New 5.4 Trinkets also set nerfs.

[Ulfhedinn]

Clash - This isn't even on my bars or keybound. I don't think I have even used the spell ever in the history of my monk tbh.

I am amazed that people like this exist in anything other than a guild that couldn't handle Naxx at 90.

[Viradiance]

I am amazed that people like this exist in anything other than a guild that couldn't handle Naxx at 90.

It's not a fantastic ability, but I've used it plenty-- especially in Challenge Modes. Also useful on raid trash, or add fights like Horridon.

[Dimzum]

It's not a fantastic ability, but I've used it plenty-- especially in Challenge Modes. Also useful on raid trash, or add fights like Horridon.

Agreed. Hell while during Ice Lord Ahune I've used it more than ever. If I am launched in the air, Clash down to them since it won't pull them up. It's one of those abilities I swap out frequently on my bars depending on the occasion.

[Serendepityz]

You serious?

Says the monk tank. Really if I were a warrior I'd be a little bit insulted to see monks complaining about wanting to get buffed up to Paladins. You may not have it as good as the overpowered paladins, but you're only so far removed when the other tanks are just an entirely different league.

I think your being a little offensive here....... gynshon is saying he wants warrior/dk/druid brought UP to monks and pallys at no point does he say we need buffs.

---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 05:08 PM ----------

I am amazed that people like this exist in anything other than a guild that couldn't handle Naxx at 90.

I do not use clash nor is it on my keyboard.

[Deleted]

I love Clash. While it is situational, it has many uses! It's awesome in challenge mode, on Horridon HC, on Council HC if people mess up Twisted Fate and there's no DK, Megaera to interrupt/move adds, and just for stunning any kind of trash.

[Vargarii]

I am amazed that people like this exist in anything other than a guild that couldn't handle Naxx at 90.

How? It has very little use in content. I use it occasional on some of the horridon adds, but it really serves no(gamebreaking) purpose in any fight. It's just not that good.

[gynshon]

I am amazed that people like this exist in anything other than a guild that couldn't handle Naxx at 90.

I love comments like this, they really make my day. Clash is a fairly useless ability for a progression raider. Trash is trash and we get along just fine without the use of Clash. There is not one trash pull we have ever done where my raid team goes "You know what, I sure wish we had someone that would use Clash".

Let's break it down by tier, by encounter:

Tier 14
Stoneguards - Useless.
Feng - Useless.
Garajal - Maybe down below? But in actuality Tiger's Lust or a Roll does just fine. So I will stick with Useless.
Kings - Useless.
Elegon - Useless. Maybe on one of the wyrmlings?
Will of The Emp - Possibly slightly useful here for the first 30-45 secs of the fight? Then Useless.
Vizier - Useless.
Blade Lord - Useless.
Garalon - Useless.
Wind Lord - Useless.
Amber Shaper - Useless.
Shek'zeer - Potentially useful for the transitions, but the stun resets their swing timers, so...
Protectors - Useless.
Tsulong - Possibly useful here.
Lei Shei - Possibly useful here.
Sha of Fear - Useless.

Tier 15
Jin'rokh - Useless.
Horridon - Some people say it is useful here. Personally, I just grab and SCK. No issues.
Council - Useless.
Tortos - Bat tanking might be useful here. I can see getting agro,dbl roll, clash back.
Megaera - Useless. We run with 2 boomkins. Adds are a non-issue.
Ji-kun - Useless.
Durumu - Useless.
Primordius - Useless.
Dark Animus - Useless.
Twins - Useless.
Lei Shen - Maybe for balls? I would be surprised if I was outside of 8 yards when they get gripped in.. I will stick with Useless.
Ra-den - Useless.

23/28 encounters Clash is useless in my opinion. Maybe I am wrong and it is the best ability ever, but I don't think I am wrong. Now to be fair, I don't do challenge modes because they do not interest me. We blow through trash insanely fast as it is, even during progression and we never had any issues except for Dark Animus trash when people failed at interrupts. Don't think Clash would have helped there.

