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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    They can nerf eternal flame blanketing to hell and we would still not be what you are describing. We would just be a class with weak raid heals who lack spread healing capabilities. We would struggle to keep the raid up during huge spikes of damage. And our single target healing is definitely not as strong as so many people make it out to be. Plus our utility is brought by every other paladin and other forms of it are brought by other classes.

    What you are asking for requires rework of the whole spec and more likely than not the other healing classes. Because seriously try to use strong direct heals on a target right now in raid and see how likely it is that the majority of that heal will actually be effective healing and not just snipped by smart splash heals of other classes.

    And the DP change was long overdue. So we can use it on cooldown without repercussion like almost every other healing class with their mana cooldowns.
    i disagree, i think our single target heals are pretty strong atm. do you raid 25 mans? i haven't really experienced the heal sniping you describe this tier (10 man heroics). sure it's there, but not to extent that it nullifies our single target heals. so i think your suggestion that it would require a rework of the class is a bit of an overstatement. It's not like EF blanketing is an intended playstyle for the spec, it's an unintended consequence of an overpowered ability, and not the only way to heal viably atm.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Ylera View Post
    i disagree, i think our single target heals are pretty strong atm. do you raid 25 mans? i haven't really experienced the heal sniping you describe this tier (10 man heroics). sure it's there, but not to extent that it nullifies our single target heals. so i think your suggestion that it would require a rework of the class is a bit of an overstatement. It's not like EF blanketing is an intended playstyle for the spec, it's an unintended consequence of an overpowered ability, and not the only way to heal viably atm.
    Our single target heals are not strong, both shamans and disc priests have far stronger single target heals. The only thing that makes us some kind of tank healer is because we have beacon of light. I honestly have no idea how we compare to monks and druids but I would not be surpised if they also had stronger single target heals than us.

    We are good for tank healing on fights where you use 2 or more tanks, we are garbage for tank healing when there is just one tank.

  3. #163
    High Overlord Zarry's Avatar
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    They should leave EF as it is.. The spell is great but if they want us to pick something else.. They should change the talents that are bad.. Not the only one ppl actualy use...

    For SH its simple make it so that if u get that talent your judgements give you a stack of Holy power along with the healing increase from judging.. The trade off would be you wouldnt get the mana regen normaly get from having the seal active and instead we would get some mana back everytime we judged a target..

    For SS it gets a bit more complex to me.. Maby make it into a mini beacon transfering 25% instead of the beacons 50% and instead of actualy healing the target it would only increase the SS absorv..

    What ideas do you guys have for changes for thouse 2 talents?

  4. #164
    They want us to use SH all they need to do is bring back mana regen from it, or something like JoTP

  5. #165
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ylera View Post
    i disagree, i think our single target heals are pretty strong atm. do you raid 25 mans? i haven't really experienced the heal sniping you describe this tier (10 man heroics). sure it's there, but not to extent that it nullifies our single target heals. so i think your suggestion that it would require a rework of the class is a bit of an overstatement. It's not like EF blanketing is an intended playstyle for the spec, it's an unintended consequence of an overpowered ability, and not the only way to heal viably atm.
    Yes I raid 25m. But even when I raided 10m with a disc priest I experienced the snipping(atonement!), spirit shell, etc.

    Yea you are overestimating our single target healing. They are too expensive and the heals heal for less simply because there is an absorb attached to it. So if someone is already low you will have to heal more to get them topped than other healers.

    And my statement of the changes to what you want requiring total rework of holy paladins and other healer classes is far from an overstatement, it is the flat out truth. We are simply not at all how you described. And there also is no need in the current game for a class that you bring simply for strong single target heals. For that you would rework tanks, because there is too much tank self healing from majority of tank class, along with adjusting the said smart heals of the other healing classes.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-06-21 at 05:35 PM.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Ylera View Post
    i disagree, i think our single target heals are pretty strong atm. do you raid 25 mans? i haven't really experienced the heal sniping you describe this tier (10 man heroics). sure it's there, but not to extent that it nullifies our single target heals. so i think your suggestion that it would require a rework of the class is a bit of an overstatement. It's not like EF blanketing is an intended playstyle for the spec, it's an unintended consequence of an overpowered ability, and not the only way to heal viably atm.
    I'm still not sure if you're trolling or not. I haven't raided 10m heroics in a year, since I'm a 25m heroic raider.
    In 25m heroic, it's very easy to get snip healed by other healing classes, I would think that it doesn't occur nearly as much in 10m.
    EF blanketing is very strong with IH, especially when you have HA up.

    I need to get to the PTR to test this, but I'm thinking that the HOT without IH is pretty pointless (since I'm going to assume that it will be sniped by hots from monks/druids or pre-shields from discs).

    I really hope they give us a benefit to judging. I know 0 healers that judge since there is ZERO benefit to holy judging. Make it an attonement type spell or allow it a 50% chance to gain a holy power...something along these lines.

