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  1. #21
    The Insane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boshtastic View Post
    For me, the heroic five mans in cata patches firelands and hour of twilight were the perfect gear progression for casual players and a great lead up to a slightly more challenging LFR raid than by todays standards.

    The Zul'Gurub and A'man were a nice challenge at the time and I thought the hour of twilight five mans were an absolute master piece!

    I can't but my finger on it but they were just amazing, I know that blizz has said they don't want ppl endlessly running five mans to progress whether it be for rep or whatever.

    But when and who said they didn't like doing that? I certainly don't count myself amongst the unhappy bunch who inspired scenerios (can't stand them btw).

    I also know that blizzard say that Dungeons take alot of work, but you know when it comes down to dungeons vs scenerios, I would sooner have less dungeons thanks. Much higher quality experience.

    So I have been disappointed patch after patch with MoP from a dungeon perspective (I actually think the ToT content is great minus the mandatory scenerios).

    So I am hoping for some to appear just like the epic dropping, lore rich, challenging experiences we had back in cata.

    Anyone in agreement?
    There weren't any new HC's with 4.2, oh and people in general disliked how easy the HoT hc's were compared to the initial Cata hc's.

    Also "lore rich", ehh... That doens't have anything to do with the difficulty of the instance. And most of them were hardly "lore rich".

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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Bring back actual Heroics and also have normals. Heroics rewards low level epics close to LFR. Normals are what we have now, basic dungeons with gear thats pretty good, but nothing mind blowing.

    Blizzard, hire me? :P
    I've said for a very long time that normal 5 mans (or lfr) should be your avenue of choice for getting raid-ready from a gear perspective, and that 5 man heroics should be tuned a LOT higher, and be equivalent to normal raiding at least in terms of difficulty and drops.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    I actually have seen a wipe or 2 in an MoP heroic, if you have enough people that have no idea what to do on an encounter, it can happen... but it's admittedly extremely rare. And the 'oops, you're screwing this up' window is way way larger than it was even in Wrath heroics (which were also harder than MoP ones, appropriate gear levels taken into consideration)
    Yeah, I can see that in a complete pug. In any sort of guild group, especially if you are in vent/skype, it just doesn't happen. The margin of error is too generous. You could go in, having never seen the fight before, make mistakes, and still end up killing it because they are simple and easy. In cata you wiped on many bosses the first time you faced them. Hell, if you cc'd the wrong trash or didn't interrupt key trash spells you wiped on trash.

    It could be frustrating, but overcoming it felt like it was worthwhile. MoP heroics felt like a grind from the beginning, they were never fun for me.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    But they werent hard, I cant even remember the last time a HC was actually hard. BC HC's held true to their name.
    BC heroics weren't really any harder than Cata heroics, IF you made the proper group comp for BC heroics. If you just grabbed anything that said they wanted to come, thus meaning you had less than 2 cc, then yes, BC heroics were much harder than Cata heroics, because Cata heroics were made to be slightly easier with CC but not impossible without CC. BC heroics were designed to brutally punish you without CC. The thought being, "Who does 5 mans without a mage and rogue?"
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    I've said for a very long time that normal 5 mans (or lfr) should be your avenue of choice for getting raid-ready from a gear perspective, and that 5 man heroics should be tuned a LOT higher, and be equivalent to normal raiding at least in terms of difficulty and drops.
    Well, Mists 5 mans were the avenue of choice for getting raid ready for MSV :> At least, to everyone that did MSV normals at launch.

    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    BC heroics weren't really any harder than Cata heroics, IF you made the proper group comp for BC heroics. If you just grabbed anything that said they wanted to come, thus meaning you had less than 2 cc, then yes, BC heroics were much harder than Cata heroics, because Cata heroics were made to be slightly easier with CC but not impossible without CC. BC heroics were designed to brutally punish you without CC. The thought being, "Who does 5 mans without a mage and rogue?"
    At lot of the bosses were tough too though. Stuff like Mechanar? Sure you needed a Warlock for most trash, but even the bosses had a lot going on.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    Hard is relative. Cata's heroics are the hardest since I started in Wrath. They were capable of wiping you, and a few of them were able to consistently kill groups for a while. I don't think I ever wiped in a MoP heroic. They are silly easy, very much like Wrath's were.