It isn't on my bars, it won't be on my bars. That is my opinion. Now you are more than welcome to prove me wrong and convince me of it's amazing usability and tell me why I should consider keybinding it when I already have a ton of stuff keybound as it is.

[Serendepityz]

^ I cant find the reason to use clash on any encounter when theres options more viable

[Deleted]

I don't see the reason for not having something on your bars, if you put it there, it's there when you need it...maybe it's my pvping past but I've always just keybound everything since TBC. Including profession things like engineering or my mount etc and I still don't run out of good binds

[lokatii]

I don't see the reason for not having something on your bars, if you put it there, it's there when you need it...maybe it's my pvping past but I've always just keybound everything since TBC. Including profession things like engineering or my mount etc and I still don't run out of good binds

Yeah I'm the same way. Personally I hate how buggy clash is. I've had it charge towards something and then not stun it a lot. Back on topic though, I have it keybound but its pretty rare aside from like challenge modes that I use it. I typically try to not mess with my keybinds much because I don't want to develop muscle memory for a spell that is no longer there when I actually do need it.

[Laguerra]

It is if they get rid of dodge/parry as a whole and make stats like Haste/Crit fill in those gaps. Then it serves two purposes, damage and mitigation.

Haste = Dodge
Crit = Parry
Mastery = whatever they want mastery to be.

There are things they can incorporate, but they are either too lazy, or too stubborn to implement.

Personally i would like to see the opposite. Implimenting Dodge Parry. I know that the tank classes are different, but i dont feel very "tanky", when going for Crit or haste compared to going for a stat called Dodge or Parry. I know what these stats does to you, but again, it does not feel like a tank stat.

[Vargarii]

Personally i would like to see the opposite. Implimenting Dodge Parry. I know that the tank classes are different, but i dont feel very "tanky", when going for Crit or haste compared to going for a stat called Dodge or Parry. I know what these stats does to you, but again, it does not feel like a tank stat.

How does this stop you from feeling tanky? I might hit harder because of the way I gear, and the way my class works, but the active mitigation makes me feel plenty "tanky". Gearing with stats the way brewmasters do has nothing to do with how tanky you feel, imo.

That's just your personal feelings keeping you hooked on those stats because you feel a tank should use them. If all thanks had their mitigation tied to abilities, they could fulfill their role, feel "tanky" and never look back at gearing around an extra 2 stats.

/edit it would also tie ability to tanking much more strongly, which I feel like the role needs. I would love for all tank classes to be able to set players apart the way brewmasters do. It's a much less clear area than it is for healers and dps in many cases, it seems.

[Inthislzon]

Indeed, i love the way we tank, i tanked 7/7 H:FL and 8/8 HS with a DK stacking haste and mastery. My reasoning was that more haste = more runes = more deathstrikes, and my deathstrikes gave bigger absorbs due to mastery. It's mostly the same now.

And before anyone jumps on the "DK's were SO OP at FL/DS" yes, good DK's were unkillable, due EXACTLY to how active mitigation works. And that kinda "proves" why mitigating damage via skills is WAY better than relying on parry and dodge from gear.

EDIT: I just remembered tanking on ICC with a paladin. Oh yes i got to CTC, may as well AFK now and come back from time to time to hit a couple skills for agro.

[Hinalover]

Personally i would like to see the opposite. Implimenting Dodge Parry. I know that the tank classes are different, but i dont feel very "tanky", when going for Crit or haste compared to going for a stat called Dodge or Parry. I know what these stats does to you, but again, it does not feel like a tank stat.

I would love for Blizzard to make Dodge and Parry more appealing stats. I think part of the reason is that they screwed up the Dodge and Parry formulas when MoP hit that just made those stats not that appealing for most tanks. Sure the plate classes will take them, but most prefer either a full haste build or a full mastery build with little to no Dodge or Parry in-between.

