5.4, hunters in PvE - concerns, etc.

[Deleted]

I think the problem beneath is not class design per se. As I see it, encounter design is the main problem. For the last 2 expansions, encounters gravitate around raid CD stacking and/or multidotting/aoe/cleave. as they add more CDs demanding mechanics , ppl asks for more CDs, and the more CDs they give to many classes/specs, the more new CD demanding mechanics they add. It is a vicious circle, and I think the key is to break the circle, not to be included in it. It needs to start by changing the damage mechanics of the bosses, requiring less CD spam, and more active healing styles and mechanics that can be really countered by personal skill or whatever, instead of just AoE spam ones were 80% of the damage is mitigated by raid wide CDs or healed by passive healing or chaining big CDs. Personally I rolled a pure DPS to DPS, not to offheal or the raid to be dependant on my CDs, but on my DPS. If an encounter phase requires 10 raid CDs to survive it, then it is just poor and lazy design. If you can beat by 1 min the enrage timer of any boss on the FK, then it is poorly designed aswell. Then you don't need DPSs to DPS, you need them to spam CDs in order to beat the encounter. this is AWFUL design.

That being said, if this doesn't change they need to give every class/spec a worthy raid CD, as well as an interrupt. There's no room for class uniqueness anymore in wow, homogeneization it is.

[Dracodraco]

Thing is, encounter design might be an issue (needing CD's to get through an encounter).
We can't expect them to make a U-turn on their design mid-expansion though, so the thing we CAN hope for, is being brought in line with the current design.
Ignore every kind of utility (survivability, stampeding roar, mocking banner, AOE stun, silences, etc), cut in to the bare bone -
Only three DPS classes do NOT have some kind of raid cooldown - be it a reduction/survivability CD (AMZ, devo, rally), or a healing CD (tranq, VE, AG).
Those three DPS classes are Monks, Mages, and Hunters.
When the encounters rely on CD's to be beaten, it means that if we want to be taken to a raid, we need to compete with Monks and Mages on the DPS. We don't. We DID with monks, but hey, their buffs + rune of reorg cheesing is just a liiiiiittle better than anything a hunter can pull off.

[Marxman]

I don't think being included in the giant cooldown clusterf*** that is 25H raiding will help our issues. The best we can hope for is being brought in line with Mages/Locks/Rogues as far as DPS goes and then hoping they change their encounter design philosophies in the next expansion. I think they need to get away from these cooldown-required huge damage spikes in favor of more attrition-based healing like we've seen in previous expansions. Hell, it's even easier to balance now because of fixed mana pools for healers.

Something to keep in mind though is that it's very easy to make us overpowered because of how consistent our damage is. We're middle-of-the-road on pretty much every fight (with one or two encounters that favor us), whereas most classes are pretty hit or miss. Our mobile damage model gives us great consistency. If we're suddenly tuned to where Mages/Locks are, we'd be pretty hugely OP.

[Daetur]

Added, thanks.

But yea - I think we can agree on the fact that the only reason you'll ever see a hunter in a progress raid is for soaking up loot that no one else wants, giving us the edge we need to perform.
So... Is is really the point of hunters? To ONLY be able to perform in a progress raid if severely overgeared, and falling behind untill the mid-patch buffs are brought in to keep us stable in the middle?
I mean. I don't even give a fuck if I HAVE to be in the midle of the dps pack. That's where everyone should be. It's a good place to be. Just don't let us suffer under classes with better dps having raid utility we can't even dream of.

EXACTLY.

I can deal with being middle of the pack just fine. I don't need or WANT overpowered, top-5 DPS numbers. I just want to feel like my class is worth something, has something no one else can bring. I want to INTERACT with my raid and coordinate a cooldown.

But it feels incredibly shitty to play my hunter because I've put the most time into her and feel like I might as well swap to another class, because my raid already has a hunter, and if I swapped I could bring both more damage and more utility. Guess what buffs my 10m are missing right now? Heroism, Crit, and Spell power. Guess what class I'd rather be? A mage would be better than my hunter in every conceivable way in a raiding environment right now.

