5.4, hunters in PvE - concerns, etc.

[Feanoro]

I didn't know that the patch is going live tomorrow. Oh wait, it isn't. Just relax, 8-10 weeks left on PTR

"Just relax, beta/PTR is only beginning."
"It'll be fine, it's still beta/PTR."
"Don't worry, I'm sure they'll adjust in the first patch."
"Be cool, they'll get to us mid-tier."
"It'll be all right once next patch hits."
"Just relax, beta/PTR is only beginning."

I am so damn sick of hearing variants on "Shut up and accept it. Do not question Blizzard's divine will."

Why shouldn't we give feedback like the other classes, exactly? Why shouldn't we express concerns? If constructive feedback and discussion is occurring, why should that be shut down? Because someone who whips out a hunter alt claims we're fine so they can enjoy those sweet incoming free HKs? Or because in their little 10-man, they're beating the mage who drools on himself?

There are legitimate concerns being discussed:
1) PVE is being affected by PVP again.
2) We lack any real utility in the age of stacking raid cooldowns.
3) Since #2 is the case, by Blizzard's own standards, our dps should be much higher. It isn't.
4) We are the sole dps class without a baseline interrupt.
5) Our supposed dps cooldowns (Stampede, Rapid Fire) are laughable.
6) Pet AI is still abysmal.
7) Any time we aren't garbage in PVP, we're slapped down hard. Meanwhile, certain classes or specs have dominated effectively since Season 1. Double standards ain't fun. (I'll go out on a limb and guess that's one major reason most of the people in this thread don't care about PVP.)

I'm probably missing a few as I'm writing this quickly, but to hear someone simply hand wave it away as if trivial is borderline insulting.

[Deleted]

my comment was on those who were dooming hunters due to the explosive trap change alone.
Legitimate concerns remain legitimate while they are taken as a whole in a constructive way, and providing alternatives. Crying about a single patch note which is a really minor change is not, as it is not constructive in any way, on the contrary, it is harmful for our interests. Thats not feedback, thats QQing.

[Tehstool]

"Just relax, beta/PTR is only beginning."
"It'll be fine, it's still beta/PTR."
"Don't worry, I'm sure they'll adjust in the first patch."
"Be cool, they'll get to us mid-tier."
"It'll be all right once next patch hits."
"Just relax, beta/PTR is only beginning."

I am so damn sick of hearing variants on "Shut up and accept it. Do not question Blizzard's divine will."

They even haven't started doing number adjustments yet. Just hold on until they do it (and they will do it) and then comment on the changes. Saying they haven't done anything is pointless.

[Feanoro]

Saying they haven't done anything is pointless.

That's not even remotely what I said.

[asdfsaf]

paragons of the klaxxi is a nice boss. while dps on the two bosses that you aren't focusing is useless, many classes still gain single target dps from dotting them. of course, hunters don't.

[Libertarian]

Hunters feel insanely weak on klaxxi boss. At least we'll be brought to siege guy for the move casting on conveyor belt. And yes I know numbers haven't been tweaked, but I'm not holding my breath for anything massive.

[Daetur]

They even haven't started doing number adjustments yet. Just hold on until they do it (and they will do it) and then comment on the changes. Saying they haven't done anything is pointless.

Actually, Teh, I agree with him. Nothing he included in his list of concerns related to numbers.

I'm certain dps will be compensated in some way, that's not really the concern. The concern is Blizzard's seeming lack of direction with hunters. If the compensation is massive and brings us high enough on damage to compensate for our lack of utility, then, yeah, ok, I guess nothing needed to be said.

But they're showing right now, I feel, that they don't understand the needs of a PvE player, especially in 10m raiding.

[Feanoro]

my comment was on those who were dooming hunters due to the explosive trap change alone.

You might want to edit for better clarity then.

Saying they haven't done anything is pointless.

That's not even remotely what I said.

[Tehstool]

Actually, Teh, I agree with him. Nothing he included in his list of concerns related to numbers.

They haven't even done number changes yet as in they aren't even done with mechanic changes.

That's not even remotely what I said.

Could you please clarify then? It seems like you were talking about all what you think is wrong with the class. It's barely the third (?) PTR patch push, it's not like they aren't looking at their feedback.

[Feanoro]

Could you please clarify then? It seems like you were talking about all what you think is wrong with the class. It's barely the third (?) PTR patch push, it's not like they aren't looking at their feedback.

I'm talking about how every single patch/beta/hotfix/etc, there's a chorus saying "Just wait, just relax, don't rock the boat" or whatever phrasing you like. If it was directed solely at QQ threads, I would agree completely, but this is also used to hammer constructive discussion. People actively discouraging feedback are NOT helping.