    I never used CC in a MoP heroic.

    Now, I'm a tank of an active guild, so I didn't have to pug during the first few weeks of either Cata or MoP. I imagine that lfd groups had a harder time in Cata, and this is, in fact, the impetus Blizz gave us for making easier heroics.
    Yeah but you have to be realistic, some people are just so ball crushingly bad at the game that stuff like LFR was released. Heroics arent really heroic in the slightest, sure I might have wiped once in cata, but in general I could still burst everything down. WotLK was the last time I used CC and even then it was just to make life slightly easier, the HCs still werent remotely difficult for anyone with an average ability at gaming.

    Its the people who are new to games overall that will find them "hard", but the playerbase that in my opinion actually matters (the long term subscribers) are finding them way too easy.

  7. #27

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Yeah but you have to be realistic, some people are just so ball crushingly bad at the game that stuff like LFR was released. Heroics arent really heroic in the slightest, sure I might have wiped once in cata, but in general I could still burst everything down. WotLK was the last time I used CC and even then it was just to make life slightly easier, the HCs still werent remotely difficult for anyone with an average ability at gaming.

    Its the people who are new to games overall that will find them "hard", but the playerbase that in my opinion actually matters (the long term subscribers) are finding them way too easy.
    Here's my thing. Why isn't LFD released in a similar manner to LFR. one to two weeks behind Normal?

    Step 1: Make heroics harder
    Step 2: Disable LFD for 2 weeks after the Xpac releases
    Step 3: Open LFD
    Step 4: Add the stacking buff from LFR for groups that wipe. You get the 15% damage/healing/health buff for simply being in a LFD group with 3 or more pugs. Then, if you wipe, you get 5% extra.
    Step 5: Have the buff clear only when a new boss is pulled, so if the trash is too hard you get to use the buff on them as well, but when you pull a new boss you start over.

    This will A: allow those of us who want harder heroics to experience them. People who want to pug them will have to do it the old fashioned way, using trade.
    B: It will allow raiding guilds to gear up.
    C: It will allow people who would be using LFD to start using it with a slightly more geared playerbase after it opens, since many of the players for whom the Heroics are tuned for will have already gotten gear, but will still be running them for valor.
    D: If it's still too hard the stacking buff will alleviate this.

    We've got all the tech for these things in game already. I think this could be a real solution.

    Though, of course, I just brainstormed it.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargas View Post
    No one wants to spend 3 hours in a dungeon.
    thats just simply not true. spending a lengthy amount of time in a big dungeon was a pretty good past time for me and some of my friends back in the day. 3 hours might be a stretch but the heroic in BC were of the proper length and difficulty to satisfy our enjoyment levels. when Cata was first released the increased difficulty from the WOTLK heroics were a breath of fresh air and something we really enjoyed.

    to each their own, however to insinuate that "no one" wants to spend a lengthy period of time in a dungeon is nothing more than an opinion and one that does not speak for the entire community of the game. also, in b4 "rose tinted glasses" and all that nostalgia talk

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    do lfr/scenarios then. heaven forbid a game that's literally designed to consume your free time actually consume some time.
    Outside of a real raid no 1 thing should take anywhere near 3 hours to do. Now I am not saying that dungeons did or should, but there is just no way Blizzard is going to or should give us such a time sick dungeon. The 15 to 20 minute blitz they are no is the other extreme of that of course.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Boshtastic View Post
    For me, the heroic five mans in cata patches firelands and hour of twilight were the perfect gear progression for casual players and a great lead up to a slightly more challenging LFR raid than by todays standards.

    The Zul'Gurub and A'man were a nice challenge at the time and I thought the hour of twilight five mans were an absolute master piece!

