Cairne, the sad and betrayed Tauren

[Zulkhan]

Betrayed is not the word I'd use, but he was definitely at fault for the debacle as much as Cairne was.

Pretty much this, Garrosh didn't want to betray anyone, but his guilelessness has been the main cause of the event; he accepted a deadly Mak'gora like Cairne did, and okay, but he also has been tricked and easily manipulated by Magatha, despite he knew her background and her well known opposition against Cairne's rule, foolishily beliving that all her sweet words for him were sincere. This make him if not utterly guilty, more responsible than anyone else about how the whole thing ended.

[fishface]

Rather than splitting hairs here, perhaps we should come up with alternatives to what is, objectively, a pretty bad quote.

Quick and easy:
"...Garrosh is a fool, and a betrayer. I should have killed him long ago, when he took my father's life."

Real Talk:
"...YO DAT NEWJACK IS BUGGIN' B. SHOULDA MURKED HIS ASS WHEN HE CAPPED MA FATHER."

p.s. I kept betrayer in because in my eyes, what Garrosh has done in Mop has betrayed the (new)Horde and it's values.

[Florena]

I think it's the point that Garrosh still killed Cairne. Was he wounded? Yes. Disabled? Yes. The poison didn't kill him though, Garrosh did. It's more a case of Garrosh being an incompetent dueler, than a betrayer, if anything. But to anyone intimately involved (Baine), that could easily be construed as betrayal. Which.. is strange for players (who can see beyond fictional plot) to be upset over.

It was a duel to the death. Cairne would have killed Garrosh if he'd wont he duel too.

And Baine was shown to have known the truth in The Shattering, that is the problem. He knew Cairne started the duel, knew Magatha poisoned the blade. This is just a major derp moment for whoever wrote that scene with him and Vol'jin.

[Mister J]

Baine's dialogue pisses me off.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I like him as a Leader, but really Baine? Accusing Garrosh for betraying your Father?

Cairne issued the Mak'Gora personally. Garrosh raised the terms to the ORIGINAL Custom and stated it was to the death. Cairne agreed. The fact that he agreed settles any debate over whether he was murdered or killed in honourable combat.

Sure, Magatha poisoned Gorehowl. Garrosh had no idea that Cairne had been poisoned. But the duel was still going on as planned and Garrosh's follow-through in his strike ended it right then and there. The fact that it came at the cost of a poisoned blade actually pissed Garrosh off. It totally stole away from 'honourable' duel, as he had originally thought. But the difference is, the 'Honourable duel' was not stolen by Garrosh, but by Magatha.

So yes, Garrosh did kill Cairne, but it was an agreed-upon duel to the death. Cairne WAS winning, but froze up from the poison. There is no murder there in cold-blood, there is no senseless slaughter by Garrosh. It was the PROPER way of settling dispute with the Warchief and it just happened that Magatha stuck her ugly snout in the middle of it.

[Deleted]

from Baine's perspective of course he would feel betrayed by Garrosh.

Garrosh had allied himself with Magatha before the duel and only won because of her poison on his axe. Yes Garrosh kicked up a stink about "honour" and distanced himself from Magatha afterwards, but he HAD to. Orcish (and indeed Horde) culture demanded he won by honourable means and any accusations that he and Magatha conspired to rig the duel would destroy him. Sure Garrosh preached he had no idea of Magatha's plan, but did he REALLY? In Mists he seems to be totally without regard to honour, its not so much of a stretch that he only paid lip service to it just to impress the Orcs and gain power within the Horde (and indeed power always seems to have been his goal, remember his pre-wrath challenge to Thrall? If he killed him he would become Warchief)

We also have to bear in mind that Garrosh did nothing to stop the Grimtotem coup or to help Baine re-take Thunder Bluff after they seized it (Gazlowe a Goblin of all people decided to step in and help him out because he "always liked Baine's father") Its no surprise Baine would feel betrayed.

[Zulkhan]

Nothing hints that Garrosh doesn't regard honor in MoP, at least, that he doesn't regard HIS personal way of honor. About the "true" honor, of which Saurfang talked in Northrend, he never cared about, or simply never understood it, because for Garrosh the word "honor" means glory in battle, in a fight or in a duel, nothing more. It's a selfish, superficial vision of the word, and this idea never changed in Garrosh, nor evolved in something better, "honor" was always been equated to pride and vanity. No wonder he have little problems in taking out Vol'jin by the picture in a manner that have nothing of "truly" honorable.

---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 07:11 PM ----------

We also have to bear in mind that Garrosh did nothing to stop the Grimtotem coup or to help Baine re-take Thunder Bluff after they seized it (Gazlowe a Goblin of all people decided to step in and help him out because he "always liked Baine's father") Its no surprise Baine would feel betrayed.

This is mentioned a bit grudgingly by Baine, in Tides of War, in face of Garrosh; and Garrosh reacts a "little" angered by the suggested "accusation".

[Velshin]

Baine feels Garrosh betrayed his father not because of the poison thingy because he knows it was Magatha fault. Baine said that because Garrosh took almost no action at all to Magatha afterward other than a simple message to her.

[WildcatTM]

I always assumed the original orc attack wasn't common knowledge.

[kruor]

How would you feel if the man you are revolting against killed your father? Would you care or not to know if he knew the spear had been poisoned? We are privy to information not all characters know about, or care to know about.