    And btw...I called this a while back. Proof here:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post21305524

    Let's just see if my other prediction comes to fruition.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Though seriously, am I the only one who does not want to go back to HR and LoD spam?
    I wouldn't mind, is HR and EF spam much better? I would like be able to use a variety of my spells without being punished for doing so. The only reason I do EF spam is because it's currently the best way to heal. If I did it purely preference based, I would use a combination of LoD for raid healing and EF/WoG for the quick burst heal on someone. I like having to make decisions like that. I don't like being pigeon holed into basically spamming one spell. I like LoD and I like EF and I would like to be able to use both depending on the situation.

    You say the LoD spam is mindless, but EF blanketing is not much better. Both require you to predict damage, whether it's because you need to pre-shield or because you need to have that 3-5 points ready to use LoD right after the damage happens.
    Last edited by Lumineux; 2013-06-21 at 05:05 PM.

  8. #168
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineux View Post
    I wouldn't mind, is HR and EF spam much better? I would like be able to use a variety of my spells without being punished for doing so. The only reason I do EF spam is because it's currently the best way to heal. If I did it purely preference based, I would use a combination of LoD for raid healing and EF/WoG for the quick burst heal on someone. I like having to make decisions like that. I don't like being pigeon holed into basically spamming one spell. I like LoD and I like EF and I would like to be able to use both depending on the situation.

    You say the LoD spam is mindless, but EF blanketing is not much better. Both require you to predict damage, whether it's because you need to pre-shield or because you need to have that 3-5 points ready to use LoD right after the damage happens.

    I quit my paladin in DS because of the HR, LoD spam. I was very hesitant when choosing a main to go back to my paladin because I was worried it would go back to that.

  9. #169
    I mentioned this to my guild, and they said - 'Good f*ck EF blanketing...get back to what you were meant to do and heal the tank.'
    I find this funny.

    Aren't we one of the worst tank healers atm -only in front of monks?

    I thought the Living Seed buff made druids the strongest, followed by priests then shammies.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    I mentioned this to my guild, and they said - 'Good f*ck EF blanketing...get back to what you were meant to do and heal the tank.'
    I find this funny.

    Aren't we one of the worst tank healers atm -only in front of monks?

    I thought the Living Seed buff made druids the strongest, followed by priests then shammies.
    Yes most people have no clue how paladins work, even most paladins have no clue about our single target heals. Our single target heals are pathetic, counting both the heal and the mastery we are below shamans and disc priests (and druids too I guess since you mentioned it). That basically means that not only is our heals weak but they are pathetic weak in healing up a tank from 10% to 100% as 20-30% of the heal is from mastery. As I mentioned earlier, we are good for two tank fights because of beacon but that is the only sort of tank healing we are good for.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    Yes most people have no clue how paladins work, even most paladins have no clue about our single target heals. Our single target heals are pathetic, counting both the heal and the mastery we are below shamans and disc priests (and druids too I guess since you mentioned it). That basically means that not only is our heals weak but they are pathetic weak in healing up a tank from 10% to 100% as 20-30% of the heal is from mastery. As I mentioned earlier, we are good for two tank fights because of beacon but that is the only sort of tank healing we are good for.
    Exactly why I said why bother bring a paladin when every other class can do what we do better?

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I quit my paladin in DS because of the HR, LoD spam. I was very hesitant when choosing a main to go back to my paladin because I was worried it would go back to that.
    I just don't get what's so much better about HR > EF spam, because it's exactly the same, you just press a different finisher. Wouldn't it be more fun to choose which finisher you use based on the situation? Rather than being a robot and spamming the same one every time you have the points? To me, HR > EF 100% of time is no different from HR > LoD. Having a choice and being able to pick the right choice is the fun part in my opinion "Oh shit tank just dropped, better EF/WoG bomb him with my points" or "The raid just took a shit ton of damage, better use LoD this time". Right now if pallies want to play optimally, there isn't really a choice, just spam EF.

  13. #173
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineux View Post
    I just don't get what's so much better about HR > EF spam, because it's exactly the same, you just press a different finisher. Wouldn't it be more fun to choose which finisher you use based on the situation? Rather than being a robot and spamming the same one every time you have the points? To me, HR > EF 100% of time is no different from HR > LoD. Having a choice and being able to pick the right choice is the fun part in my opinion "Oh shit tank just dropped, better EF/WoG bomb him with my points" or "The raid just took a shit ton of damage, better use LoD this time". Right now if pallies want to play optimally, there isn't really a choice, just spam EF.
    They don't want us using the EF blanketing playstyle so essentially what it looks like is we shift from using EF to LoD completely. So basically there will not be a choice between the two as you are describing. They are essentially switching us from one to the other. The DS HR/LoD spam though was a lot worse then ef blanketing, you didn't even need a raid frame to do it, it was that mindless. But it wouldn't be completely the same now because of the MoP changes to HR.