[Buu]

Well, for me in sum, they simply took off the game everything cool they made to hunters.
They are pretty bland in 5.4. Basically you have no cool thing to brag about as most classes. We are basically a Mirliton Popsicle.

[Slot]

Well, Ghostcrawler just tweeted me and it's a good amount of detailed posts.

Stampede was never intended to provide utility. It's a DPS cooldown.

Silencing Shot is tough. As a talent, it will always get chosen. But hunters don't need more CC so we don't want to bake it in.

Readiness we are still iterating on. Removing offense or removing the ability both still on the table.

Pet survivability we can look at, but pets aren't supposed to be free DPS with no management either.

We are pretty happy with raid utility for all specs. Every class asks for more to guarantee a raid spot.

But we don't want guaranteed raid spots, and overall raid comp diversity is satisfactory for us.

Yea because they didnt nerf Stampede to be nearly useless... only doiong auto attacks yea thats a dps cooldown for a level 87...

So we become 1/3 specs without an interupt because they think that having to land a perfect ice trap using scatter shot is too much CC...

GC is so far from anything in this game it hurts my eyes sometimes to read his posts.

I do love reading stuff like "We think this ability/class is doing fine", then following week " We will be buffing said ability/class because it has shortfalls".

[Pengalor]

Yea because they didnt nerf Stampede to be nearly useless... only doiong auto attacks yea thats a dps cooldown for a level 87...

So we become 1/3 specs without an interupt because they think that having to land a perfect ice trap using scatter shot is too much CC...

GC is so far from anything in this game it hurts my eyes sometimes to read his posts.

I do love reading stuff like "We think this ability/class is doing fine", then following week " We will be buffing said ability/class because it has shortfalls".

Yeah, GC really gets on my nerves. He always says things like "well, our internal numbers don't show that" and yet we NEVER get to see the numbers, they are never shared with us. They don't even try to make some up, they just say "nope, we see it better". I love that raid utility comment he makes there. Can anyone tell me exactly what raid utility we have besides filling in a single spot that might be missing? Seriously, am I missing something? We don't have objectively better CC in PVE, we don't have better raid CDs (or any for that matter), we had a single interrupt (not including pet interrupts that aren't very good anyway) but that's now limited to a single spec. The best thing I can think of is we have Deterrence which completely nullifies a couple of mechanics (like Static Shock). How is that enough to justify bringing us? How is that us having sufficient raid utility?

[Cyi]

I just posted this on the PTR US forums. Link is below.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9377138777

[Tehstool]

I just posted this on the PTR US forums. Link is below.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9377138777

I think this has been cross posted enough considering ghostcrawler saw it.

[Libertarian]

Draco to be fair, we do bring AOE sunder armor which no other class brings and is a slight dps boost in certain situations, assuming you're running 25m because a lot of 10m comps can't bring it. But this really isn't on the level like stormlash, banner, smoke bomb, etc.

[Larry01]

Incorrect. DPS can be fixed and adjusted and tuned easily by a tweak of Aspect of the Hawk. But unless Blizzard deliberately makes Hunter DPS 5% better than everybody else's (Spoiler: they won't), Hunters will still be holding the short end of the stick.

I disagree with you, fact is that hunters are not getting a raid cd, it's not even on the table. So to continue to accept below average dps while saying all we need is a raid cd is kind of short sighted. Pretending that dps is not the issue for a pure dps goes beyond short sighted into the realm of insanity...

Just because we happen to have only DPS specs doesn't mean we should automatically be top DPS.

That's not what he said, he said "top of the line" as in top 5? What's wrong with wanting to be top 5 on the majority of fights like mages and locks? Reading some of these posts is incredible, people willing to give up doing good dps for a raid cd... Last I checked hunters are pure dps, it's what we are supposed to do and do well. How about we get that fixed then go for some utility?

