Alright bring back our DPS for PvE

[Mollox]

Hmmm I guess I might've over-reacted to the whole thing, but fact is he did specifically went and found quite an old log and compared it with one of his latest logs showing how much "better" his DPS is than mine, And then making claims on how I allowed my diseases to fall off, how I didn't use my CD's correctly and that my DT uptime wasn't on par with his, heck maybe my DT uptime was lower because I had more Soul Reapers on the boss than you (Which is something that takes priority over timmy iirc) I'm quite sure taking that as an insult is something any rational person would do...

And hey I did admit I was wrong for not soaking more RP from AMS on that specific instance.
Although I don't like to just soak whenever I can AMS, you know those just incases? I like having a cooldown handy for those as well ^^
I do generally soak with AMS whenever I feel comfortable with it.


Oh and thanks for making a smurf just to respond to this thread (Pretty sure you're Tree as well)

[Soisoisoi]

Hmmm I guess I might've over-reacted to the whole thing, but fact is he did specifically went and found quite an old log and compared it with one of his latest logs showing how much "better" his DPS is than mine, And then making claims on how I allowed my diseases to fall off, how I didn't use my CD's correctly and that my DT uptime wasn't on par with his, heck maybe my DT uptime was lower because I had more Soul Reapers on the boss than you (Which is something that takes priority over timmy iirc) I'm quite sure taking that as an insult is something any rational person would do...

And hey I did admit I was wrong for not soaking more RP from AMS on that specific instance.
Although I don't like to just soak whenever I can AMS, you know those just incases? I like having a cooldown handy for those as well ^^
I do generally soak with AMS whenever I feel comfortable with it.

As Frode mentioned (thanks btw), I didn't mean to offend you or call you out in any way - I was simply saying that it's extremely silly to compare logs when neither side has no idea about the other's raid. Take my own raids as an example: Council - I'm on interrupt duty. Tortos - I tend to have to go after the Whirl Turtles. Iron Qon - I have to stand in front and move to one of the groups for Unleashed Flame. The rest are pretty normal for me, besides Ji-Kun where I do get to go down for a feather early on.

The reason I looked at that log from yourself is because it was the latest Durumu (closest to Patchwerk) kill I could find; every other fight is just annoying to look at. :/

Oh and thanks for making a smurf just to respond to this thread (Pretty sure you're Tree as well)

Smurf? /confused

If you mean Frode is me, then you can ask a mod to confirm it's not (assume they can do that somehow since they can stop you using multiple accounts to reply in a prize thread).

[Mollox]

Apologies for taking it the wrong way then, I feel a bit like an arse...

[Soisoisoi]

Apologies for taking it the wrong way then, I feel a bit like an arse...

Don't worry about it, everyone does silly things.

[Frode]

Not a smurf Just basically made an account today and this was one of the first posts i was reading through! Now let's all be happy DK friends and laugh at all the mad warlocks around the world (muhahahaha)!

[Deleted]

That rage post was probably one of the best I've read today lmao

[Darkfriend]

UH did lose 5% strength. They are still in 3rd spot for melee at higher gear levels.

[Deleted]

go check to simcraft
this is where you think DK must be ? are kidding me ?

on wow progress , the first dk is ranked 3516th on sim dps ranking
do you still think dk is fine ?
do you think do is taken on raid because of his utility ? battle rez ?
this is total bullshit , dk are good for nothing on all the fight of this game , because the communitu dont like them since their realease , and beacause ghostroller is on command , this guys dont even play his own game

the one who says that dk are good dont play the classe or are not playing on HL guilds

[Darkfriend]

go check to simcraft
this is where you think DK must be ? are kidding me ?

on wow progress , the first dk is ranked 3516th on sim dps ranking
do you still think dk is fine ?
do you think do is taken on raid because of his utility ? battle rez ?
this is total bullshit , dk are good for nothing on all the fight of this game , because the communitu dont like them since their realease , and beacause ghostroller is on command , this guys dont even play his own game

the one who says that dk are good dont play the classe or are not playing on HL guilds

Sigh. Every class, literally every class QQ's about their class. Yes, Heroic guilds take DKs. They have great personal CDs against magic, their level 90 talents are situationally very useful, and they have other tricks they can pull off like gripping+stunning twisted fate on H:Council. They also do more melee DPS than most melee classes.

