I feel like Rogues are horrible in Heroic Scenarios.

[Verain]

I'm going to break this down really simple for most of you:

Death Knights, Feral Druids, Warlocks, Warriors, Ret Paladins etc. are all capable of tanking Heroics scenarios while DPS'ing. Rogues are not.

I just really disagree with this. With feint+elusiveness+feint glyph, I have no problem "tanking" many of the mobs, and with evasion I can normally take a shit lot at once. Throw in nerve strike and either paralytic or prey on the weak and kidney shot becomes an absolutely devastating tool to use both for tanking and dps synergy, and your enemies shouldn't be hurting you much at all.

Telling me that I am bad at the game and need to learn to avoid damage has absolutely nothing to do with my class. Avoiding obvious AOE applies to every player in a Heroic Scenario, and not just Rogues.

A lot of the aoe is telegraphed, as you notice, but I do often find myself standing in it until the last second to maximize damage. If you are avoiding the obvious aoe, it sounds like your complaint is that you are dying to mobs.

Nor is the ability to do so uniquely a Rogue trait.

No, but feint is pretty damned helpful if you have to stay in an aoe, and cloak has a short cooldown and can be used to immune many things (even physical hits, with the half second immunity)

A lot of your advice looks good on paper but is not even realistic. When a main problem with my rogue is not even being able to get into melee range due to massive AOE such as detonate, or cannon balls, suggesting that I should be landing a lot more gouges and blinds on mobs who in addition to being in a danger zone, also have two DPS wailing on them, it really makes me wonder if you've ever tried a Heroic Scenario with a non cookie cutter compilation.

I will admit to often grouping with other skilled players, and sometimes I've gone in with a healer or a tank (never both), but much of my scenarios have just been trip deeps. I think triple rogue would be challenging, but not if every rogue's stuns only DRed with his own, for instance.

The same thing applies when I'm running a heroic Scenario on another character. Why in the heck would I ever invite a Rogue who will likely have no uptime on target, and who is way more likely to get killed over any other DPS class in the game who not only have higher DPS due to 100% uptime on target, but can also probably help tank the mob, also offer heals, Bloodlust/Time Warp/Heroism, battle res, or the ability to kite adds?

I'm top dps by a year and a half, and these problems you have sound totally foreign to me, so you'd do well to invite MY rogue. YOU can get on your healer!


Sigh. I don't know what to say. You sound really frustrated. Could you fraps or something? You sound like are so on top of encounter mechanics that you are outright insulted at the advice most posters bring up, and that even though you dodge everything you still die and don't feel like you have the same class power as a ranged, healer, or tank. To a degree I would agree that this could be an issue, but like- the rogue toolkit all actually WORKS in a heroic scenario. Mobs can be stunned. The stun can make them take extra damage, a unique "raid buff". After the stun they deal half damage. Gouge can stop casts, and can be talented to be free. Killing Spree and AR/Blades both offer really amazing damage burst, and blade flurry often works wonderful. Evasion is amazing, feint works on lots, elusiveness is great.

Maybe try burst of speed? I always use burst of speed in those things, it lets me kite if I need to be out of something's range.


I feel guilty on my rogue in these things man. Maybe your gear is a lot lower ilvl than mine or something?

---------- Post added 2013-07-01 at 12:32 PM ----------

Marked for death is pretty awesome in a heroic scenario and makes fast target switching pretty cool. Spamming 5 pt. envenoms is awesome.


Oh and btw saying that an ele shaman is beating you in damage on trash is like saying the sky is up or water is wet. Chain lightning is OP as hell on trash and probably the strongest single spell period in that category.

I want to add that when they gave us this blade flurry, it really changed from top 2 dps niche to "fighting for like third place on 5 mobs". The thing is, you can fight this dps on five sustained clumped mobs if you are willing to AR/blades, but it is CLEAR that this is a sustained and powerful niche for eles. If you have an ele shaman, you can probably just go mutilate and let the shaman chew the adds up for you (maybe fan to get the +5% damage up). If you don't, being combat is probably better, because you can do that job great too, but BOTH of you doing it is probably a waste.