Maybe incorporating more dodge and parry into the active mitigation might help the situation. Such as "When you dodge or Parry, you lower the cooldown of X ability"

[Inthislzon]

Maybe incorporating more dodge and parry into the active mitigation might help the situation. Such as "When you dodge or Parry, you lower the cooldown of X ability"

The problem with that is that you either make the ability that gets the cooldown reduced really strong, then forcing everyone to stack avoidance, or useless, making everyone neglect avoidance.

Balance is quite hard to accomplish, and something like monks (crit for stacks of brew that boost your dodge) or DKs (mastery for bigger shields with some haste for rune-regen) is both easier to balance AND easier to itemize for. Simply removing dodge and parry will do, and maybe armor can be brought back for some "passive" mitigation, taking the spot of dodge and parry. And also give plate DPS some kind of passive like "you get X ap for every Y bonus armor" so they can use the gear for DPSing too, provided nothing else drops

[cyqu]

You serious?

Says the monk tank. Really if I were a warrior I'd be a little bit insulted to see monks complaining about wanting to get buffed up to Paladins. You may not have it as good as the overpowered paladins, but you're only so far removed when the other tanks are just an entirely different league.

are you daft? he doesn't say anything about buffing us. hes talking about buffing other tanks to our level and lowering paladins.

[George Costanza]

The cooldown reduction is probably the most usefull for rogues or fury warriors afaik... Reduced CD on vanish killing spree Adrenaline rush shadow dance shadowblades among others = sick.

[SurrealNight]

And before anyone jumps on the "DK's were SO OP at FL/DS" yes, good DK's were unkillable, due EXACTLY to how active mitigation works. And that kinda "proves" why mitigating damage via skills is WAY better than relying on parry and dodge from gear.

DK's had a pretty dark spot in early FL until Blizz coughed out the armor/HP buff. Curious to see if T16 causes a repeat. DK's have relatively poor CTC.

Monk's are so strong because your CTC = shuffle up %. Being able to know you are going to reduce X% of all incoming physical damage is extremely powerful. There is only a couple of boss abilities that isn't auto hit (Snapping Bite, Frigid Assault) so parry/dodge really only help smooth out damage (Which BrM has a lot of as well) but it's not a very sexy mechanic because it's so behind the scenes.

[Biggety]

/edit it would also tie ability to tanking much more strongly, which I feel like the role needs. I would love for all tank classes to be able to set players apart the way brewmasters do. It's a much less clear area than it is for healers and dps in many cases, it seems.

This is the biggest reason why I play brewmaster. I quit WoW mid firelands while playing my warrior who was my tank from vanilla onward. Other than moving out of void zones and using shield wall for the ubiquitous "boss hits big ability" moments, there was next to nothing I could do to help healers with my green bar. Threat was a non-issue. The only difference between tanks was item level. Tanking was boring and passive.

I have tried tanking on the warrior since MoP. It is certainly improved from the cataclysm model, but the floor is still pretty low. For my warrior, the delta in damage taken with active mitigation up and without is nowhere near as steep as it is for a monk, and thus less punishing for poor play.

Changing stats away from parry/dodge would help, and not just in allowing gear to work for dps and tanking, a la agility tanks. Changing damaging abilities to activate shield block/barrier would be the next step in the right direction. Bake block into heroic strike, for instance. That would make heroic strike procs more valuable rather than just a button you press to get rid of the proc graphic on your screen. Ditto for druids and maul.

[Hinalover]

Changing stats away from parry/dodge would help, and not just in allowing gear to work for dps and tanking, a la agility tanks. Changing damaging abilities to activate shield block/barrier would be the next step in the right direction. Bake block into heroic strike, for instance. That would make heroic strike procs more valuable rather than just a button you press to get rid of the proc graphic on your screen. Ditto for druids and maul.

Actually they already changed Maul for Druids into something meaningful. Maul is now used (once Tooth and Claw procs) to provide a damage reduction on the next ability. This actually increased the viability of haste for them (though still nowhere near as viable as crit but Haste was VERY LOW on the stat values prior to 5.1 when Tooth and Claw was added).