Warriors, on the other hand have better raid utility but much less personal survivability and somewhat fewer "tricks". They also do slightly lower overall damage than DKs.

Both bring AP/Stam which isn't too useful, as most raid groups will have someone else who can bring those buffs. (Honestly who doesn't have at least 1 lock or priest.) DKs have attack speed, and at least one of my raid groups wouldn't have that if I didn't bring my DK.

Another thing to consider Maximel, is that the Wow progress DPS ranking DOES NOT consider festerblight playstyle. Those gauges are wildly inaccurate for realistic purposes, they are just a tool for recruiters etc to get a quick look at a very general idea of what a person's DPS should look like with their gear. It's a VERY broad metric, nothing more.

Not to mention that unless you are in a top 10 WORLD guild, most of your raiders will not be playing anywhere NEAR peak skill. Meaning personal skill is far and above more important than theoretical damage. In essence, unless it actually has an impact on your raid where everyone is already playing at 100% skill, people blame balance over skill because it means they don't have to admit they aren't as good as they could be.

[Bsod]

deactivate your dps meter

[Deleted]

Sigh. Every class, literally every class QQ's about their class. Yes, Heroic guilds take DKs. They have great personal CDs against magic, their level 90 talents are situationally very useful, and they have other tricks they can pull off like gripping+stunning twisted fate on H:Council. They also do more melee DPS than most melee classes.

so beacause the class has some utility , we cant top the metters like warlocks and mage are doing ( BTW the warlock have a gate , a soulstone , and a healthstone , mage have ROF sheep , and both have a strong survavibility ? just beacause we can grip some mob on some situations ? so , to your POV let's take dk for this kind of fight and dont take them on other ?

Another thing to consider Maximel, is that the Wow progress DPS ranking DOES NOT consider festerblight playstyle. Those gauges are wildly inaccurate for realistic purposes, they are just a tool for recruiters etc to get a quick look at a very general idea of what a person's DPS should look like with their gear. It's a VERY broad metric, nothing more.

Festerblight isnt intended by blizzard , they already said they dont want it to be mandatory , so they nerf and nerf again pulling dk on the deep of the meters , steps by steps

Your explanation is just telling me that a raid full of mage / warlock and other spells casters , could be better the the token and gear material wasnt here

i'm also okay with the fact that warrior are as behind as DK are for this expantion , when warlock and mage are topping the metters on all fight we are just tools for some fight
how sad it is ?

[Darkfriend]

so beacause the class has some utility , we cant top the metters like warlocks and mage are doing ( BTW the warlock have a gate , a soulstone , and a healthstone , mage have ROF sheep , and both have a strong survavibility ? just beacause we can grip some mob on some situations ? so , to your POV let's take dk for this kind of fight and dont take them on other ?


Festerblight isnt intended by blizzard , they already said they dont want it to be mandatory , so they nerf and nerf again pulling dk on the deep of the meters , steps by steps

Your explanation is just telling me that a raid full of mage / warlock and other spells casters , could be better the the token and gear material wasnt here

i'm also okay with the fact that warrior are as behind as DK are for this expantion , when warlock and mage are topping the metters on all fight we are just tools for some fight
how sad it is ?

Yes, I agree locks are very strong now. They are getting nerfed HARD next tier with KJC and damage reduction.

As for mages, they don't have a passive damage reduction like other casters have IIRC, and RoF and sheep very rarely work in raid. Meaning they pretty much only bring crit buff/lust (if no shamen/hunter) and damage.

[Deleted]

how sad it is ?

I enjoy my dk everytime I raid with it, even if I'm not the top dps on my raid.

All of you should really disinstall your damage meter and try to enjoy the fucking game.