Also agreeing with the marked for death comment- it is 100% your T90 talent in every scenario. If you are aggressive, you can switch to ST where appropriate or anti as you hit a boss who is friendly to that, but I sit on mfd 100% in every h. scenario.

[Terahertz]

I'm going to break this down really simple for most of you:

Death Knights, Feral Druids, Warlocks, Warriors, Ret Paladins etc. are all capable of tanking Heroics scenarios while DPS'ing. Rogues are not.

Mage, Spriest, Warlock, Hunter, Boomkin, Elemental Shaman etc. are all capable of kiting Heroic Scenarios. Rogues are not.

Telling me that I am bad at the game and need to learn to avoid damage has absolutely nothing to do with my class. Avoiding obvious AOE applies to every player in a Heroic Scenario, and not just Rogues. Nor is the ability to do so uniquely a Rogue trait. A lot of your advice looks good on paper but is not even realistic. When a main problem with my rogue is not even being able to get into melee range due to massive AOE such as detonate, or cannon balls, suggesting that I should be landing a lot more gouges and blinds on mobs who in addition to being in a danger zone, also have two DPS wailing on them, it really makes me wonder if you've ever tried a Heroic Scenario with a non cookie cutter compilation.

And for the record, I have plenty of timed bonus runs, and am usually one of the only people left alive at the end of the final encounters, so telling me I am bad is really just offensive. However, it is important to note that my success is literally always reliant on another class such as a Warlock, or Holy Paladin keeping me alive. I cannot do this, or offer near the same level of support to my group as the other classes can, and because of this I feel like a liability. Suggesting that Feint really helps my Boomkin out is laughable.

The same thing applies when I'm running a heroic Scenario on another character. Why in the heck would I ever invite a Rogue who will likely have no uptime on target, and who is way more likely to get killed over any other DPS class in the game who not only have higher DPS due to 100% uptime on target, but can also probably help tank the mob, also offer heals, Bloodlust/Time Warp/Heroism, battle res, or the ability to kite adds?

But what about other group utility talents like Nerve Strike and Pray on the Weak? Those should help the group in general considering most bosses are susceptable to CC. Also, what about Feint? Talented Feint + Feint AoE dmg reduction nets in at least 60-70% reduced dmg taken from AoE.

[Verain]

But what about other group utility talents like Nerve Strike and Pray on the Weak? Those should help the group in general considering most bosses are susceptable to CC. Also, what about Feint? Talented Feint + Feint AoE dmg reduction nets in at least 60-70% reduced dmg taken from AoE.

Nerve Strike is great for tanking, and Prey is great for extra dps, and both can be taken, making kidney shot dire indeed to these mobs. I can also say that paralytic is pretty great disruption, even if it never procs during a mob trying to use an ability, which it totally does a lot!

Elufeint works as 0.5 x 0.7 = 0.35 damage taken = 65% reduction from area effects.

This is great, but I will say that most aoe in heroic scenarios is avoidable. Certainly this gives you a second or third chance at it though!

[Deleted]

I've tanked most hc scenarios I've been to, and as far as utility goes, the smaller the group the better, for rogues. Make full use of your arse(nal).

[Warstar]

Talents goes I usually go:
Shadow Focus cause duh.

Combat Readiness since I like the shield wall ability and it's just a bad habit from raiding but unless it's a big mob which a cheap shot will help with I always open with mutilate from stealth. So I just wouldn't get much out of Nerve Strike but the surviviablity from Combat Readiness in a pinch is nice.

Leeching poison since in a scenario without a healer topping you of it actually heals nicely and isn't 90% over healing like it is in a raid.

Burst of Speed is awesome. My go to talent in general since it'll never drop you through the floor of the world like shadow step does.

Dirty Tricks over Prey on the Weak since I use gouge a shit ton to interrupt mobs casting and it turns gouge into another free kick ability.