Point is, Cairne died to Garrosh. Baine is upset at it. Wouldn't you use any reason to justify it? It is literally just another thing on Baine's mind.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It was a duel to the death ... One dies, the other survives. Garrosh won, even if Magatha wouldn't poison his weapon he would still in no way be a betrayer. Cairne challenged him, not Garrosh, and as honorable as Garrosh is, he accepted. It is actually Cairne who betrayed Garrosh.

Blizzard just wants to make Garrosh a bad guy, but not everyone is as blind as fans of OP characters like Superman, Thrall are, some of us still understand what reality is, even if it's just in-game lore.

You're being just as blind. This is what BAINE feels. Has nothing to do with Blizzard retconning anything. He still has anger against him even if it's false. Humans feel this all the time. It's not a bad thing. Stop reading things out of context.

And for those that think it's boring for Thrall's Horde. Well it was Vanilla WoW. Lore was all spread out and not as immersive as it was when WoW launched. This expansion is more or less redoing the Second War.


Also, the word *friend* in the exchange with Vol'Jin is misspelled as well.

[Mx]

It was a duel to the death ... One dies, the other survives. Garrosh won, even if Magatha wouldn't poison his weapon he would still in no way be a betrayer. Cairne challenged him, not Garrosh, and as honorable as Garrosh is, he accepted. It is actually Cairne who betrayed Garrosh.

Cairne simply challenged him to a duel, it was Garrosh that refused and wanted a traditional Mok'gorah, a duel to the death. I really don't see how Cairne betrayed Garrosh when it's Garrosh that's running around changing rules.

It was also obvious that had Gorehowl not been poisoned by Magatha, things would have been very very ugly for Garrosh, he was completely outmatched.

[Bwutty]

Garrosh didn't help Baine protect Thunder Bluff from Magatha.. How is that not betrayal?

[Velshin]

Garrosh didn't help Baine protect Thunder Bluff from Magatha.. How is that not betrayal?

Exactly he didn't take action at all even though he knows it was Magatha that ruined his honorable 1 vs 1 duel with Cairne.

[Deleted]

He isn't objective because Garrosh killed his father, you wouldn't be either, thats all.

[Agent Mercury]

His bloodlust betrayed the honor of that duel. Had it been Thrall oe someone more intelligent he would understand that something was afoot and start the duel over after figuring it out.

Garrosh knows how to fight and would be able to see that as well but instead struck down his opponent who was poisoned.

---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 04:57 PM ----------

Exactly he didn't take action at all even though he knows it was Magatha that ruined his honorable 1 vs 1 duel with Cairne.

also this.

[wariofan1]

When I read that line I took it that he meant that Garrosh had betrayed The Horde, he then states afterwards that he should have killed Garrosh when he killed his father. That's what the "dot" indicates, the lines aren't meant to be connected to each other.

[Thimagryn]

Garrosh not having acted against Magatha in the aftermath has nothing to do with betraying Cairne. Cairne was already dead, and his death was caused by Magatha (even if it was by Garrosh's hand). This isn't Garrosh's fault, and Baine knows this.

Straight from the Shattering:

"I will expect the same challenge from the son as the father, then," he said.
"You will not have it."
Garrosh frowned, not understanding. Baine continued. "Do not think that I would not enjoy fighting you, Garrosh Hellscream. Whatever was on the blade, yours was the hand that cut down my father. But tauren are not so petty. The true killer was Magatha, not you. My father issued the mak'gora, and the argument between you and he is settled, even if, due to Magatha's treachery, the fight was no fair one.

This shows that Baine acknowledges who is really at fault. Magatha's treachery, not Garrosh's.

"Yet--your mercy to the Grimtotem confuses me. I have heard that although you have driven them out, you did not exact revenge on them either. Here, the mak'gora or even stronger revenge seems appropriate. Why did you not execute the Grimtotem? Or at least their deceitful matriarch?"
"Whatever the Grimtotem are, they are tauren. My father suspected that Magatha might prove treacherous, and he kept her here so he could watch her. He chose that path so as not to cause division and strife"

And you can see by this following quote that it was Baine's choice to not exact further revenge on Magatha even when Garrosh would have fully supported such an act. Garrosh isn't in league with Magatha. He was played. This doesn't constitute him being a betrayer because he did not plan out the murder of Cairne, it was a consequence of Magatha's treachery.

[Ealyssa]

Letting the grimtotem join the horde -> Betrayal of Cairn and the horde loyal taurens.

Period

I'm a tauren, and I can't wait to kill Garosh !

[Lynneiah]

Letting the grimtotem join the horde -> Betrayal of Cairn and the horde loyal taurens.

When did this happen?
Last I checked, the Grimtotem of Stonetalon were desperate for Alliance support against the Horde, and in 10K Needles, they were actively fighting both Horde and Alliance.

[Zulkhan]

It was also obvious that had Gorehowl not been poisoned by Magatha, things would have been very very ugly for Garrosh, he was completely outmatched.

Which was a very bastard and malicious turn of events, hinting what Garrosh was truly destinied to become; while tricked and manipulated and so on, the boy that tried all the way to do things "honorably", in fact owed his very survival to a shameful, dishonorable and traitorous act. A very powerful ill-fated mark on Garrosh's back.