  14. #174
    The past few pages remind me of when jab got nerfed into the ground, especially loved the re-rolling posts. Hopefully the change sticks and the compensation is given where due, because eternal flame is retarded atm.
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  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    They don't want us using the EF blanketing playstyle so essentially what it looks like is we shift from using EF to LoD completely. So basically there will not be a choice between the two as you are describing. They are essentially switching us from one to the other. The DS HR/LoD spam though was a lot worse then ef blanketing, you didn't even need a raid frame to do it, it was that mindless. But it wouldn't be completely the same now because of the MoP changes to HR.
    First off, you're kind of making assumptions that they don't want pallies ever using EF again. Whether that will actually be the case or not once 5.4 goes live, I don't know. But from what it sounds like in their post, what they want is "Pallies who like judging to take selfless healer, pallies who like to HoT take EF, and pallies who like shields take SS". If they buffed the HoT portion of EF, I could still see EF being used for fights where there is constant damage (something like Garalon/Heroic Will of the Emp). It's definitely my hope that this idea pans out, and pallies who like each of those can take any of three and still be optimal. So I really do hope that someone like you, who likes HoT healing, can still take EF and someone like me, who doesn't prefer that playstyle, can take something else.

    And sure you do have that on me, that LoD doesn't require raid frames, but don't act like spamming EF takes a lot of thought, because it doesn't. It's literally just a game of "how many EFs can I pump out before the next damage burst" which can end requiring you to do a lot of overhealing with HR in order to generate the Holy Power.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    The past few pages remind me of when jab got nerfed into the ground, especially loved the re-rolling posts. Hopefully the change sticks and the compensation is given where due, because eternal flame is retarded atm.
    How is Eternal Flame retarded atm? Without Eternal Flame we would be so far behind its not funny. Without Eternal Flame Paladins have 1 targeted spell(Holy Shock) and a Sacred Shield to keep up every 30 seconds.


    Edit: And for the record, we will still use EF in Tier 16, even without it procing IH. The encounters(from what i saw in the dungeon journal) favor HoTs . We'll just suck at it.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    They don't want us using the EF blanketing playstyle so essentially what it looks like is we shift from using EF to LoD completely. So basically there will not be a choice between the two as you are describing. They are essentially switching us from one to the other. The DS HR/LoD spam though was a lot worse then ef blanketing, you didn't even need a raid frame to do it, it was that mindless. But it wouldn't be completely the same now because of the MoP changes to HR.
    It highly depends how they compensate for EF not applying mastery/IH anymore. The Initial heal reduction will be reverted as stated in the blue post.
    You could i.e. increase the hot healing Output and make LoD stronger and get SS work with crit and mastery and or even Bacon (5.2, if or not combined with the 5.4 effect is a different Story) and make maybe SH work with HS for Holy (every 18 secs at the max a free/instant heal for 60% more isn t going to be a dealbreaker, just ask a shaman about Unleash element, only increased healing and no instant etc, but it just doesnt make it the ueber Talent)and then you have a choice already again.
    The actual loss of EF hot´s not apply IH anymore doesn´t equal 17% Overall healing as someone wrote above. thats to high; it s rather ~10, but would have to check logs properly again too.
    Just the fact that EF has been majorly nerfed doesn´t mean in the end that we are going to be stuck with the current SH and the 5.4 SS; there will be further changes. A sheer throughput incrase isn´t going to do it alone obviously.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    Edit: And for the record, we will still use EF in Tier 16, even without it procing IH. The encounters(from what i saw in the dungeon journal) favor HoTs . We'll just suck at it.
    Why do the devs have such a boner for HoT healing right now? It's one thing to boost them up and make them more viable, but designing fights around it? What the hell is that all about?

  19. #179
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineux View Post
    First off, you're kind of making assumptions that they don't want pallies ever using EF again. Whether that will actually be the case or not once 5.4 goes live, I don't know. But from what it sounds like in their post, what they want is "Pallies who like judging to take selfless healer, pallies who like to HoT take EF, and pallies who like shields take SS". If they buffed the HoT portion of EF, I could still see EF being used for fights where there is constant damage (something like Garalon/Heroic Will of the Emp). It's definitely my hope that this idea pans out, and pallies who like each of those can take any of three and still be optimal. So I really do hope that someone like you, who likes HoT healing, can still take EF and someone like me, who doesn't prefer that playstyle, can take something else.

    And sure you do have that on me, that LoD doesn't require raid frames, but don't act like spamming EF takes a lot of thought, because it doesn't. It's literally just a game of "how many EFs can I pump out before the next damage burst" which can end requiring you to do a lot of overhealing with HR in order to generate the Holy Power.
    Did I say eternal flame required a lot of thought? I believe I said it required more thought that Dragon Soul HR/LoD spam. The fact that EF is targetted automatically makes it require a little more thought than HR/LoD(especially the form that took place in Dragon Soul).

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    How is Eternal Flame retarded atm? Without Eternal Flame we would be so far behind its not funny. Without Eternal Flame Paladins have 1 targeted spell(Holy Shock) and a Sacred Shield to keep up every 30 seconds.

    Edit: And for the record, we will still use EF in Tier 16, even without it procing IH. The encounters(from what i saw in the dungeon journal) favor HoTs . We'll just suck at it.
    And without jab monks didn't have a viable chi generator
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