And then Marked for Death because rapid target changing makes it amazing. Hell even on a boss fight it's technically the highest dps talent in a perfect world although realistically anticipation is it's still a strong talent even for a long boss fight.

And, like every rogue has said in this thread: heroic scenarios are easy and rogues are 100% fine and do a great job. Heroic scenarios are meant to be a little bit difficult and have a high chance to kill you. Maybe you just have to realize that you're just not playing your class right. Comparing a rogue to a dk is not a fair comparison because DKs are an easier class to play. If you think playing a rogue is too hard for you then just stick with your DK. If everyone says something different than you and no one agrees you might have to come to the conclusion that you're wrong.

[achromatickang]

I just really disagree with this. With feint+elusiveness+feint glyph, I have no problem "tanking" many of the mobs

I should make a video of me feint tanking mobs in Heroic Scenarios and post it just for lols, but I would actually feel bad for my group when I died to the first wave of trash mobs my group came across. Or is this with a healer spamming heals on you? Once again, I agree that with tanks/healers, Rogues are fine, but we're the only DPS class who doesn't offer anything to a triple DPS crew.

[Kael]

Telling me that I am bad at the game and need to learn to avoid damage has absolutely nothing to do with my class. Avoiding obvious AOE applies to every player in a Heroic Scenario, and not just Rogues. Nor is the ability to do so uniquely a Rogue trait. A lot of your advice looks good on paper but is not even realistic. When a main problem with my rogue is not even being able to get into melee range due to massive AOE such as detonate, or cannon balls, suggesting that I should be landing a lot more gouges and blinds on mobs who in addition to being in a danger zone, also have two DPS wailing on them, it really makes me wonder if you've ever tried a Heroic Scenario with a non cookie cutter compilation.

And for the record, I have plenty of timed bonus runs, and am usually one of the only people left alive at the end of the final encounters, so telling me I am bad is really just offensive. However, it is important to note that my success is literally always reliant on another class such as a Warlock, or Holy Paladin keeping me alive. I cannot do this, or offer near the same level of support to my group as the other classes can, and because of this I feel like a liability. Suggesting that Feint really helps my Boomkin out is laughable.

If you think someone has been directly flaming you, please report the posts so we take a good long look at them. If people are just disagreeing because they don't think rogues are weak, they're not calling you bad, just disagreeing. Most of us find rogues to be just fine in PvE content.

To answer the few parts not responded to: gouge is just another casting interrupt when you're fighting one target; incapacitates work as interrupts regardless of how short the duration. Blind should only ever be used if you need to reduce the # of targets, i.e. if you pulled adds during Blood in the Snow and you're running 3-DPS who don't severely outgear it. With a tank, a healer, or outgearing it, CC shouldn't be necessary. If you're having issues with DPS (from time in melee), go for Shuriken Toss and pretend you're ranged - it's not the same DPS, but we're not talking about halving your output either.

Why bring a rogue? why not? I don't check the class, spec, or gear of a third person when I put together a H Scenario even in random trade on a lower-geared alt (from 480-500 I'd probably check, but after that, not really). I've done just about every comp (I haven't run 3-tanks yet), and I've never had a serious problem anywhere... Blood in the Snow can be a real challenge if the people you run with aren't too bright and you're running undergeared 3-DPS, but I can't imagine where else you'd see issues. As Verain said, perhaps you'd point out where exactly you're having problems, or record a video of it to analyze?

[Deleted]

that's what I like about rogues , we are thieves and cut throats , we don't heal we don't care about other people that much . we are there for ourselves and with whatever loot we can steal and pickpocket :P
I don't have much problems in HC scenarios and I regularly run them with a few guild mates and sometimes we do 3 dps or 2 dps and a tank , the 3 dps team normally is mage , rogue and palla. if u just keep an eye out for healing orbs and stuff that blizz has left hanging around the place its not to much of a problem

[Deleted]

Many of these responses offer helpful and comprehensive advice on how to play a rogue optimally in HC Scenarios.