[Darkfriend]

I enjoy my dk everytime I raid with it, even if I'm not the top dps on my raid.

All of you should really disinstall your damage meter and try to enjoy the fucking game.

There is a lot of merit for that. It's why I'm going to raid on 2x warriors soon instead of warrior+DK. DK is great for some things, but I just love warriors.

[Slant]

Just my 2 cents...

I'm not sure if DKs are where they are supposed to be. I'm reading these threads and think I should agree with them. I mean, I look at my guild's raid parses and see myself at 90% of the world ranks, which is where I rate on average (with the odd ranking here and there). So I'm not too terrible. And I see our casters that are around me in the logs at 60-70% of their classes' rankings. So I think to myself that they should be higher than me, which would put me at the bottom of the barrel.

But when I look at those encounters, this tier is extremely easy to manipulate for dps numbers. Almost every fight is a happy dotfest for multidotters. In pure single target fights, I end up where I expect myself to be, which is our guild's top 5. On fights like Horridon, Council, Tortos, Primordius, Dark Animus etc., I'm nowhere near the top 10. Specifically at Tortos, I realised how easy it would be to just go unholy and dot the hell out of those bats while doing main dps on Tortos, and none the wiser... if you're using the kite strategy, you're having a TON of bats flying around. I've tried that with Frost and I've seen the difference between my DK mate doing single target and me just putting Frost Fever on them with one HB. It's insane.

What I'm saying is that this tier it's perhaps not DKs that are bad, but the encounters leaning towards multidotters so heavily. But 50% of what they do is pointless DPS pushing and the other 50% is them multidotting just to push their single target dps. Take Megaera, for example. Our casters multidot the hell out of that encounter, primarily to get their procs going for the one head where the dps actually counts. This doesn't mean that DKs suck, does it. It just means that we can't tell where we are simply by looking at rankings, because they are skewed by design. Blizzard has set up those classes in a way that they actually have to "cheat" the rankings, otherwise they aren't using their full potential. Unlike us, where multidotting results in nothing but a wasted GCD on the primary target.

The only thing that you could really look at is Simcrafting, but honestly... how much weight do you put into that, considering how little it has to do with actual encounters? AMS soaking is just one example. SimC is doing all it can to simulate given events, but every guild uses different strategies. It doesn't reflect reality perfectly, so I wouldn't base all QQing just on that.

Not saying this discussion is solved now, but that's just a few issues to mull over, while you guys keep bashing your heads in. Don't lose hope, player skill still does count some. And eventually, we'll get buffed again. It's a cycle, everyone is at the bottom eventually. And everyone gets pushed up again at some point. Deal with it, it's been like this for 8 years, it's not gonna change soon. It's part of the design strategy to mix things up and let everyone have their moment of glory once in a while.

[Raikh]

In terms of damage atleast uh dks are far from bottom line but its more difficult to bring the dps on the board than before not because uh mechanics changed but rather due to current trinkets which are also the reason uh can be really strong. While festerblight may be an optional playstyle rolling dots is essential to keep your dps stable and managing when to use fs instead of ss which is necessary to keep them up. Then on the other hand uh is pretty button mashing, getting distracted by encounter mechanics is hurting dps since your resources can overflow, this is especially important in burst scenarios where you have to manage a full bunch of resources.
Also uh scales relativly good with gear on low ilvls uh performs somewhat weaker mostly because of lacking good trinkets to get strong dots.
Stats are also a matter of personal playstyle, as long as you have rppm based dmg resources (t15 2set, meta gem, trinkets) haste is top secondary stat to go for until about 10k haste and only if you can soak at least a full bar of rp with ams like every 60-80 seconds crit gets slightly better than haste otherwise haste is still the stat to go for and the more you have the harder its to manage because not using that many resources properly is a grave dps loss. Not being able to do so for different reasons means to better drop haste for crit etc.