Ever heard the old saw "Silence gives assent"? By the urged quiet waiting, Blizzard has repeatedly assumed we were fine with their changes. The one change I can recall that we actually spoke up about at the levels of all the other classes was Aspects on cooldown. Even then, the response we got was a grudging "Well, since you're just going to macro it into shots anyway..."

So again I ask, why shouldn't we give feedback like the other classes, exactly? Why shouldn't we express concerns? If constructive feedback and discussion is occurring, why should that be shut down? Why should we wait and hope everyone lives happily ever after?

[TJ]

You can give all the feedback you want, whether Blizzard listens is another matter.

[Tehstool]

I'm talking about how every single patch/beta/hotfix/etc, there's a chorus saying "Just wait, just relax, don't rock the boat" or whatever phrasing you like. If it was directed solely at QQ threads, I would agree completely, but this is also used to hammer constructive discussion. People actively discouraging feedback are NOT helping.

Ever heard the old saw "Silence gives assent"? By the urged quiet waiting, Blizzard has repeatedly assumed we were fine with their changes. The one change I can recall that we actually spoke up about at the levels of all the other classes was Aspects on cooldown. Even then, the response we got was a grudging "Well, since you're just going to macro it into shots anyway..."

So again I ask, why shouldn't we give feedback like the other classes, exactly? Why shouldn't we express concerns? If constructive feedback and discussion is occurring, why should that be shut down? Why should we wait and hope everyone lives happily ever after?

I'm not saying not to. I'm just saying they must be looking at their feedback since Ghostcrawler commented on Draco's post. They haven't had enough time to look through and change stuff accordingly.

[bewsh]

I'm not saying not to. I'm just saying they must be looking at their feedback since Ghostcrawler commented on Draco's post. They haven't had enough time to look through and change stuff accordingly.

I'm not sure what gives you that impression other than good faith, of which I've none left to offer the devs.

A customer service rep gave him a textbook public relations response which neither addressed nor provided anything of substance.

GC's direct tweets to you indicate that we're a bunch of clueless crybabies craving attention; and moreover that our position in the larger picture is fine as far as development is concerned. Sure they might be looking at the feedback - but he has all nearly straight up told you directly it's being dismissed.

The people who respond to community posts and feedback and manage the "face" of the company's online presence -- the community managers who handle social media -- these are all marketing staff. Their job is to elevate your opinion of Blizzard, nothing more and nothing less. They are not on your side, they are not on your team in any way, shape, or form.

If any single one of them had half of a spine they would have address Draco's post directly -- even just one of the valid concerns -- and not the cries of neglect in that thread. We got appeasement meant to calm the community down long enough for the notes of the next nerf to be rolled out.

[Deleted]

Only because hunters are probably the hardest class to design properly.

1) pets are not easy to design and balance around, especially when such a large portion of your dps is single target and melee only. Blink strike and stampede only served to further the problem.

2) you have all the benefits of being a ranged class without any of the drawbacks. Giving hunters AotF baseline was a horrible decision seeing how the only thing keeping you from never standing still was cobra/ss. Since movement is now a non factor for hunters and you are a ranged class, the only way to keep you from absolutely dominating is to make cleaving/multi-dotting your weakness.

3) you only have one cast time ability in cobra/ss ,unless you're mm of course, which leads to a lot of damage coming very rapidly. Hunters probably have the best 5 second burst in the game that doesn't have a positional requirement, doesn't require melee range and is all instant. And you have it all the time, the only thing you need for it is focus.

Overall, Hunters are probably the easiest class to make accidentally op and as such have been relegated to being average for the most part, in pve that is.

Now comes why you're so op in arenas.

1) Hunters are nearly impossible to counter. Melee can be counted by kiting. If you're a ranged class you can hit them when they can't hit you. Casters can be countered by interrupts. They need to cast to do damage. (Hint, why are frost mages so strong). You can't kite a hunter, and you can't interrupt them. If you can hit him, he can hit you.

2) What previously kept them in check was minimum range. Minimum range acted as sort of an interrupt but it didn't cripple them since they had few cast time spells and couldn't be locked out.

3) movement has no effect on hunters. They can literally chase you all match without losing any damage.

4) There is no smart positional play required for a hunter to unload on you. Casters need to be away from melee and ideally near LoS so they can't easily be CCed halfway through their cast. The only cast time hunters have is the one ability that does minimal damage. Again, previously held in check by minimum range and needing to activate Fox to be able to regen focus.

5) since hunters are balanced around no cleave/multi dot they are very front loaded.

To sum it up, you hit fast, you hit from anywhere, you can't be kited, you can't be interrupted, you can't be CCed while casting since you have no casts, you can't be shut down through minimum range, you're 100% mobile.

Can you see how these issues in pvp do need to get addressed which sadly does affect pve as well.

To be fair, all I hear is 'I'm a bad player, please nerf hunters so I stand a chance'.

