don't need to die (i.e. Tortos). But Ill indulge you; if you don't think actual raid parses are sufficient proof of frosts inferiority, what would you suggest as an alternative?

[broodax]

Noxxic rankings are based on:

a) sims
b) non-realistic fight situations attempted to be represented in sims
c) varying degrees of accuracy in sims
d) varying degrees of skill used to create action priority lists in sims

So they're not perfect. They're not useless, they can provide a starting point for asking questions. But, you should never look at their numbers and attempt to draw any conclusions from them directly.

Raidbots of course has padding. Ignore those fights. Look at Iron Qon, Twins, Jin, Ji-Kun, Durumu, Lei Shen, etc. All fights where there is little or no padding, and you'll get very good data.