    I can't but my finger on it but they were just amazing, I know that blizz has said they don't want ppl endlessly running five mans to progress whether it be for rep or whatever.

    But when and who said they didn't like doing that? I certainly don't count myself amongst the unhappy bunch who inspired scenerios (can't stand them btw).

    I also know that blizzard say that Dungeons take alot of work, but you know when it comes down to dungeons vs scenerios, I would sooner have less dungeons thanks. Much higher quality experience.

    So I have been disappointed patch after patch with MoP from a dungeon perspective (I actually think the ToT content is great minus the mandatory scenerios).

    So I am hoping for some to appear just like the epic dropping, lore rich, challenging experiences we had back in cata.

    Anyone in agreement?
    I am soooooooooooo confused.

    Your saying both the ZA/ZG heroics (which at launch with a PuG could be very problomatic) AND the HoT heroics where both perfect?

    How is that possible?

    1 was total utter faceroll (almost as bad as MoP heroics). The other was a completely nightmare if you where not in a guild group.

    If your asking do I want people to be able to unsub, sub the day a new patch goes live and faceroll heroics to get better gear than I got from raiding firelands for 7 months.

    Then no I never EVER want that to happen ever again.

    Do I wish we had some more 5 mans, I 100% agree.

    Do I want them to rain raid quality epics, I 100% do not.

    At least since 5.3 if you run challenge modes you get a good challenge and a chance of a 516 epic once a day.

    I kind of like the current model if your up for the challenge you can get a reward, if your just after Valor you can run heroics.

  12. #32
    I didn't even need to read OP, title was enough for a good hard laugh. Thanks OP!

    As a side note, if you liked the way heroics in cata were, why don't you do some challenge modes, buddy. Like all of them, every day, except instead of with friends, just go grab what ever level 90 shows up in trade.

    Have fun!


    EDIT:

    Decided to read OP, I figured I'd give him a shot.

    and oh wow LOL! So OP Is not only actually NOT looking for challenging content, he's looking for easy loot instead. (Honestly sounds like you got carried if your experience in those dungeons was great, you're probably also looking through some heavily rose tented goggles.)

    GG


    Yes I'm being condescending as hell. Don't take it personally.
    Last edited by Muezick; 2013-06-18 at 05:29 PM.
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  13. #33
    They need to tune heroics to actually be a challenge if they're going to hand out gear that is better than what most people had from the previous tier. If they do that all the QQ will happen again. Casuals loved the tuning of Heroics in Mists to Cata normal levels, the rest of us were disgusted by it. I enjoy running dungeons even if they hold no loot for me, beyond enchanting mats, and really hope they decide to do more of them for the next expansion. If Ghostcrawler can be relegated to an advisory role instead of being Lead it would help immensely. Ghostcrawler's response to criticism that he's rude and condescending in his communications with players? Most players don't even know who I am.... Yeah, that's the right attitude to take when you're in charge of a multi-billion dollar IP.

  14. #34
    Hope and beg all you want, but there's a reason they made heroics easy again in Mists.

    After TBC, heroics in Wrath were considerably easier. The vocal hardcore crowd complained, so they bumped the difficulty up again for Cataclysm. The result? The overwhelming majority of the playerbase realized they really didn't want to put that much effort into a five man dungeon. They really didn't want to think about precise crowd control plans. They really didn't want to wipe to trash if they messed up slightly.