Hunters are easy to shut down, I have no issues to shut down any hunter in pvp on any class (as a mage it's tricky though).

Death Knight : Stun hunter during bw, and aoe freeze stampede.
Druid : Cyclone during bw, vortex and typhoon on stampede.
Monk : Disarm, paralysis pet during bw, ring of peace stampede.
Mage : Frost nova, freeze stampede, poly hunter during bw.
Paladin : Bop during stampede, blinding light on stampede, stun during bw, repentance during bw.
Priest : Void tendril stampede, fear hunter during bw
Rogue : Not sure what to do on stampede, I generally just vanish and wait it out, and just sit on hunter till he's dead.
Warrior : Fear on stampede, leap charge during bw, disarm during bw.
Warlock : Fear spam anytime during cds. Stun stampede if specced into it.

In general people complain a lot about bm being to op. People seem to not know when and how to use cc so they neutralize the class they are facing and I see this all the time in arena, people just being clueless and then crying on forums for nerfs. Wanna be good vs a bm hunter, keep the pet slowed, ccd and kill it twice, then just sit on him till he dies and do some kind of cc when he tries to res, eventually they'll give up.

This goes for pretty much any class you are facing, know their cds, anticipate well, use your cc at the correct times and it opens up the field.

[CTwin]

They even haven't started doing number adjustments yet. Just hold on until they do it (and they will do it) and then comment on the changes. Saying they haven't done anything is pointless.

So nerfing Explosive trap by 30% isn't a number adjustment...

You know what would have made sense

"Explosive trap has had its damage reduced by 30% - our intention is that people don't use it as part of a rotation in single target because its messy."

[bewsh]

So nerfing Explosive trap by 30% isn't a number adjustment...

You know what would have made sense

"Explosive trap has had its damage reduced by 30% - our intention is that people don't use it as part of a rotation in single target because its messy."

This. I look through Paladin threads, I see detailed responses. I see interaction, explanations.

I look through paladin threads, I see interaction, I see details. I see explanations.


In the half dozen threads+ threads I've seen re: hunters there is jack shit other than a placating response.

[Tehstool]

So nerfing Explosive trap by 30% isn't a number adjustment...

You know what would have made sense

"Explosive trap has had its damage reduced by 30% - our intention is that people don't use it as part of a rotation in single target because its messy."

That is different. Our single target dps without explosive trap remained the same. Which was their intention. Just wait for the readiness compensation, we will most likely get an AoE buff because of this.

[Feanoro]

Maybe this is the first step to reducing our button clutter, nerfing Exp Trap to the point we don't give it a spot on our bars...

[CTwin]

That is different. Our single target dps without explosive trap remained the same. Which was their intention. Just wait for the readiness compensation, we will most likely get an AoE buff because of this.

But where ultimately do they expect us to sit? Saying they will do a number pass isn't worth anything - they are doing number passes NOW. If they want to test things with numbers start tossing ideas where we are going sit as a complete package - not as a remove 1/3rd of my toolkit from a frame of reference then built it back up.

Also all this talk about nerfing our burst because of PvP doesn't sit well, when i have ele/enh shaman's 5-10i below me, bursting to 500-600k, and plateauing to 140-160k. Meanwhile I burst barely to 300k, taper down to 140k (528i, no meta/cloak, no juju). I get that on high movement fights i don't drop, but neither does our rogue/dk who burst 300-320k and are sitting on 160-180k.

At the start of 5.3 I was 520i, I did more damage than I do now at 528i - this is a direct result of Blink Strikes and Stampede being nerfed hard.

I consider myself a competent player, and whilst i could work harder to nail every double KC during BW, and slot FF just after BW fades rather than 30s out from BW popping - its not going to make 20k sustained dps.

[Tehstool]

But where ultimately do they expect us to sit? Saying they will do a number pass isn't worth anything - they are doing number passes NOW. If they want to test things with numbers start tossing ideas where we are going sit as a complete package - not as a remove 1/3rd of my toolkit from a frame of reference then built it back up.

Also all this talk about nerfing our burst because of PvP doesn't sit well, when i have ele/enh shaman's 5-10i below me, bursting to 500-600k, and plateauing to 140-160k. Meanwhile I burst barely to 300k, taper down to 140k (528i, no meta/cloak, no juju). I get that on high movement fights i don't drop, but neither does our rogue/dk who burst 300-320k and are sitting on 160-180k.

At the start of 5.3 I was 520i, I did more damage than I do now at 528i - this is a direct result of Blink Strikes and Stampede being nerfed hard.

I consider myself a competent player, and whilst i could work harder to nail every double KC during BW, and slot FF just after BW fades rather than 30s out from BW popping - its not going to make 20k sustained dps.

They still haven't given us compensation for readiness. When they add in the compensation, we will be buffed quite a bit because of the arcane shot change.