In terms of frost, last tier was great a good bunch of cleaving mechanics, good places for short cooldown burst and a very good setbonus. This tier is rather horrible due to encounter mechanics better supporting uh and multidot specs but the biggest problem is just the really bad stat scaling. Frost 2h scales bad with everything but weapondps and acceptable with haste. dw sclaes a bit better but it lacks to utilize the stats due to being gcd locked for haste, having many crit proccs devaluing crit as stat and mastery adding just raw dmg which does not work with any class mechanics like multidot classes getting extra ticks, proccs etc. which gives them breakpoints which gives the stat extra value. Such a thing completely misses on frost. Also the howling blast cleave nerf makes cleave for frost 2h just horrible.

Simcraft situation is basically to ignore to some degree because you can't play the simple priolist used in simcraft to gain max dps, like already said festerblight playstyle is not included, ams soaking is not included and can only be included for specific scenarios making uh semm weaker than it really is.

The uhm was unnecessary if i look at the enhancer buffs and current situation of ranged classes, uh might be a good meele but thats no reason to nerf it if like 20 caster speccs are above it. Getting the other meeles up to a similiar niveau might have been the better clue.
Caster dps also explode mostly because of trinkets like unerring vision of lei shen which is situational but almost game breaking for some classes and hard to calculate into a balancing system and what we see to some degree on raidbots and wol is pretty much that, massive proccs, speed kills without normalizing dmg from starting proc chains and cds, so basically cheesing dps meters due to outgearing and luck.

tl;dr: Uh is far from weak, frost is behind due to bad scaling and rppm trinkets are messing up dps.

[Khain]

I feel UH dk was good before but now it is just ok. UH more specifically festerblight has many mechanic disadvantages and encounters where you just can't keep your diseases rolling specially in 10man raids where you are required to do some tasks, so i wouldn’t count festerblight as a 100% reliable spec, as for frost, yes it does suffer from terrible gear scaling issues and it has one of the worst dps potentials of all classes. I was playing dw (my favorite spec) 2 weeks ago and putting basically top 5 ranks on most of the encounters as being almost at the bottom of the dps chart. Now let’s put our utility on the scale too, we have according to GC three very potent utilities, B.rez, mass grip and AMZ, now lets see in how many encounters those are really good in this tier....1 which is Lei Shen and it's now even a must, I’m not counting B.rez because it is not a unique ability so it's more like a buff. My guild mates joke all the time of how useless i became and i agree with them on Ra-den i was there basically being carried.

[Slant]

Now let’s put our utility on the scale too, we have according to GC three very potent utilities, B.rez, mass grip and AMZ, now lets see in how many encounters those are really good in this tier....1 which is Lei Shen and it's now even a must, I’m not counting B.rez because it is not a unique ability so it's more like a buff. My guild mates joke all the time of how useless i became and i agree with them on Ra-den i was there basically being carried.

Council = Grip spirits, Freezing spirits
Horridon = Freezing the dotting adds, Army to lessen the likelihood of dots on players
Tortos = Freeze in case your kiter has problems
Magaera = Mass Gripping the adds to safe zone

It's not like our utility is bad, it's just that many things are not used as much as they could be. And I don't want more utility, I dread the prospect of having to use AMZ as a raid CD more often than now.

[fangless]

Unholy isn't in a bad spot, but the way Throne was set up, Frost sort of got the short end of the stick. GC thought Unholy was doing too much damage, and that's why it got the 5% strength reduction on Unholy Might as well as the tricks. Obviously I'd rather they brought Frost up with Unholy instead of bringing all our options down the same level, but such is life.

Luckily we're desired on the two most important fights in the instance :P

[Khain]

Council = Grip spirits, Freezing spirits
Council = Grip spirits, Freezing spirits
Horridon = Freezing the dotting adds, Army to lessen the likelihood of dots on players
Tortos = Freeze in case your kiter has problems
Magaera = Mass Gripping the adds to safe zone

That's why i said "Really Good" on my post. Yes you can use the abilities like that but it's not game changing. And please freezing is horrible you have to plan way ahead in order to use it, you can't just go there and save someone with it.

I agree with your fear of having to use AMZ, mostly because it's in the same tier as purgatory, i can't count how many times it saved my ass.