[Dracodraco]

Draco to be fair, we do bring AOE sunder armor which no other class brings and is a slight dps boost in certain situations, assuming you're running 25m because a lot of 10m comps can't bring it. But this really isn't on the level like stormlash, banner, smoke bomb, etc.

The amount of physical AOE aviable is limited to...

Multishot / Beast cleave.
Warriors whatever the hell they do.
Rogues FoK (which, akin to survs aoe, sucks on its own - the poisons do the "real" damage).
Monk's spinning crane kick.
Feral's Swipe/Thrash.
Pets from Demo locks (?) and Unh DK's.

I guess you're right that it's something no one else "brings". On the other hand, it's reliable on even more pet management for a minor gain. I just tried looking at multishots dmg for BM, enabling/unabling sunders makes it hit from 25.1k to 26.1k. So 1K more per extra sundered target, per multishot. It's a gain of about 4% dmg.
Disregarding the fact that it would probably be wasted half the time unless you want to min-max a 25 second debuff on a pet that will be dealing the majority of your damage (meaning downtime on it to switch it to a better target could probably result in losing the DPS gained), let's take Lei Shen as an example. You want the balls to die ASAP. Using this log http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2333&e=2941 as a reference, let's see how much the dmg aoe sunder would have gained the hunter Gastoz alone (no AOE sunders were used, checked debuffs on balls).

5953K multi shot dmg.
18377K Beast cleave dmg.
24330*1.04=25303.
So an increase of about 900K dmg over the fight (remember, lei shen will always be debuffed and a target, meaning that the AOE-sunder will not give it any benefit.

This IS a bigger benefit than Stormlash seems to give (about 1.1M, but 2x shamans so double the stormlashes), which is something. The issue is that it requires much heavier min-maxing than dropping a totem or a banner once every 3 minutes, and the fact that it only benefits half of the physical dps, and does nothing for the rest / casters.
For shits and giggles, let's take a look at the total physical AOE dmg balls took for this log:
1500K glaive toss.
830K deep wounds.
1360K Sweeping claws (unh DK transformed pet AOE).
5418K Thrash.
6372K Multi Shot.
7982K Thunderclap.
9031K Felstorm.
13686K Swipe.
20369K Shockwave.
22112K Beast Cleave.
Total of: 88660K. * 1.04= 92206K.
An increase of 3546K damage over the entire fight due to the AOE sunder.

And now, let's look at the added dmg from stormlash:
20919K. Divide it by 2, as there's 2 shamans. So roughly 11.5M dmg.

There's just no comparison. You can also count the fact that AOE-sunders are on such a short cooldown that IF you choose that the extra damage from it is worth the management, you'd still only need one hunter to do it. So... We're back to having one hunter around to soak up gear. The only difference is, he might benefit a third of a stormlash on an encounter that has heavy AOE requirements, if he manages his pet flawlessly.

I don't really see that as utility. I see that as something a skilled hunter will do to make himself feel a little less useless, on the few fights where you get to AOE.
Funny enough, though, AOE + mobility fights (like Lei Shen) are where hunters really shine, meaning we don't even need the AOE-sunder to be worth it on THAT kind of fight. We can only hope we'll see more of them (looking forward to dark shamans ).

I disagree with you, fact is that hunters are not getting a raid cd, it's not even on the table. So to continue to accept below average dps while saying all we need is a raid cd is kind of short sighted. Pretending that dps is not the issue for a pure dps goes beyond short sighted into the realm of insanity...



That's not what he said, he said "top of the line" as in top 5? What's wrong with wanting to be top 5 on the majority of fights like mages and locks? Reading some of these posts is incredible, people willing to give up doing good dps for a raid cd... Last I checked hunters are pure dps, it's what we are supposed to do and do well. How about we get that fixed then go for some utility?