    So the change was reverted.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    They need to tune heroics to actually be a challenge if they're going to hand out gear that is better than what most people had from the previous tier. If they do that all the QQ will happen again. Casuals loved the tuning of Heroics in Mists to Cata normal levels, the rest of us were disgusted by it. I enjoy running dungeons even if they hold no loot for me, beyond enchanting mats, and really hope they decide to do more of them for the next expansion. If Ghostcrawler can be relegated to an advisory role instead of being Lead it would help immensely. Ghostcrawler's response to criticism that he's rude and condescending in his communications with players? Most players don't even know who I am.... Yeah, that's the right attitude to take when you're in charge of a multi-billion dollar IP.
    I don't know, I think there's a certain amount of truth to the fact that most players don't know who he is. Those of us who use MMO-Champ and other an websites are actually in a pretty small minority. We follow what's going on because we care about the game and our performance. Most players never get outside of the game. They don't know when a patch is coming except by what people tell them. They don't know why things are harder or easier, or the paths to improve, except what their friends or trade tells them. Why else do we have so many people asking stupid stuff in trade about "what stat should I use?" Sure, some of them are trolls, and all of them are lazy, but what this means is that GC isn't communicating with them, because they aren't paying attention.

    What we get, then, is confirmation bias. We think things should be harder, and so does everyone we see here on mmo-champ (mostly, and I'm generalizing), so we think that everyone does. What we don't see, because we're on here and not playing with those players, is that it can be incredibly frustrating to find a decent group if you're not already in a decent group. It can be incredibly difficult to learn to tank in hard heroics if no LFD group has patience for you. Sure "Find a guild" we say, but, if a guild is active already they...HAVE a tank. (again, generalizing) there are difficulties to it that we simply don't think of or know about, because we're not in that situation. That's why they can't just make them harder again, they have to think of what those who aren't vocal are thinking.

  16. #36
    Thing is, Cata had the lowest 5 man participation of all the expansions. I remember Ghostcrawler saying that at some point with regards to the difficulty change between expansions.
    One cannot simply quit wow his way into Mordor.

  17. #37
    The problem is the older heroics were too reliant on a niche, where the lack of a single ability or even a specific class or spec could mean the difference between a controlled and enjoyable encounter or a mess.
    Crowd control is something very difficult to get right in an encounter, because not everyone can bring one capable of working in a specific circumstance.

    Also the experience of any difficulty of dungeons, especially heroic has to allow for the fact that some players might be reaching them for the first time.
    The experience of long-term players is often something people forget to take into account when saying content is too easy, when they simply cannot look at the experience from the view of someone seeing it for the first time.

    I think there is perhaps room for several tiers of heroic, with some being like an entry or learning experience with higher ones being something you need to choose specifically.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by dokilar View Post
    thats just simply not true. spending a lengthy amount of time in a big dungeon was a pretty good past time for me and some of my friends back in the day. 3 hours might be a stretch but the heroic in BC were of the proper length and difficulty to satisfy our enjoyment levels. when Cata was first released the increased difficulty from the WOTLK heroics were a breath of fresh air and something we really enjoyed.

    to each their own, however to insinuate that "no one" wants to spend a lengthy period of time in a dungeon is nothing more than an opinion and one that does not speak for the entire community of the game. also, in b4 "rose tinted glasses" and all that nostalgia talk

    Yet people like you and the OP insist, week in and week out, in doing the exact same thing and speak for the community on the exact same subjects. You make claims that "LFD/LFR/whatever is killing WoW and the only way to save the game is to Do What I Say". What is that if not speaking for the community, and with an opinion that is in the ignorable minority? You don't get to call people out for doing the same crap you're doing; sorry it doesn't work that way.
    Last edited by Vargas; 2013-06-18 at 05:50 PM.

  19. #39
    Oh no, don't bring Cata dungeons back please...

    While doing them with a guild group was satisfying, doing then in Dungeon Finder was a nightmare. There were some days where I didn't manage to do ONE sucessfull run. A lot of time wasted, and I didn't even get to enjoy the rest of game at all.

    Normal and Heroic Dungeons have to be what they are... quick and easy runs. If you want a challenge, do Challenge Modes. You don't even need to do the timed run, just do it in at your pace, for the fun and the challenge. Pug a random group in Orgrimar, and you have all the frustation you are looking for.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    I think there is perhaps room for several tiers of heroic, with some being like an entry or learning experience with higher ones being something you need to choose specifically.
    There is.

    Heroics and Challenge Modes

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