There's no doubt that rogues can do well in them, but here is the crux - They do well if played well and are punished harshly if they don't.
Suggestions like, you wont take damage if you don't stand in fire/ don't miss an interrupt and cc dangerous mobs can pretty much be applied to all classes.
If ANY class is played optimally, then hc scenarios are a joke, rogues included.

But the average player WILL stand in the fire several times, they WILL fail to CC and sometimes forget their defensive CD's. It's a fact that a low to averagely skilled player on a rogue will suffer more than pretty much every other class for mistakes. Their lack of clutch heals which almost every other class currently offers seems the most obvious disadvantage to me. Also, yes, we have a lot of CC, but especially at lower gear levels the effect of constantly using them, in addition to our active damage reduction skill, significantly reduces damage output. Again, this is something I feel effects other classes generally to a far lesser degree.
I know many players are fine with this, and can simply recommend L2P as a solution, but such a stance at least to me seems a little elitist and does nothing to attract new blood into the class.

[Verain]

They do well if played well and are punished harshly if they don't.

If the argument is, hey, healers have some advantages because they can heal, sure, yea.

If ANY class is played optimally, then hc scenarios are a joke, rogues included.

But I tend to rock meters in those things. If you took my group and scaled our gear down (or the enemies up) to where it was legit progressiony content, I feel that my damage would help us get those timed things if it was up for debate.

It's a fact that a low to averagely skilled player on a rogue will suffer more than pretty much every other class for mistakes.

That honestly could be the case. But I don't think it requires buffs to the class.

I will say this: If the rogue class had a tank or heal spec, it would probably have an easier time in heroic scenarios at low gear levels or average skill levels. But as long as rogues remain a pure class, I don't think that's really a bad thing, that we don't have tank and heal powers.

Also, yes, we have a lot of CC, but especially at lower gear levels the effect of constantly using them, in addition to our active damage reduction skill, significantly reduces damage output.

Kidney shot is the biggest culprit- it costs both combo points and a cooldown. Kidney shot probably needs to do damage equal to like 1/3rd an eviscerate- but- and this is important- if you run nerve strike, you'll greatly reduce the incoming damage after it ends (and it's 6 seconds, not many stuns have that, and NO other stuns are 6 seconds with a 20 second cooldown). If you run prey on the weak, you actually BOOST damage- so part of your dps is recorded with your scenariomates under recount, but it doesn't change that YOU ability did that damage. I feel these are rather acceptable bonuses in scenarios, where the mobs will gleefully spam their most powerful abilities into you when they have a -50% done damage debuff, and your friends can capitilize on +10% damage taken. That plus the incredible marked for death really allows you to shut down mobs fast- at low gear levels that is even more important, as it promptly reduced incoming damage and control effects.

These are abilities that I feel rogues bring and others don't. The ability to vanish is also pretty damned clutch, as is the 1 minute cloak.

I know many players are fine with this, and can simply recommend L2P as a solution, but such a stance at least to me seems a little elitist and does nothing to attract new blood into the class.

My attitude is definitely elitist to a degree. I do think rogues should be rewarded for playing correctly more than other classes, which can be rephrased to mean that I'm fine with a rogue who "plays like a warrior" having a harder time of things.

BUT- I do agree that this is an issue likely behind the popularity of the rogue class. I observed some time ago that rogues are USELESS and DESPISED by the rest of WoW in PvE until:

1)- You hit max level. Pre-90, you can't do damage in content anywhere close to similarly geared characters. Through most of the game, the tank outdamages you by an absurd amount. You will be out damaged by other melee who have cooldown based buttons, ranged will enjoy both more uptime and strangely broken low level math (the arcane mage who never presses anything but arcane blast, for instance, because mana is barely a thing at low levels), and you will be missing core parts of your rotation for pretty much ever. You have a bunch of ramp up abilities in a burst game, and your burst abilities are on long timers, or require exceptional uptime to make good use of. I have a hard time topping meters in low level dungeons on a rogue (assuming my randoms aren't 100% derp, and actually have some of the heirlooms), and I'm in full heirlooms, enchanted, and have been playing rogue main since vanilla- on my other alts, it's np. Or I can contribute by healing, or offtanking, or off healing.