We're not "willingly giving up doing good dps for a raid cd".
We're saying that if they think our DPS is fine, we'd be fine getting some raid utility, like all other classes.
A raid CD not "being on the table" didn't seem to matter for rogues - if I recall correct, they got Smoke Bomb in 5.2, because they "felt weak" utility wise. Correct me if wrong about the reason, though, I guess. Just saying, they got a raid CD for ToT. No reason we couldn't for Siege, if the Devs finally realise that hunter utility is in the shitter.

[Beace]

I disagree with you, fact is that hunters are not getting a raid cd, it's not even on the table.

Are you basing this on something official, or just talking out of your ass?

[Linkin2895]

BM hunters being too good in PvP is ruining em in PvE as it seems.
Oh well...

[Perrito]

The amount of physical AOE aviable is limited to...

Multishot / Beast cleave.
Warriors whatever the hell they do.
Rogues FoK (which, akin to survs aoe, sucks on its own - the poisons do the "real" damage).
Monk's spinning crane kick.
Feral's Swipe/Thrash.
Pets from Demo locks (?) and Unh DK's.

I guess you're right that it's something no one else "brings". On the other hand, it's reliable on even more pet management for a minor gain. I just tried looking at multishots dmg for BM, enabling/unabling sunders makes it hit from 25.1k to 26.1k. So 1K more per extra sundered target, per multishot. It's a gain of about 4% dmg.
Disregarding the fact that it would probably be wasted half the time unless you want to min-max a 25 second debuff on a pet that will be dealing the majority of your damage (meaning downtime on it to switch it to a better target could probably result in losing the DPS gained), let's take Lei Shen as an example. You want the balls to die ASAP. Using this log http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2333&e=2941 as a reference, let's see how much the dmg aoe sunder would have gained the hunter Gastoz alone (no AOE sunders were used, checked debuffs on balls).

5953K multi shot dmg.
18377K Beast cleave dmg.
24330*1.04=25303.
So an increase of about 900K dmg over the fight (remember, lei shen will always be debuffed and a target, meaning that the AOE-sunder will not give it any benefit.

This IS a bigger benefit than Stormlash seems to give (about 1.1M, but 2x shamans so double the stormlashes), which is something. The issue is that it requires much heavier min-maxing than dropping a totem or a banner once every 3 minutes, and the fact that it only benefits half of the physical dps, and does nothing for the rest / casters.
For shits and giggles, let's take a look at the total physical AOE dmg balls took for this log:
1500K glaive toss.
830K deep wounds.
1360K Sweeping claws (unh DK transformed pet AOE).
5418K Thrash.
6372K Multi Shot.
7982K Thunderclap.
9031K Felstorm.
13686K Swipe.
20369K Shockwave.
22112K Beast Cleave.
Total of: 88660K. * 1.04= 92206K.
An increase of 3546K damage over the entire fight due to the AOE sunder.

And now, let's look at the added dmg from stormlash:
20919K. Divide it by 2, as there's 2 shamans. So roughly 11.5M dmg.

There's just no comparison. You can also count the fact that AOE-sunders are on such a short cooldown that IF you choose that the extra damage from it is worth the management, you'd still only need one hunter to do it. So... We're back to having one hunter around to soak up gear. The only difference is, he might benefit a third of a stormlash on an encounter that has heavy AOE requirements, if he manages his pet flawlessly.

I don't really see that as utility. I see that as something a skilled hunter will do to make himself feel a little less useless, on the few fights where you get to AOE.
Funny enough, though, AOE + mobility fights (like Lei Shen) are where hunters really shine, meaning we don't even need the AOE-sunder to be worth it on THAT kind of fight. We can only hope we'll see more of them (looking forward to dark shamans ).





We're not "willingly giving up doing good dps for a raid cd".
We're saying that if they think our DPS is fine, we'd be fine getting some raid utility, like all other classes.
A raid CD not "being on the table" didn't seem to matter for rogues - if I recall correct, they got Smoke Bomb in 5.2, because they "felt weak" utility wise. Correct me if wrong about the reason, though, I guess. Just saying, they got a raid CD for ToT. No reason we couldn't for Siege, if the Devs finally realise that hunter utility is in the shitter.