2)- You have gear. While you levelled, your damage was below the tank. Now it continues to be so. Marked for Death gives you some amount of trickery, as can blade flurry, but overall, you'll need some gear to be able to contribute at all.

These things just aren't the case for other classes. So in this area, I do agree a bit- rogues could have a higher skill floor in pve, or not be so insanely gear dependent (leveling at 89 in dread wastes was really punishing on Verain, but my alts are not as hurt).



But the overall thesis- that rogues are not acceptable in heroic scenarios, or that we don't get compensated for our "if you play wrong, you get punished" by a lot more of "but if you play right, you blow everything up and do tons of damage"- I just disagree with. I think rogues are very strong in this content.

[Demeia]

There's no scenario event where I go "god, I wish I were a melee right now" for any reason at all (except maybe shotgun on the boat? Deal?), and there are too many mechanics that are disproportionately more work to deal with as melee - or ONLY affect melee, like the glacial totem. That's why those are the only 2 bosses I have a problem with; I think the rest pretty much require the same effort from all melee/ranged regardless of from where they attack.

Exactly! I did a scenario with my baby rogue, when my gear was really pathetic, with two warriors--the goblin one--and it was sad. They couldn't take the hits, I couldn't keep the stacks off the mini-bosses, so they ended up taunting them and running around in circles while I slowly whittled them down.

As for the high seas, I just think fighting on a boat is bad design. Their boats aren't big enough, damnit, even if they are absolutely to scale. If they need to put us on a boat, put us on a gunship.

Unless they award cool leather pirate transmog gear, in which case, I'll put up with most anything.

[Raugnaut]

OP is right. Ranged can just cc/snare mobs (even many of bosses can be affected by cc/snares) and ignore half (if not all) of their idiotic mechanics. Some mobs are made just entirely to say "if you play melee dps in this game - you are doing it wrong", like those big mobs in ragefire scenario, which hit in melee like trucks, and their damage output increases over time. Sucks as melee to no end. Meanwhile ranged can just snare/cc this mob and nuke. Banners in Dun Morogh scenario? Lol-pewpew by ranged. However melee will get global'd on his way to banner.

But that's what happens when you start overloading the game with way too much arcade mechanics.

Having said this, hc scenarios are quite easy, just are way too much arcade-based. And if you happen to go there with 3 melee - it will be horrible experience. Ranged dps decreases arcade "difficulty" of scenarios by a whole lot.

If you aren't shooting the banner with teh shots, you are doing it wrong.

Banners are essentially immune to all forms of damage except direct hits- bleeds, dots, and AoEs are unable to damage them.

Shots one shot banners.

[Mormolyce]

Actually H Scens are the first time I get to use half my toolkit in PVE. Though I do miss the offheals I have on my Ele shammy.

In addition to all the above, don't forget you can always Vanish and ToT someone with better tanking abilities :P

---------- Post added 2013-07-02 at 06:00 AM ----------

Banners in Dun Morogh scenario? Lol-pewpew by ranged. However melee will get global'd on his way to banner.

I've never had a problem with them, you should be using the Shoot ability the scenario gives you on them anyway.

[Warstar]

If you aren't shooting the banner with teh shots, you are doing it wrong.

Banners are essentially immune to all forms of damage except direct hits- bleeds, dots, and AoEs are unable to damage them.

Shots one shot banners.

I find a marked for death envenom takes them out pretty fast too.

[Raugnaut]

I find a marked for death envenom takes them out pretty fast too.

If you get pulled into combat before you can shoot em, sure, use that. But shots on the banner remove the 25% damage buff and 25% less damage taken buff from the mobs.

[nexos10]

got to know what your doing on the Rogue to be sure. I go with my group and im the one doing most of the carrying.