Are you doing your math with 1 stack of sunders or 3, because the debuff put out 1 stack every 25 sec so you need 75 seconds to fully debuff all targets to a 12% armor reduction.

i find myself singletargeting adds in lei shen, we just spanw 3 thats it, the pet is a pain to micro manage to it hit the adds and the boss, if you leave it on the boss it wont touch the adds, so you swithc to the adds and sometimes 1-2 balls slip and get out of the clump. i went and just single target 1 ball and ended up doing more damage.

not worth the time and effort. not to mention that we have no mage in our raid neither a WW or a feral druid so doing anything without a Wolf is imposible to me. i guess i could just switch to the tailstrider before bolts but thats 6 sec of doing no damage per bolts cast, around 24-36 sec per fight. not worth it.

[Slot]

Are you doing your math with 1 stack of sunders or 3, because the debuff put out 1 stack every 25 sec so you need 75 seconds to fully debuff all targets to a 12% armor reduction.

i find myself singletargeting adds in lei shen, we just spanw 3 thats it, the pet is a pain to micro manage to it hit the adds and the boss, if you leave it on the boss it wont touch the adds, so you swithc to the adds and sometimes 1-2 balls slip and get out of the clump. i went and just single target 1 ball and ended up doing more damage.

not worth the time and effort. not to mention that we have no mage in our raid neither a WW or a feral druid so doing anything without a Wolf is imposible to me. i guess i could just switch to the tailstrider before bolts but thats 6 sec of doing no damage per bolts cast, around 24-36 sec per fight. not worth it.

Unless they recently changed this the pet puts up all 3 stack at once. Its the best pet because it is the only aoe sunder in game. and unless you are in a 10m you will have all the raid buffs anyways. I always use this pet on add bosses.

[Zeherah]

Are you doing your math with 1 stack of sunders or 3, because the debuff put out 1 stack every 25 sec so you need 75 seconds to fully debuff all targets to a 12% armor reduction.

Unless it's been nerfed since the last time I checked, the tallstrider actually applies all 3 stacks when it does the AoE armor debuff, unlike the raptor which has to stack 3 times with the single target debuff. That's why the raptor has a shorter CD than the tallstrider for the debuff.

[Tehstool]

It has not been nerfed, it always applies 3 stacks.

[Avikur]

How about giving Hunters a new raid cooldown that no other class has (that I know of or can think of) something like Timewarp but rather than give 30% haste how about it gives 30% increased crit chance or 30% increased mastery, something not tied to a type of pet but more as a long cooldown (again like TW) - maybe have it so it can't be active at the same time as timewarp so it takes some planning and isn't op.

Just as an idea off the top of my head! Probably too much of a change for 5.4 but the kind of thing they should look at for 6.0.

The other idea is give them a Healthstone equivalent - Hunters don't have much by way of self healing and also Warlocks are the only class with HS's so that could work.

[Libertarian]

How about giving Hunters a new raid cooldown that no other class has (that I know of or can think of) something like Timewarp but rather than give 30% haste how about it gives 30% increased crit chance or 30% increased mastery, something not tied to a type of pet but more as a long cooldown (again like TW) - maybe have it so it can't be active at the same time as timewarp so it takes some planning and isn't op.

Just as an idea off the top of my head! Probably too much of a change for 5.4 but the kind of thing they should look at for 6.0.

The other idea is give them a Healthstone equivalent - Hunters don't have much by way of self healing and also Warlocks are the only class with HS's so that could work.

They could make the healing tier extend raid wide example:

Spirit bond passive: 3% health every 2s. When used extends to raid for 10s. 2min cd

Iron hawk: (remove aspects they're worthless) Make iron hawk / hawk passive. When used extends 10% reduction to raid for 6s. 3min cd

Exhilaration: Heals yourself for 30%, your pet for 100% and any nearby party or raid members for 15%. 1.5m cd


Nothing op in my eyes. Brings a little something extra for us depending on situations and might allow us to diversify that tier a bit more.